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Crashed - who screwed up?

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Crashed - who screwed up?

Old 09-09-21, 04:45 PM
  #126  
Maelochs
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^ yeah, but I did not see any reference to multi-use paths, and the references to sidewalks were to sidewalks adjoining roads, not specialty paths where cycling was an expected use.
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Old 09-09-21, 04:48 PM
  #127  
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Anyway ... aren't they all figures of speech? My bikes are not "human-powered." I am human-powered, the bikes have no power whatsoever. They just sit there. Even when I ride it the bike has no power, it is merely a machine for changing directions of motion of my body, powered by my very nearly human self.

Now if I rode on a human who rode on a bike .....
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Old 09-09-21, 05:11 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
^ yeah, but I did not see any reference to multi-use paths, and the references to sidewalks were to sidewalks adjoining roads, not specialty paths where cycling was an expected use.

The sidewalks don't have to adjoin roads, you're mixing up the crosswalk provision. They're separate clauses.

I have been through much of the code and I don't think it defines what paths are legally. It is quite clear however that they definitely are not roads or highways per the code.
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Old 09-09-21, 09:57 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by grizzly59 View Post
When I ride on the local MUP, calling "passing on your left" gets a startle response and they swerve left 1 time every 15 or so.
yep.

I switched to saying “Good Morning!” or whatever, then see which way they go.

… or don’t go, as is often the case with their earbuds blasting
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Old 09-10-21, 03:24 AM
  #130  
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@livedarklions,

I think you missed my point there .... we are getting into debating minutia, like the meaning of a figure of speech.

You have decided that a bike is not a car .... well, no one is arguing. I am saying that the laws apply to bike s and cars, even if they are separate .... well the text supports that interpretation .... but if we pick individual sentences and try to cobble together a meaning which suits our argument, we are focused on winning the argument, not finding the facts.

Facts seem to be that neither of us can find exactly where an MUP fits into these road codes, and whether road or sidewalk rules would apply. Facts also seem to be that at no pint is there any mention of a cyclist or the operator of any other sort of vehicle needing to give an audible warning before overtaking .... but that only means that we might not have found one. And for all we know there is a big signboard listing the rules of that Specific MUP at every entrance---i have seen such things so it is not impossible .... but WHO CARES.???

You win. Whether or not you have facts on your side you win. You have picked more nits.

Nits are louse eggs. I hope you raise your cop successfully, and provide them with a good home. Just keep them off the MUPs
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Old 09-10-21, 05:18 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
@livedarklions,

I think you missed my point there .... we are getting into debating minutia, like the meaning of a figure of speech.

You have decided that a bike is not a car .... well, no one is arguing. I am saying that the laws apply to bike s and cars, even if they are separate .... well the text supports that interpretation .... but if we pick individual sentences and try to cobble together a meaning which suits our argument, we are focused on winning the argument, not finding the facts.

Facts seem to be that neither of us can find exactly where an MUP fits into these road codes, and whether road or sidewalk rules would apply. Facts also seem to be that at no pint is there any mention of a cyclist or the operator of any other sort of vehicle needing to give an audible warning before overtaking .... but that only means that we might not have found one. And for all we know there is a big signboard listing the rules of that Specific MUP at every entrance---i have seen such things so it is not impossible .... but WHO CARES.???

You win. Whether or not you have facts on your side you win. You have picked more nits.

Nits are louse eggs. I hope you raise your cop successfully, and provide them with a good home. Just keep them off the MUPs
I have to say I find this pretty obnoxious. You asked for the statute, you argued with me by producing other irrelevant laws, and I showed you why they're irrelevant. You wanted the quibble, I actually put some time in finding the relevant law, and I think it's painfully obvious that a paved "trail" reserved for walkers and bikes is legally a sidewalk in the absence of any other legal specification.

On the practical side, I also think it's odd to complain that people act like you're not there when you pass silently. Preventing that is exactly why announce rules exist. If you don't announce, you're asking for exactly this incident.

I agree your attempt at legal argumentation was lousy. Mine wasn't.
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Old 09-10-21, 05:22 AM
  #132  
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Now that we have gone into the weeds about legal nomenclature and such, this seems like a thread that should be in A&S.

Moved here from General Cycling
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Old 09-10-21, 05:31 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by gpburdell View Post
yep.

I switched to saying “Good Morning!” or whatever, then see which way they go.

