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Facing a new Surly Ogre (or any Surly bike) for BB and Headset area...

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Facing a new Surly Ogre (or any Surly bike) for BB and Headset area...

Old 07-23-19, 09:58 PM
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Bike Jedi
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Facing a new Surly Ogre (or any Surly bike) for BB and Headset area...

I have received conflicting opinions and would like to know for fact. I just ordered a Surly Ogre frameset and have all the components to build the bike I want. The only tools I really don't have is tools to face, tap, thread, etc... kind of thing. The shop I ordered the bike from said they would charge me $75 to face and thread the bottom bracket, and also face the area to install the headset. I spoke to a local shop who said they would do it for $40 bucks. I spoke to a Surly mechanic and he said that the bikes come prepped and ready to go out of the box and there is no real need to do that again. I spoke to Surly directly and they said that the local bike shop should do those things, but I am assuming that is the politically correct answer they will say not knowing folks skill level in general and pushing more work towards shops.

So I told the bike shop that I bought the frame from that I would pass on having them do it for $75 and just ship me the frame and headset I bought from the directly and I will have it done locally if it needs to be one at all for $40 instead.

After all that, I called another local bike shop and he said they just about hardly ever pull the tools out to face, tap, and thread anything anymore on stuff that comes directly from the manufacturers. He said they are typically all cleaned up in fabrication and ready to go.

What is the correct answer? When I get the new frame, do I "need" to have these things done to insure things are done correctly the first time right out of the box? Do most mechanics face and retap the bottom bracket when they first get their hands on a frame or is it standard to just go ahead with the build? I have a DIY way tool of putting on Crown Race and cups for headset, and have the correct tools for the Bottom Bracket. Will I be good to go when I receive the frame or is there anything else special I have to have done? The only other challenge I can think of that I don't have a tool for is the star nut in the headset, but RJ the Bike Guy on Youtube has some easy DIY tools for that so if I don't need them to redo that for some reason, then I can just go ahead with the build on the bike if I have everything else?

Thanks
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Old 07-23-19, 10:13 PM
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I don't have an ogre, but I did pick up a LHT frame and everything seemed good to go. The only specialized tool I needed was to mount the fork crowns. The Surly website is also quite informative. They also reply to inquiries rather quickly
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Old 07-23-19, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
What is the correct answer?
The correct answer is: look at the one frame you receive to determine how to proceed.
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Old 07-24-19, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
I have received conflicting opinions and would like to know for fact. I just ordered a Surly Ogre frameset and have all the components to build the bike I want. The only tools I really don't have is tools to face, tap, thread, etc... kind of thing. The shop I ordered the bike from said they would charge me $75 to face and thread the bottom bracket, and also face the area to install the headset. I spoke to a local shop who said they would do it for $40 bucks. I spoke to a Surly mechanic and he said that the bikes come prepped and ready to go out of the box and there is no real need to do that again. I spoke to Surly directly and they said that the local bike shop should do those things, but I am assuming that is the politically correct answer they will say not knowing folks skill level in general and pushing more work towards shops.

So I told the bike shop that I bought the frame from that I would pass on having them do it for $75 and just ship me the frame and headset I bought from the directly and I will have it done locally if it needs to be one at all for $40 instead.

After all that, I called another local bike shop and he said they just about hardly ever pull the tools out to face, tap, and thread anything anymore on stuff that comes directly from the manufacturers. He said they are typically all cleaned up in fabrication and ready to go.

What is the correct answer? When I get the new frame, do I "need" to have these things done to insure things are done correctly the first time right out of the box? Do most mechanics face and retap the bottom bracket when they first get their hands on a frame or is it standard to just go ahead with the build? I have a DIY way tool of putting on Crown Race and cups for headset, and have the correct tools for the Bottom Bracket. Will I be good to go when I receive the frame or is there anything else special I have to have done? The only other challenge I can think of that I don't have a tool for is the star nut in the headset, but RJ the Bike Guy on Youtube has some easy DIY tools for that so if I don't need them to redo that for some reason, then I can just go ahead with the build on the bike if I have everything else?

