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How High Maintenance are Tubeless Tires Anyway?

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How High Maintenance are Tubeless Tires Anyway?

Old 09-27-21, 03:41 PM
  #101  
robertAltman
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Zipp, Giant and Enve are all currently pushing really wide hookless rims with 28mm-30mm tubeless tires at ~60psi as the future on the road.
Iím running 60/65 on my 30mm tires and Iím experimenting with dropping another 5 psi.
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Old 09-27-21, 03:45 PM
  #102  
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Yup, I'm running ~60psi on 28s with hookless Zipps. It's awesome, both for long solo rides and spirited group rides.
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Old 09-27-21, 03:52 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by robertAltman View Post
...I'm very glad to be running tubeless and would not switch back,
Yep, bought a new set of rim brake tubeless wheels for my Emonda and just waiting for the rear to come in. I have tubeless on my Domane, really like it, won't go back.

I am running 30mm Pirelli's on my Bontrager Pro 3V's which have a 25mm internal and generally run 58 to 62 based on conditions.
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Old 09-27-21, 04:00 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by LifeNovice1 View Post
Seems like if I get a flat on the road it WOULD be a pretty big deal to me. Trying to remove a presta stem AND putting a tube in a tire not meant for it AND trying to get a tubeless tire to go back on.
Carry a bacon strip kit for plugging holes in tubeless tire. That's if the puncture is too big for sealant to patch. That would be a large puncture. Large. Here's a link to one bacon strip product that explains how they work. tubeless tire plugs
This is REI.com https://www.rei.com/search?q=tubeless+tire+plugs
Tubeless tire plugs
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Old 09-27-21, 04:15 PM
  #105  
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Regarding plugging large tubeless tire punctures using what's often referred to as bacon strips, here's a link to low cost lightweight kit
Bacon strips
You Tube has basic tutorials for using bacon strips. They are easy to use.
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Old 09-28-21, 03:46 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Caliper View Post
Plenty of tubeless tire/rim combos will unseat on their own if the pressure gets too low.
For an example, go watch the olympic mountain biking - a guy lost his podium place from his tubeless tyre unseating far into the race.


Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post

But be warned! Some other people just seem to get into all sorts of **** trying to deal with tubeless flats!

Dynaplugs aren't sold locally to me, promoted or given out to new owners of bikes that come tubeless from the factory. Despite them apparently being the only way to fix a decent sized puncture in a tubeless road tyre.


Giant stores in the UK have started delivering bikes with tubeless already setup. But they don't teach the customer how it works, give them any spare sealant, plugs, boots etc.

That combined with their factory tyres being **** (and I assume they use some **** Giant brand sealant) means that the club I ride with has had 100% of punctures in the last 3 months be tubeless users.


None of them fixed themselves, none of the riders had plugs, boot, gloves, extra sealant etc. Each one was a mess for someone to fix with a new tube and took an age.

This is especially annoying for our club as we have lots of women riders who've bought Liv bikes (giant sub brand for women), and being unable to just fix a flat on their new setups without help did not go down well.


No tube users have had a puncture in that time - though of course this is likely due to better tyres & luck.


I generally get less than 1 puncture a year riding GP5000 and similar road tyres and can't see myself ever considering tubeless unless forced onto it by a new bike with hookless rims.
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Old 09-28-21, 04:16 AM
  #107  
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unseating ..

But why are mastic not used to prevent such issues. Seem like a straight forward solution. A TL tyre is not supposed to go on and off the rim all the time anyway. - Its supposed to be "self healing" or at worst be pluggable. The bead unseating is a catastrophe resulting in instant, complete air loss and not being able to road-side reinflate without a tube or a good CO2 inflator (with some luck). Gluing would likely prevent burping as well.

The tyre coming off also used to be a prime argument for running tubulars over clinchers, for safety. Assuming it was a real concern to begin with, simply mastic gluing one bead to the rim would seem like a workable solution, - that no-one ever proposed .. Why?

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Old 09-28-21, 04:55 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
For an example, go watch the olympic mountain biking - a guy lost his podium place from his tubeless tyre unseating far into the race.

Dynaplugs aren't sold locally to me, promoted or given out to new owners of bikes that come tubeless from the factory. Despite them apparently being the only way to fix a decent sized puncture in a tubeless road tyre.

Giant stores in the UK have started delivering bikes with tubeless already setup. But they don't teach the customer how it works, give them any spare sealant, plugs, boots etc.