… or don’t go, as is often the case with their earbuds blasting

I think it's the timing rather than the words that matter. I try to announce early enough so that if there's a startle response, they have time to adjust. It's also less startling than doing it when you're almost there already.

I say good morning after a startle response because I want to make clear I wasn't being hostile. They're usually apologizing at that point, and I think the show of goodwill is a good idea at that point.
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Old 09-10-21, 07:19 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think it's the timing rather than the words that matter. I try to announce early enough so that if there's a startle response, they have time to adjust. It's also less startling than doing it when you're almost there already.

I say good morning after a startle response because I want to make clear I wasn't being hostile. They're usually apologizing at that point, and I think the show of goodwill is a good idea at that point.
Yeah, need to announce early enough to give time for them to react, assess, and respond.

In my experience while sidewalk running, a lot of pedestrians react to "On your left" as a directive to go to their left. Don't see this quite as often on bike on a MUP but still, given the potential confusion I personally prefer the more neutral announcement and see which way they choose to go.

As you imply, a bit of kindness helps attitudes towards the next cyclist or runner - so I try to leave them with a friendly thank you.

To go back on topic - wasn't there to see the OP's incident so I can't truly assess. IMHO though we all each have some level of responsibility not to crash into someone else; and while announcing one's presence before overtaking is good practice, we cannot depend on others to do so. Just as we can't depend on others not to do something unexpected such as pulling a u-turn without a shoulder check.
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Old 09-10-21, 10:20 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by gpburdell View Post
Yeah, need to announce early enough to give time for them to react, assess, and respond.

In my experience while sidewalk running, a lot of pedestrians react to "On your left" as a directive to go to their left. Don't see this quite as often on bike on a MUP but still, given the potential confusion I personally prefer the more neutral announcement and see which way they choose to go.

As you imply, a bit of kindness helps attitudes towards the next cyclist or runner - so I try to leave them with a friendly thank you.

To go back on topic - wasn't there to see the OP's incident so I can't truly assess. IMHO though we all each have some level of responsibility not to crash into someone else; and while announcing one's presence before overtaking is good practice, we cannot depend on others to do so. Just as we can't depend on others not to do something unexpected such as pulling a u-turn without a shoulder check.

I agree with all of that. I'm entirely basing my statements about OP's failure to announce on OP's own version of events. Nowhere have I stated that I thought doing a UTurn without looking was at all acceptable. If the Uturner had asked "who's at fault", my answer would still be you should have looked and OP should have announced. I think we are in total agreement.

I use "passing on your left" BTW, the addition of the verb seems to clarify it. "On your left" is slightly ambiguous.

Weirdly, when repeated "passing on your left" produces no response, as sometimes happens, a "HELL--LO!" will usually get people to move. I can't fathom the psychology, and only know that it can work because I got frustrated enough to do the sarcastic method.

I don't ride on sidewalks so I really can't compare
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Old 09-10-21, 11:26 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I agree with all of that. I'm entirely basing my statements about OP's failure to announce on OP's own version of events. Nowhere have I stated that I thought doing a UTurn without looking was at all acceptable. If the Uturner had asked "who's at fault", my answer would still be you should have looked and OP should have announced. I think we are in total agreement.

I use "passing on your left" BTW, the addition of the verb seems to clarify it. "On your left" is slightly ambiguous.

Weirdly, when repeated "passing on your left" produces no response, as sometimes happens, a "HELL--LO!" will usually get people to move. I can't fathom the psychology, and only know that it can work because I got frustrated enough to do the sarcastic method.

I don't ride on sidewalks so I really can't compare
I apologize that I was unclear. The last paragraph of my post was general commentary on the OP's scenario and was not directed at you or anything you've written.

Sidewalks? I'm on them when running.
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Old 09-10-21, 12:09 PM
  #137  
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Sidewalks are where I struggle. When my kids are with me, I try to get them to ride with me in the street because it's safer. When my wife rides with the kids, she tries to get them to all ride together (her too) on the sidewalk. I've tried explaining how the street (within our subdivision, not busy roads) is safer because its where cars are looking for other users and not whipping out of their driveways without looking at the sidewalk or crosswalk for fast moving things, but it's a fight I can't win and stopped having for the peace of our marriage.
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Old 09-10-21, 12:33 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by gpburdell View Post
I apologize that I was unclear. The last paragraph of my post was general commentary on the OP's scenario and was not directed at you or anything you've written.

Sidewalks? I'm on them when running.