Thanks

Last year I bought a Surly Troll frame and in looking at it, the headtube definitely needed work, as did the bottom bracket(though to a lesser degree).


Anyway I found a good bike shop that did the headtube, bottom bracket and the crown race of the fork, all for $AUD90.00, and I regard it as money very well spent for the peace of mind, at the very least.
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Old 07-24-19, 04:07 AM
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$35 more is inconsequential over the life of the bike. Did you even try to negotiate the $75 with them? If a shop screws up chasing the threads your BB is essentially ruined. That is not a warranty issue either. Good luck.
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Old 07-24-19, 08:04 AM
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I dont have the proper answer either, but if you are buying it new, surly should be able to give a proper answer to if the bb area was faced.
In my experience with my troll, I bought it used, but soon after stripped it down completely, partly to learn about outboard bb's, which I had never owned, and also to just go over the whole bike, and at the same time I put some framesaver stuff inside all the tubes while I was at it at that naked stage, as the bike had a wee bit of rust in some places, even though it hadnt been ridden much.
I did think about the bb facing, and asked mechanics I knew, but they didnt think it needed it.
Obviously the frame wasnt new, so didnt have paint and stuff on these areas, so I didnt do it.

a few years down the road, the hollowtech 2 bb has been perfect, not sure how many klicks Ive put on it, and not sure how many were put on it before I bought it, but I suspect the BB has maybe 6, 7000kms. I must have installed it and adjusted the preload properly, as it still spins super smoothly, but I would suggest doing as I did, reading up on all the most trustworthy mechanic stuff and vids, like Parks, and getting advice from a known good mechanic.
I also had the mechanics who checked out my wheelset to go over all the bits , to make sure all seemed well, so thats worth paying a bit for, and shouldnt be much.

Ive always paid a good mechanic to check my work, especially when I started doing things on my own, and I reckon its good to have it checked, and as a learning experience to get tips or advice on if you didnt do something right or whatever, or if an adjustment was off just a bit.
If they know you are planning a touring trip and are on good terms with them, as bike people they will be helpful, and its normal and right to pay for their experience.

all in all, doing stuff on your own is excellent for just knowing your bike intinately, and being more confident of how it will work over time, and how to maintain it well to avoid any issues, and to maximize parts life.

what setup are you thnking of?
bars
cranksets
shifters
9, 10 speed? whatever?

ps, asking around for the best wheel building mechanic with lots of experience is worth paying for, not having wheel or spoke issues is a huge plus, and great wheel prep is the best way to avoid any issues.
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Old 07-24-19, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
The correct answer is: look at the one frame you receive to determine how to proceed.
Exactly, other situations are not relevant.
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Old 07-24-19, 08:15 AM
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I would bet that there is some factory work done to make the faces and threads clean and properly aligned, but that some frames could do with a second going-over.

I also bet that any factory assembled Surly (or any factory assembled bike) has similar factory facing and chasing done and is then assembled as-is, and this is usually sufficient.

This reminds me of the 'Are Raleighs Still Quality' thread from a few weeks ago - since Surly frames are made in a modern facility is Asia (Taiwan?), you can probably assemble without worrying about facing and chasing the surfaces and not have a problem, but a 1970s European-made bike would likely not function very well without pre-assembly facing and chasing of threads and headset surfaces.
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Old 07-24-19, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cs1 View Post
$35 more is inconsequential over the life of the bike.
I agree if that is the case.

Did you even try to negotiate the $75 with them?
Yes, the labor was nonnegotiable which surprised me since he was price matching to begin with, and the matching price was $20 to have that work done. Even told them I can get a local shop to do it for $40 and still not negotiable. Seemed strange.

If a shop screws up chasing the threads your BB is essentially ruined. That is not a warranty issue either. Good luck.
No but the shop would be liable though correct?
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Old 07-24-19, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr View Post
Exactly, other situations are not relevant.
Actually, this goes without saying, and the default of what I was planning anyway.