That combined with their factory tyres being **** (and I assume they use some **** Giant brand sealant) means that the club I ride with has had 100% of punctures in the last 3 months be tubeless users.

None of them fixed themselves, none of the riders had plugs, boot, gloves, extra sealant etc. Each one was a mess for someone to fix with a new tube and took an age.

This is especially annoying for our club as we have lots of women riders who've bought Liv bikes (giant sub brand for women), and being unable to just fix a flat on their new setups without help did not go down well.

No tube users have had a puncture in that time - though of course this is likely due to better tyres & luck.

I generally get less than 1 puncture a year riding GP5000 and similar road tyres and can't see myself ever considering tubeless unless forced onto it by a new bike with hookless rims.
Wow. Almost sounds like your club did a group buy of bikes. But, just so you know. Just like disc brakes, the consumer is telling the industry that they want tubeless every time they buy a TL-setup bike.
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Old 09-28-21, 05:38 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post


Dynaplugs aren't sold locally to me, promoted or given out to new owners of bikes that come tubeless from the factory. Despite them apparently being the only way to fix a decent sized puncture in a tubeless road tyre.


Giant stores in the UK have started delivering bikes with tubeless already setup. But they don't teach the customer how it works, give them any spare sealant, plugs, boots etc.

That combined with their factory tyres being **** (and I assume they use some **** Giant brand sealant) means that the club I ride with has had 100% of punctures in the last 3 months be tubeless users.


None of them fixed themselves, none of the riders had plugs, boot, gloves, extra sealant etc. Each one was a mess for someone to fix with a new tube and took an age.

This is especially annoying for our club as we have lots of women riders who've bought Liv bikes (giant sub brand for women), and being unable to just fix a flat on their new setups without help did not go down well.


No tube users have had a puncture in that time - though of course this is likely due to better tyres & luck.


I generally get less than 1 puncture a year riding GP5000 and similar road tyres and can't see myself ever considering tubeless unless forced onto it by a new bike with hookless rims.

Yeah, my Defy came setup tubeless. They actually come from the factory without any sealant. Your LBS adds the sealant (which is Stan's I believe) when the bike is sold. Now Stan's doesn't have a good reputation among road tubeless users because apparently it doesn't work well at higher road pressures. The Giant Gavia tyres that came on my bike actually went the distance on crappy UK roads full of debris. Not a single flat all last year on them. Sample of one I know. I have since replaced them with Pirellis and had 1 flat that required a plug to seal properly. That's a total of 15,000 kms on 3 sets of tubeless tyres without any real issues.

As for your club riders being totally ignorant of dealing with tubeless setups. Well that's not really any different to buying a bike with tubed tyres. I've never had a shop discuss anything with me about repairing flats on any type of tyre. Dynaplug is a US brand, but you can get them next day from Amazon uk and many uk shops. There are also countless other tubeless repair kits available. I just prefer Dynaplugs as they are the quickest and easiest to use. I've used other plug kits in the past and they work fine too.

Since we are sharing personal anecdotes here, I've done half a dozen century sportives this year and on each and every one of them I saw many people fixing flats by the roadside. Wheel off, tube in hand. While it may not be a big deal changing a tube, it's just something I never have to do any more. Thinking about it, it's now coming up to 20 years since I last had to remove a wheel from my bike out on the road or trail. In that same time period, I've had to plug tubeless tyres maybe a dozen times at the most and that was mainly UST tyres without sealant. But I've only been running road tubeless for 2 years, so early days yet! I've had one flat that required plugging (it was a big hole) and one that self-sealed, but lost a fair bit of pressure. Plugged that one after I got home.
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Old 09-28-21, 06:12 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Dynaplugs aren't sold locally to me, promoted or given out to new owners of bikes that come tubeless from the factory. Despite them apparently being the only way to fix a decent sized puncture in a tubeless road tyre.


Giant stores in the UK have started delivering bikes with tubeless already setup. But they don't teach the customer how it works, give them any spare sealant, plugs, boots etc.

That combined with their factory tyres being **** (and I assume they use some **** Giant brand sealant) means that the club I ride with has had 100% of punctures in the last 3 months be tubeless users.


None of them fixed themselves, none of the riders had plugs, boot, gloves, extra sealant etc. Each one was a mess for someone to fix with a new tube and took an age.

This is especially annoying for our club as we have lots of women riders who've bought Liv bikes (giant sub brand for women), and being unable to just fix a flat on their new setups without help did not go down well.


No tube users have had a puncture in that time - though of course this is likely due to better tyres & luck.