No, nothing to apologize for. I agree we weren't there, but I think OP's scenario did allow us to make some judgments. I was just explaining that you and I took a slightly different route and ended up in the same place. Alas, lack of ability to easily read each other's tone in this medium may have made that sound like I was being defensive. I actually find your reluctance to make judgments refreshing. I've pretty much given up on the "what would you do" anecdote because I got so sick of people rewriting the scenarios to fit their preconceived notions of good guys and bad guys. You ever want to see people rewrite your story in this way, discuss a random lunge at yourself by a dog on a MUP. Posters will come out of the woodwork telling you how you must have provoked poor old Fido. An equal number will rewrite the scenario so you're crazy if you didn't go punch the owner in the face.

I totally misread your statement about sidewalk running as "sidewalk riding", so I think I owe you the apology.
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Old 09-10-21, 12:57 PM
  #139  
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livedarklions no apology needed, I didn't sense any negativity on your part regarding sidewalks and bicycles.

IMHO there are times and places where that may be the least-risk option in a particular rider's mind, and if we've not been in those exact situations it is unfair to cast aspersions (again, IMHO). They're also a mixed bag with their own inherent risks and challenges, such as driveway cross-traffic not looking for anyone faster than a walker as himespau illustrates. (these and subdivision entrances are a danger zone, particularly when going against traffic, since drivers seldom look "downstream" before rolling / turning to the right).
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Old 09-10-21, 01:38 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by gpburdell View Post
livedarklions no apology needed, I didn't sense any negativity on your part regarding sidewalks and bicycles.

IMHO there are times and places where that may be the least-risk option in a particular rider's mind, and if we've not been in those exact situations it is unfair to cast aspersions (again, IMHO). They're also a mixed bag with their own inherent risks and challenges, such as driveway cross-traffic not looking for anyone faster than a walker as himespau illustrates. (these and subdivision entrances are a danger zone, particularly when going against traffic, since drivers seldom look "downstream" before rolling / turning to the right).

Yeah, I wouldn't have volunteered my opinion if OP hadn't asked for it. I'm very big on situational awareness and a need to adapt to any combination of circumstances, so I have very few "always" recommendations. Announcing is one of the few exceptions because basically it has no downside. The driveway situation is exactly one of those "no fixed rule" things for me because there's so many variables involved. For me, I probably want to be about where the cars are parked before I approach a driveway like that, but that wouldn't be a hard and fast rule.

ETA: Oops got my threads mixed up--there was a picture in one of a driveway intersecting a bike lane that was between the curb and parked cars. My reference was to being about where that lane of parked cars was.

The picture:

Last edited by livedarklions; 09-10-21 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 09-10-21, 03:37 PM
  #141  
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An announcement might have made you look better, but doesn't guarantee that another rider won't pull a U-turn while you're overtaking. I announce all my passes loud and clearly and still have people U-turn at the worst possible time.

I give people more time and space than what seems necessary, but my significant other gets impatient with the way I overtake on MUPs and blames other people for all the near misses she has. She's not wrong.
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Old 09-11-21, 11:33 AM
  #142  
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Having thought about this for 4+ days and having read your responses, I'm about where I was when I started.

On one hand, I think the other rider was incredibly careless and thoughtless.

OTOH, I just never imagined that someone would do a u-turn without making sure it was safe to do so. I was unprepared to respond as quickly as I (think I) would have to other threats. THAT was a critical factor in the crash. If either of us had stopped, there would have been no collision.

What bothers me now are questions like:

- What other craziness am I unprepared for?
- How can I prepare for the totally unexpected?
- What's the proper time for announcing myself?
-Etc., etc., etc.

BTW, I went out yesterday and damn well said 'on your left' to everyone I passed (although I said 'Thanks' to the 2 guys walking abreast who looked back at the right time and shifted to single file). I was passed by only 2 riders - one announced himself, one didn't. Maybe the rider who said 'on your left' read this thread.
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Old 09-11-21, 01:47 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
What bothers me now are questions like:

- What other craziness am I unprepared for?
- How can I prepare for the totally unexpected?
- What's the proper time for announcing myself?
-Etc., etc., etc.
Yup.

To this day, I still hear the voices in my head from my driving instructors, shouting about how to guard against craziness, how to be prepared, thinking everyone's out to get you, can't see you, think like you're on a motorcycle and perpetually hidden by the other drivers' A-pillars, and so on.