But I still would like to have the knowledge and understanding around it in general so I understand this part of bike mechanics completely and there is no more doubt, confusion, or assumptions in my own mind.
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Old 07-24-19, 09:23 PM
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Per Surly:

https://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spe...ur_steel_frame

But this still doesn't explain the different answers depending on who you speak with. Local shop said they just about "never" take out chasing and facing tools anymore on new builds, but they weren't a Surly shop and he was speaking in general. The Surly mechanic I spoke with said he was doing a custom build on a midnight as we speak and he didn't do a thing but install BB, and he said that is pretty much standard, and he works for a Surly shop.

So if I was a mechanic in a Surly shop, and I just had a new Troll, Ogre, ECR, whatever...dropped shipped to me from Surly directly, is default to build the bike, is default automatically to clean face, chase, etc..., or is default "each situation is unique and eyeball it first?"

What do the pro's do is what I am after. If a guy working for Surly just got a new frameset himself, is he doing these things automatically for "peace of mind" as it was put?
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Old 07-24-19, 09:58 PM
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Bike J, I get exactly where you're at. In my case, the original owner wasnt sure if the frame had been faced, but I suspect it had been when I took it apart, going from the look of the surfaces, and so took the chance and left it as is. I imagine the BB sides must be well parallel , given the BB life so far (although lets be fair, BB life can depend on how beefy a rider is, Im not, I spin and dont lug, also Ive not ridden in mud and crap hardly at all, and not even much in rain, and not in rain on dirt roads , so a lot less debris and stuff being exposed to the BB)

your question is completely reasonable, and unless you have a good relationship with known mechanics that you can trust, I would get it faced and spend the 35 or 40 bucks and then just forget about spending the money, cuz then its done.
Again, my outboard bb experience is pertty limited, but if proper facing means proper alignment and even loads on external bearings, then its worth it.
I had no idea how Hollowtech BBs would last, having had nearly 20,000kms life out of good square tapers, UN-55 level stuff, but so far Im happy with how the trolls hollowtech 2 has lasted, and have a spare BB on hand.
I figure I should open it up again, clean and regrease everything, partly to see how clean the phils green grease is that I used when I reassembled it.

also, I imagine proper installation torque, and most importantly, proper preload amount that puts the pressure on the actual bearings, is also super important to bearing life.

also, re frame saver, I thought I had read that newer surly frames had this done, but I could be wrong. In any case, if it isnt done, now that the frame is naked, its the time to do it, easy and just a bit messy. I got a small can of that frame saver stuff, pressurized one, brand I cant recall. Another 10 bucks or whatever well spent for the long run.

finally, so whats the plan with the ogre? Trip plans, dream trips? Or just dreams at this point?
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Old 07-25-19, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
but if proper facing means proper alignment and even loads on external bearings, then its worth it.
Thinking the same thing.

I had no idea how Hollowtech BBs would last, having had nearly 20,000kms life out of good square tapers, UN-55 level stuff, but so far Im happy with how the trolls hollowtech 2 has lasted, and have a spare BB on hand. I figure I should open it up again, clean and regrease everything, partly to see how clean the phils green grease is that I used when I reassembled it.
That's actually really good stuff to hear. I have been trying to be practical where I can, and quite comfortable with the parts I have selected based on what many of you have said over the years. I have been speed reading for a while. I actually know what many of you think already In many ways, I also think like many of you now.

also, I imagine proper installation torque, and most importantly,
I did my last BB without torquing it, and from majority of the videos I watched on it, majority of them did it hand tight. Nobody seemed neurotic about torque there from what I have seen. How important is it? Anyone wants to add to it, educate away please.

proper preload amount that puts the pressure on the actual bearings, is also super important to bearing life.
I honestly don't know what this means exactly. "preload amount"? Explain please. Thanks

also, re frame saver, I thought I had read that newer surly frames had this done, but I could be wrong. In any case, if it isnt done, now that the frame is naked, its the time to do it, easy and just a bit messy. I got a small can of that frame saver stuff, pressurized one, brand I cant recall. Another 10 bucks or whatever well spent for the long run.
Put a link in another thread asking about which type is best. Suggestion? Yes, I just read somewhere that Surly does do it at the factory, but that it "also" suggested to do it again anyway.

finally, so whats the plan with the ogre?
Back country Colorado, upper north/west, and then the rest of the world I hope.