I generally get less than 1 puncture a year riding GP5000 and similar road tyres and can't see myself ever considering tubeless unless forced onto it by a new bike with hookless rims.
This sounds frustrating but, if I'm being frank, it sounds like it's been a whole team effort to reach this point, from the LBS, to the bike owners, to the ride leaders.

How big is your club? How many punctures is "100%"? Are we talking 1 or 2? Or 14? Are club members expected to RTFM and be self-sufficient? If it's been as big of a problem as implied, why hasn't anyone, ride leaders included, gotten in front of it in the last 3 months?
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Old 09-28-21, 07:19 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
This sounds frustrating but, if I'm being frank, it sounds like it's been a whole team effort to reach this point, from the LBS, to the bike owners, to the ride leaders.

How big is your club? How many punctures is "100%"? Are we talking 1 or 2? Or 14? Are club members expected to RTFM and be self-sufficient? If it's been as big of a problem as implied, why hasn't anyone, ride leaders included, gotten in front of it in the last 3 months?
It sounds to me like nobody at their club has a clue about tubeless tyres. But they will learn eventually. They are not that complicated. Go back 20 years when tubeless started gaining a foothold in the mtb world. I was a relatively early adopter and I remember the group I rode with being amazed at how I could fix flats with a simple Panaracer plug tool (which is a fairly generic bacon strip tool) without removing a wheel. One by one they started changing over to tubeless. This was before sealant was a thing too. So small punctures still caused flats and so the plug tool was used more often.

Last edited by PeteHski; 09-28-21 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 09-28-21, 09:07 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Dynaplugs aren't sold locally to me, promoted or given out to new owners of bikes that come tubeless from the factory.
They don't give out patch kits and pumps to bike buyers, either.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Despite them apparently being the only way to fix a decent sized puncture in a tubeless road tyre.
There are other plugs that work just as well.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
they don't teach the customer how it works, give them any spare sealant, plugs, boots etc.
That's not really their job, is it? Do they give customers spare chain links, tire irons, or spoke wrenches? Do they teach them how to bleed disc brakes?

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
None of them fixed themselves, none of the riders had plugs, boot, gloves, extra sealant etc.
Their lack of preparation is their own fault.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
This is especially annoying for our club as we have lots of women riders who've bought Liv bikes (giant sub brand for women), and being unable to just fix a flat on their new setups without help did not go down well.
What does their gender have to do with anything?

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
No tube users have had a puncture in that time - though of course this is likely due to better tyres & luck.
Then it's irrelevant.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
can't see myself ever considering tubeless unless forced onto it by a new bike with hookless rims.
There are still plenty of bikes and wheels that aren't tubeless. Don't buy what you don't want.
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Old 09-28-21, 09:34 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Wow. Almost sounds like your club did a group buy of bikes. But, just so you know. Just like disc brakes, the consumer is telling the industry that they want tubeless every time they buy a TL-setup bike.
Hmm, not sure I'd put it like that.
It's more that the Liv branding has been successful marketing wise.

There are very few options to buy a new bike that's not at least 'tubeless ready' these days anyway.
Experiences like ours are not going to help sell tubeless anything in the near future.

Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
They don't give out patch kits and pumps to bike buyers, either.
There are other plugs that work just as well.
Can you name some? I've not heard of anyone online claiming success with other plug types for road use.

Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
That's not really their job, is it? Do they give customers spare chain links, tire irons, or spoke wrenches? Do they teach them how to bleed disc brakes?
Disc brakes don't need maintenance multiple times a year with the exact sealant already used to set them up, and aren't something that every rider is goes prepared to fix the old version of whenever they ride.
You have to go above and beyond if you're pushing gimmicky new technology.

Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Their lack of preparation is their own fault.
Yeah I'll tell them that, it'll go down well.

Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
What does their gender have to do with anything?
Sex. But purely that they are extra keen not to be seen as helpless damsels in distress, but have been left stuck by this new tech.
Many of them only started riding seriously in the last year or two.

Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
There are still plenty of bikes and wheels that aren't tubeless. Don't buy what you don't want.
Wheels maybe, but all mid-range & above bikes are at least 'tubeless ready' in shops near me.

Expecting buyers to be an expert in new untested tech that less than 1% of road cyclist have experience with is going to create bad experiences, especially when the giant retailer selling the bikes doesn't even sell the appropriate plugs & boots to have a chance of fixing them.
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Old 09-28-21, 10:55 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Hmm...
I've got reservations about whether or not you're being forthright, the purpose of your posts, and the severity of the issue, as you've pointedly ignored questions to that affect, but I'll give one good faith effort to help, since I'm such a nice guy.