What I try to do includes:

1. Unless people see me coming and are well-prepared for my passing them, pass at a speed that won't harm either of us if the other person does the mindlessly unconscionable act right at the most vile moment possible. On MUPs, that'll generally be passing them at less than 5mph. If there isn't much room at all, I'll rely on bell+shouting to ensure they're well aware prior to my attempting a pass. Else, I get off the MUP, onto the shoulder or grass (if any), and then pass there ... safely. Why? No telling what people are capable of doing.

2. Solid use of a loud bell and loud announcements where I am and what I'm intending to do, if they don't yet know I'm there. Some might view this as prickliness, yet it's nothing of the kind. It's warning of a pending dangerous situation that the others should be aware of.

My preference is to announce my being there, when approaching someone from behind where they don't yet see me, at least six or seven seconds prior to the pass. If they don't acknowledge and get "set" for a pass, then my speed drops and I'll pass very cautiously. On a very wide MUP, particularly one with hard-and-fast lane lines, I might well keep the speed up if it's clear the person is intent on remaining in the lane he/she's in.

About the only way I've ever been able to prepare for the unexpected is: expect it, always; and, keep proximity and passing speeds such that if something ugly does occur then it won't result in bad injuries. About the only exception is, when riding with someone I'm familiar with and where we know what the essential rules of the road are, in which case closer proximity and faster speeds might be fine. Otherwise, you effectively relegate all control to the other person, when you've no idea if they're head-in-the-clouds with music, on the phone, whatever.

JMO
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Old 09-11-21, 06:47 PM
  #144  
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I’m no expert on the technical rules, but it seems the other guy was more at fault than you.
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Old 09-11-21, 07:35 PM
  #145  
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I don't think there's any value in determining who screwed up. The value is in asking if you had to do it all over again, what would you do differently?
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Old 09-12-21, 09:56 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think it's the timing rather than the words that matter. I try to announce early enough so that if there's a startle response, they have time to adjust. It's also less startling than doing it when you're almost there already.

I say good morning after a startle response because I want to make clear I wasn't being hostile. They're usually apologizing at that point, and I think the show of goodwill is a good idea at that point.
I try to do it early, also, but I've been accused of having a quiet voice, and I find that's especially true outside. Then I have to decide: do I wait until I'm close enough to be audible at a reasonable "calling out" tone of voice (and not so far back that they move over and then wait... and wait...), or do I scream from further back and then the person gets mad because they think I'm being angry when in reality I'm just trying to be heard?


Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Sidewalks are where I struggle. When my kids are with me, I try to get them to ride with me in the street because it's safer. When my wife rides with the kids, she tries to get them to all ride together (her too) on the sidewalk. I've tried explaining how the street (within our subdivision, not busy roads) is safer because its where cars are looking for other users and not whipping out of their driveways without looking at the sidewalk or crosswalk for fast moving things, but it's a fight I can't win and stopped having for the peace of our marriage.
But it's also where drivers are looking for *large* vehicles that are faster-moving than 10 mph (or less)... not narrow "vehicles" barely wider than a person, that together with their rider may weigh less than many pedestrians alone, are difficult to see above parked cars lining the side of the road (or impossible, if they're kids), may be hugging the side of the road where drivers aren't looking, may be very erratic (especially if kids), etc.

I mean, if drivers allegedly aren't seeing a bike slightly taller than a person and moving slightly faster on the sidewalk, then they're certainly not seeing a bike much smaller and slower than a car on a street.
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Old 09-12-21, 07:39 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
I was tooling along on the Green Bay Trail in Winnetka (Illinois) yesterday at maybe 12-13 MPH. Coming up on a bench, the rider ahead of me moved to the right and slowed down. I moved left. I expected the rider was stopping, but rather hung a U-turn without signaling and without looking back. The rider saw me and panicked but did not stop. I panicked and braked, but we collided and both of us went down.

I got road rash, but my bike was fine. I had to do first aid because I'm on a blood thinner, and blood was flowing, but the first aid was effective. I also lost a hearing aid, which is annoying, but I'm insured against loss - one of the benefits of a Costco HA.

The other rider kept saying, 'You didn't say 'On your left'!'

Very few people around here give any warning at all. I'm usually one of them. I'd bet a lot the 2 guys who passed this rider 200 yards ahead of me didn't give any warning, because they didn't give me warning. I know the rider didn't signal or look back before turning.

Obviously I'd be better off if I had trusted the other rider and/or my assumptions less than I did, but how much of a beef do I have against a rider who apparently assumed it's OK to do a U-turn on a MUP without checking the environment?