Or just dreams at this point?
Dreams or reality? A little of both I guess at this point.

Last edited by Bike Jedi; 07-25-19 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 07-25-19, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
I agree if that is the case.


Yes, the labor was nonnegotiable which surprised me since he was price matching to begin with, and the matching price was $20 to have that work done. Even told them I can get a local shop to do it for $40 and still not negotiable. Seemed strange.


No but the shop would be liable though correct?
I would agree the shop would be liable. Getting them to pay would cost more than the frame. Iíve had several frames chased and faced. A skilled mechanic takes a while to do it correctly. Personally I wouldnít trust anyone who only charges $20. Itís like a surgeon saying he can take care of open heart surgery for $100. Something just doesnít seem correct.
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Old 07-25-19, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cs1 View Post
Personally I wouldn’t trust anyone who only charges $20.
He didn't end up with the sale or the work, and I don't. It's why I am asking questions. I talked to three people, all professionals, including the manufacturer via telephone or walked into their shop, and all three of them said different things. It's why I asked.

"So a guy who works for Surly, an authorized Surly bike mechanic, and a professional bike tourer who own's his own shop, all walk into a bar together...the first one says..."

In all fairness, the guys at Surly said, "Do it again anyway..."

Maybe that is the best play.
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Old 07-25-19, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
I talked to three people, all professionals, including the manufacturer via telephone or walked into their shop, and all three of them said different things. It's why I asked.
Some tasks are judgment calls and people might have different opinions in general, and those opinions might change when presented with a specific frame in hand to look at.

FWIW, I faced a similar quandry back in the day when I bought my Salsa Fargo frame. Everyone on the various forums was always talking about facing like the world would fall apart if I didn't get it done. It was super inconvenient to get it done. I had to take three half-day's of vacation time from work to go back and forth to the shops. I had to split the work between two different shops because of who had which tools. I ended up with a paint ding in the front of my brand new head tube. It was pretty clear to me afterward that the facing tools weren't pulled out very often, if ever. Today I just bolt on the parts and only worry about facing if and when a problem becomes apparent.
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Old 07-25-19, 09:12 AM
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Screw in the BB in and look at it. If the threads play nice and everything is sitting square, why chase and face? If you have a good touch with a wide bastard file (draw file) and blue machinist die, you can clean up the face if needed. There's a chance that the frame is good as is, and if you pay someone to 'fix' it they will make it worse. This only applies if Surly has threaded the BB and it's all pretty square out of the box.
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Old 07-25-19, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
He didn't end up with the sale or the work, and I don't. It's why I am asking questions. I talked to three people, all professionals, including the manufacturer via telephone or walked into their shop, and all three of them said different things. It's why I asked.

"So a guy who works for Surly, an authorized Surly bike mechanic, and a professional bike tourer who own's his own shop, all walk into a bar together...the first one says..."

In all fairness, the guys at Surly said, "Do it again anyway..."

Maybe that is the best play.
It canít hurt. Good luck on the new frame.
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Old 07-25-19, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by grizzly59 View Post
If you have a good touch with a wide bastard file (draw file) and blue machinist die, you can clean up the face if needed.
Had to look up what a wide bastard file is and even after looking at "blue machinist die..." I have no idea what to do with that. However, I am intelligent enough to figure it out, understand basic mechanics and engineering, and could figure it out.

There's a chance that the frame is good as is
It's on the way so it's up the Surly God's now...fingers crossed.