First, in 20,000+ miles of road tubeless use, I've had two or three occasions to use plugs, so you've got the emphasis in the wrong place - the sealant is the low-hanging fruit that should be addressed first. If their sealant isn't routinely sealing ~4mm and smaller punctures, they've got some poor performing sealant and it should be swapped out. I always recommend Orange Seal.

For punctures 5mm+ (which I hope are rare), yeah, plugs are nice. No need to recommend specific brands - it's not rocket science. Just do a search for "tubeless plugs" or "bacon strip tubeless plugs."

For large cuts that can't be addressed by sealant or plugs, any boot that would be appropriate for a tubed system will be appropriate for booting and tubing a tubeless tire.
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Old 09-28-21, 11:02 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I've got reservations about whether or not you're being forthright, the purpose of your posts, and the severity of the issue, as you've pointedly ignored questions to that affect, but I'll give one good faith effort to help, since I'm such a nice guy.

First, in 20,000+ miles of road tubeless use, I've had two or three occasions to use plugs, so you've got the emphasis in the wrong place - the sealant is the low-hanging fruit that should be addressed first. If their sealant isn't routinely sealing ~4mm and smaller punctures, they've got some poor performing sealant and it should be swapped out. I always recommend Orange Seal.

For punctures 5mm+ (which I hope are rare), yeah, plugs are nice. No need to recommend specific brands - it's not rocket science. Just do a search for "tubeless plugs" or "bacon strip tubeless plugs."

For large cuts that can't be addressed by sealant or plugs, any boot that would be appropriate for a tubed system will be appropriate for booting and tubing a tubeless tire.
I've used Gorilla tape in a pinch. Held perfectly fine but when it came time to pull the tire, I replaced it with a Rema patch.
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Old 09-28-21, 11:08 AM
  #116  
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Road tubeless is neither untested nor new having been around for over 10 years and with mountain bike tubeless having been around for a lot longer than that. My own experience with road tubeless goes back 10 years. I find them to be no more difficult to deal with than tube type tires and far less work than tubulars. Just try patching a tubular tire, much more difficult than any clincher with or without tubes

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Old 09-28-21, 01:02 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
There are very few options to buy a new bike that's not at least 'tubeless ready' these days anyway.
Tubeless ready is no different than traditional tires and tubes.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Experiences like ours are not going to help sell tubeless anything in the near future.
Then you should be happy. Perhaps that will stem the tide of the bike industry "pushing" this horrific newfangled technology on unsuspecting riders like you.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Can you name some? I've not heard of anyone online claiming success with other plug types for road use.
Muc-Off, for one.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Disc brakes don't need maintenance multiple times a year with the exact sealant already used to set them up, and aren't something that every rider is goes prepared to fix the old version of whenever they ride.
You have to go above and beyond if you're pushing gimmicky new technology.
Actually, disc brakes do need to be bled from time to time, and you do want to match the type of fluid. That you're calling tubeless tires "gimmicky" tells me you're just grinding your axe.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
they are extra keen not to be seen as helpless damsels in distress, but have been left stuck by this new tech. Many of them only started riding seriously in the last year or two.
Then their dilemma is not unique to tubeless tires; a new rider, regardless of gender, is going to also have to learn to deal with tubes, patch kits, CO2, etc. It's just a matter of learning and preparedness, just like any other "tech."

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Wheels maybe, but all mid-range & above bikes are at least 'tubeless ready' in shops near me.
Tubeless ready bikes typically come set up with tubes, just like a conventional tire. You're manufacturing your victimhood.

Originally Posted by The_woo View Post
Expecting buyers to be an expert in new untested tech that less than 1% of road cyclist have experience with is going to create bad experiences, especially when the giant retailer selling the bikes doesn't even sell the appropriate plugs & boots to have a chance of fixing them.
(a) Tubeless tech is hardly untested. (b) All riders have to learn every "tech" at some point, regardless of what it is. (c) Where'd you get your 1% number? (d) If your retailer doesn't sell the gear that your riding demands, use another shop.


Look, I get it. You don't like tubeless tires. So don't run them. But to claim that no one has any choice but to use them, that no one has any obligation to learn how to use them, and that bike shops and manufacturers are obligated to provide you with the knowledge and equipment to repair them is nonsense. Take responsibility for your choices.