TIA.
I've had something very similar happen - except we were both moving a little faster, shortly after a traffic light. I was close enough that I had to swerve left to avoid when he hit the brakes hard, then he swung left (wasn't u-turn, but taking a turn off the path to some unmarked shortcut) - we didn't go down, I hit brakes, turned so we hit shoulder to shoulder, and both ended up off the left of the path. He pulled kind of the same thing - "you didn't say you were on the left" - I said - "I wasn't passing until you braked and pulled right"....... I was probably following a little too close, but I was thinking about passing, we'd just pulled away from the road crossing a couple hundred meters before. Had basically just decided not to unless he slowed down, he had sped up to very close to the speed I wanted to go.

I'd say that in my case, I
  1. Was probably following a little too close (wasn't right on his wheel, but probably less than 2m back),
  2. Reacted pretty well to the two movements independently - first the unannounced sharp brake and pull to the right (moved to the left) and then the sharp left turn into me (hit brake and turn sharp left). When he made the first move I didn't actually brake, but covered the brake (hands on levers) so was able to brake quickly.
And luckily, both of us had good enough bike handling skill that neither of us went down.

I'd say the other rider did more wrong than my just following a little close, in
  1. Not signaling anything.
  2. Swinging way right before going left
  3. Not looking back (not necessary to my mind if he'd signaled left and moved to the left of the lane before turning, leaving a space to the right for me to pass, though I would probably have slowed when he signalled.)

Sounds like you had a bit more space than my scenario, but that just let the other rider get turned further so you had trouble clearing them. I think that moving behind them if you can is always the best bet if you can - the problem with that is, though, that if they see you and panic they'll often turn back into you. I think he did a lot more wrong than you did, and if you both had liability insurance companies that were going at it yours would probably win - but I think you probably could have avoided or mitigated better based on your description of the incident.
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Old 09-13-21, 07:39 AM
  #148  
gpburdell
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
What bothers me now are questions like:

- What other craziness am I unprepared for?
- How can I prepare for the totally unexpected?
- What's the proper time for announcing myself?
-Etc., etc., etc.
From back in my motorcycling days I carried two thoughts in mind:
- I am invisible
- Everyone else is trying to kill me

In practice, this means you assume nobody knows you're there until they show you otherwise. You also consider what others might do that'd mess up your day. Then adjust your speed/distance/etc to allow you time to react and avoid (or minimize) any potential encounter or collision.

Kid on a bike might swerve unexpectedly. Dog might see a Squirrel!!! and bolts across your path before their owner can react to shorten the leash. Another cyclist might slow and pull to the side before suddenly pull a u-turn without looking. Runner coming up on a puddle or mud patch might dodge to the left to avoid it. Walker or runner doesn't look before crossing to take a trail junction to the left - and never heard you announce yourself because of their music/earbuds. ... and so on and so forth

While it'd be nice if everyone sharing the roads or pathways would always be alert to the others around them, the reality is they frequently are oblivious and we have to allow for whatever they might do.

Last edited by gpburdell; 09-13-21 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 09-13-21, 11:23 AM
  #149  
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I think Garmin computers should have a bell feature. Press a button and it rings a loud bell so you don't have to yell every time "on your left!!"
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Old 09-13-21, 11:31 AM
  #150  
viffer
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
The other rider kept saying, 'You didn't say 'On your left'!'
I encountered one of these idiots on a paved trail last week. He was rolling along at around 12 or 13 mph and I passed him on the left slowly and carefully at around 14 or 15 mph. We never came close to touching, maybe 3 feet between us, but he goes off on me like I had committed the crime of the century by not say OYL. Mind you this is a very busy trail and you would be saying OYL every 30 seconds if you said it every time you came upon someone. Most people just naturally assume it’s busy so you shouldn’t be weaving back and forth and doing stupid dangerous unexpected things. Now I usually do say it when I see someone acting erratically up ahead but again it’s not practical to be saying it all the time. People would get annoyed at you for disrupting the peace. And again most people know better not to ride like a tool on the trail. But not this idiot.

Also my bike makes enough mechanical noise so that most people should hear me coming up from behind and this moron all but admitted he was wearing earbuds while riding.

Unfortunately you have no legal recourse but as far as fault goes, it’s not your job to look out for every person on the road who might suddenly make an unannounced u-turn without even looking back over their shoulder to see if the road is clear.

Last edited by viffer; 09-13-21 at 11:49 AM.
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