Thanks for the advice.
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Old 07-25-19, 07:29 PM
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This is where there is room for difference of opinion. I have known mechanics who wouldn't think of putting in a BB or headset without chasing and facing. I respect their views. On the other hand, I almost never do it. It's not crazy that a bike shop hardly ever uses those tools anymore. That's how they do things, and it's respectable. I would respect a mechanic who always does it and another who sometimes does it and another who never does it.
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Old 07-25-19, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
even after looking at "blue machinist die..." I have no idea what to do with that. However, I am intelligent enough to figure it out, understand basic mechanics and engineering, and could figure it out.
I misspelled dye, and I should have called it "layout blue". You can use it to find high spots when you assemble parts together.

From reading the link from Surly, it sounds like everything is faced before painting, so scraping the paint gets everything back to square. I've built all my bikes with BB's costing around $30, and everything has been fine. I have no experience with expensive stuff with highly critical bearings that could work in an SR-71.
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Old 07-25-19, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by grizzly59 View Post
From reading the link from Surly, it sounds like everything is faced before painting, so scraping the paint gets everything back to square.
I have read that if you are careful and gentle, you can use a razor blade to remove the paint there if it needs to be even done.

I have no experience with expensive stuff with highly critical bearings that could work in an SR-71.
A $25 dollar Shimano XT BB-MT800 is going in there. Nothing that special.
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Old 07-25-19, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bike Jedi View Post
I did my last BB without torquing it, and from majority of the videos I watched on it, majority of them did it hand tight. Nobody seemed neurotic about torque there from what I have seen. How important is it? Anyone wants to add to it, educate away please.


I honestly don't know what this means exactly. "preload amount"? Explain please. Thanks
I didnt use a torque wrench, I have a car one, but in the end, I just followed the recommendations of mechanics I know to really tighten the "tighten hard " side, but to be honest, I did this about 3 years ago, so maybe dont recall all the stuff---again, go to Parks tools videos and get proper instruction.

preload--basically, if you go the outboard route, hollowtech 2 or whatever, you need the special tool to tighten the outer ring things, and on the one side, you adjust the tension that puts just the right amount of tension onto the bearing, just like a headset or whatever.

too tight, it doesnt spin freely, too loose and there is play

again, if you dont know what youre doing, get informed and pay a good mechanic a small amount to show you how to do it.
Like all bike mechanics stuff, it aint rocket science, but it depends on what mechanical doing stuff yourself background you have, and or if youre the type of person who can do "gettng your hands dirty" stuff and have the ability to learn, some people dont, so only you know if yoiu can prep properly and learn or whatever, but really, it isnt building a Saturn V here.
I always figure that if I can bumble my way through stuff successfully, anyone can.
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Old 07-26-19, 05:26 AM
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As mentioned, see what you actually receive and go from there. In the past Surly frames were super clean out of the box. I built up a LHT recently and it was a mess though. I think the issue is actually the ED coating they apply before paint. I had to tap out every single braze on hole, that took more than a little while. The ED coating is a recent thing, maybe the last couple years.

Also I don't think they have ever reamed the headtubes on frames. My old 1x1 had never seen a cutting tool that's for sure. LHT seems about the same, although under all that ED coating it looks like it has a very obvious weld seam in the tubing.

I will say even with a total lack of reaming/facing/chasing they tend to go together smoother than most frames. Very little warping from welding heat in the headtube and BB shell.
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Old 07-26-19, 10:21 AM
  #25  
Kapusta
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I have built up )for myself and my wife) ~15 frames manufactured since 2003 without facing head tubes or facing/chasing BBs.

I had to go back and face the head tube on two them (a 2004 Azonic Saber and 2016 Soma Fog Cutter). In one case it was not apparent until a headset failed after a few months. The other was obvious in the first couple rides something was off, and the issue was taken care of and the headset was fine.

Never had an issue with a BB.

So, With that track record, I donít see getting the head tube and bb preemptively faced and chased to be even remotely worth the money.

I have also heard several shops say they seldom ever break out the facing tools anymore. In the case of the newer Fog Cutter, they were even dubious that the head tube was the issue because it is so rare. Turned out it was just the paint layer that was uneven. There were actually a few QC issues with that frame.
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