Last edited by Rolla; 09-28-21 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 09-28-21, 01:15 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Rogerogeroge View Post
Also remember to mount and dismount tubeless tires opposite of tubed versions. When removing the tubeless tire, start at the valve stem, and when mounting the tire finish at the valve stem.
This is best practice regardless of tubed or tubeless.
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Old 09-28-21, 01:54 PM
  #119  
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Regarding @The_woo and the various issues raised in that post .... seems to me you patronize a crappy shop.

If I were a bike salesperson (and I have done my share of sales, so this isn't my usual pointless crap--this is Informed pointless crap---) One rule of selling is "Up-sell." Another is, "Create return business."

"Excellent choice, sir or madam. I certainly enjoy having tubeless tires on some of my bikes .... are you up to speed with the technology, and do you have the appropriate sealant, tools, and patch kit?" (No way I would ever let a bike out the door without pushing for a seat bag, mini-pump, two spare tubes, patch kit, and boots. Not anything unethical either, because I wouldn't go out my own door without those things (and obviously, tubeless-focused gear if the person was riding tubeless.)

"It is recommended that you don't mix sealant types in the tire. You are set up with X-Brand right now. I'd suggest buying this x-ounce refill bottle, because you will need to top of the sealant a few times a year. This bottle will easily last a year. And using this valve-core wrench is a lot better than trying to improvise and damaging the valve. We also have this mini-syringe and tube which fits perfectly over the valve. I use this system and if I am careful, I can add sealant without spilling more than about two drops.

"Also, while you can put a tube in a tubeless tire, a lot of times you can just patch the tire with this Brand-XY cured ham product. The kit comes with clear instructions, but I can also explain really quickly. You probably won't get three flats in a year, probably not even one, unless you ride a hundred miles a week, that need any attention at all, or maybe just a squirt of air after the sealant does its job, but for that one time .... "

That gets me more sales, and a repeat customer who realizes that I know at least a little stuff and actually want to help him/her enjoy the ride.

If you are giving money to a shop which isn't giving good service, that's on you.
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Old 09-28-21, 04:09 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post

Yeah I'll tell them that, it'll go down well.
.
I am always amazed the amount of people that do not know how to change a tube or carry the tools needed to fix a flat. You have to have some level of self sufficiency when you are out riding. My wife is not generally mechanical, but she can fix a flat if she needed so she can make it back to the car or to home.
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you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.







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Old 09-28-21, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Tubeless ready is no different than traditional tires and tubes.
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Not exactly. TLR means that the rim profile can accommodate a TL tire. In OP's case, it also meant that it was sold with TLR tire. Seems anecdotally the case that TL tires mounting on TLR rims tends to be more difficult. For that matter, mounting even tubed (non TL) tires on TLR rims is more often problematic than would be on non TLR rims.
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Old 09-28-21, 05:44 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Not exactly. TLR means that the rim profile can accommodate a TL tire. In OP's case, it also meant that it was sold with TLR tire. Seems anecdotally the case that TL tires mounting on TLR rims tends to be more difficult. For that matter, mounting even tubed (non TL) tires on TLR rims is more often problematic than would be on non TLR rims.
I haven't found this to be the case. In fact my current Giant rims and Pirelli TLR tyres are the easiest combination to mount that I've ever had of any tyre type. I think most of the anecdotes you have heard involve first gen Conti GP5ks, but I haven't run those myself so I could be wrong.
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Old 09-28-21, 05:55 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by The_woo View Post

Expecting buyers to be an expert in new untested tech that less than 1% of road cyclist have experience with is going to create bad experiences, especially when the giant retailer selling the bikes doesn't even sell the appropriate plugs & boots to have a chance of fixing them.
Ignorant customer + incompetent retailer? Those are not genuine cons of tubeless tyres.
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Old 09-28-21, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I haven't found this to be the case. In fact my current Giant rims and Pirelli TLR tyres are the easiest combination to mount that I've ever had of any tyre type. I think most of the anecdotes you have heard involve first gen Conti GP5ks, but I haven't run those myself so I could be wrong.
Interesting in that, while you're not running hookless, Pirellis is pretty common denominator that their TL tire offerings are not ok with a number of hookless TL rim makers (eg. Enve, Zipp, Cadex (aka Giant). I wonder if there's a correlation between easy mounting for one type, and no good for another type?
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Old 09-28-21, 06:43 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Pirellis is pretty common denominator that their TL tire offerings are not ok with a number of hookless TL rim makers (eg. Enve, Zipp, Cadex (aka Giant).
Incorrect.

Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I wonder if there's a correlation between easy mounting for one type, and no good for another type?
Not likely.
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