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For the love of English 3 speeds...

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For the love of English 3 speeds...

Old 07-18-20, 10:57 PM
  #22926  
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Originally Posted by dumpsterhuffy View Post
By far the most practical component
Double Duty.
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Old 07-18-20, 11:01 PM
  #22927  
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Originally Posted by barnfind View Post
I didn't count the pages but its about 3" thick or more. Each year is a full product list and catalog.
The front of the book is just a copy of that years catalog, then there's a section for every component and part for every bike plus accessories.
Scanning it would take hours, maybe days of removing every page one at at time and scanning and tagging each side of each page.
There would be no need to scan the catalog pages since every year seems to be covered elsewhere online.
Each one only covered Raleigh, no sub brands or other lines but a few have other brand literature added to the back of the binder.
There's a few other wholesaler catalogs too some dating back to the late 50's.

Today I sorted through over 500 chain guards, of all types. The overwhelming majority of chain guards is a toss up between Columbia and Rollfast.
There were very few British chain guards, The few I did find were from the 50's and off non Raleigh models.
Anyone ever heard of Cycle Rite bikes? I don't have the bike but I found a ton of chain guards marked Cycle Rite, they look identical to most mid 50s early 60's Hercules chain guards.

Something that really surprised me over the years is that I've never come across any literature for any of the Raleigh sub brands like Robin Hood, Hercules, or such.
Who sold them? Who distributed them? I find old bikes, assorted parts but never anything related to who sold them.
I've been around bikes for 40 plus years and never once knew a shop that sold any of the sub brands.
I certainly find more sub brand bikes than Raleigh bikes though.
Did brands like Robin Hood, Hercules, Dunelt, Rudge, BSA, Sunbeam, etc have catalogs? Or where all of them just sold as surplus or short runs each year through bike importers or wholesalers?
I think you've got a museum there.
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Old 07-19-20, 07:46 AM
  #22928  
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Thanks for the chainwheel info.😁👍

Hi,just want to thank Kurt and Salubrious for sharing info on the Raleigh chainwheel. Much appreciated guys!

Take care and all the best.😁👌

W.L.SOON,Malaysia
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Old 07-19-20, 11:11 AM
  #22929  
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Okay I haven't been around for a while. It has been busy and health issues have me to the point where I don't want to do anything after work. I usually tinker with something after work and haven't been doing that lately. This week my friend asked if I could freshen up his old bike a Raleigh super Record. Then a co-worker. Call me to tell me his neighbor was having a yard sale and there were 3 three speed bikes. He sent me pictures one was a woman's bike with a Sturmy Archer hub . I figured for $10 the hub was worth that . Turns out it is a coaster brake hub . I know there have been issues with the braking on these . But is the gearing good on them ?
thanks in advance
Roy

Looking at the pictures my coworker sent I think this bike is a Raleigh built bike
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Old 07-19-20, 02:02 PM
  #22930  
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In all these parts I've been sorting through here I notice I have four distinct different styles of Westrick rims on Raleigh Sports models.
I see rims that are fully chrome, stamped "26x1 3/8" Raleigh' Some are only chromed on the sides and top outer edges with no markings, these rims have a dull, satin finish along the spoke bed like those pictured below, and a third that are full chromed but marked "26x1 3/8" Sturmey Archer". Then there's the stainless rims. What determined which rims a bike got? Was it just changes in production over time or did certain rims come on certain models or trim levels? Maybe different rims used for different markets?

Here's a set with no chrome down the spoke bed area but chrome everywhere else. I see a few pictured that are similar online but those have no chrome on the sides either.
I've also seen some listed with serrated sides with both full chrome and no center chrome.

This is a set off a 1961 Raleigh Sports I found recently.
Satin finish only down the center.


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Old 07-19-20, 02:08 PM
  #22931  
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Originally Posted by barnfind View Post
In all these parts I've been sorting through here I notice I have four distinct different styles of Westrick rims on Raleigh Sports models.
I see rims that are fully chrome, stamped "26x1 3/8" Raleigh' Some are only chromed on the sides and top outer edges with no markings, these rims have a dull, satin finish along the spoke bed like those pictured below, and a third that are full chromed but marked "26x1 3/8" Sturmey Archer". Then there's the stainless rims. What determined which rims a bike got? Was it just changes in production over time or did certain rims come on certain models or trim levels? Maybe different rims used for different markets
The double-finish rims are the Raleigh Westrick rims produced prior to the Tube Investments takeover. The fully-chromed Westricks came afterwards. Those rims would be correct for a '61.

The later rims, if I'm not mistaken, were badged Sturmey-Archer. The earlier ones, Raleigh. Stainless rims were a short-lived option in the mid-1950's; those should be marked "RALEIGH STAINLESS."

Those early rims are really nice, even though they have the same issues as any other chrome steel rim.

-Kurt
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Old 07-19-20, 04:44 PM
  #22932  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
The double-finish rims are the Raleigh Westrick rims produced prior to the Tube Investments takeover. The fully-chromed Westricks came afterwards. Those rims would be correct for a '61.

The later rims, if I'm not mistaken, were badged Sturmey-Archer. The earlier ones, Raleigh. Stainless rims were a short-lived option in the mid-1950's; those should be marked "RALEIGH STAINLESS."

Those early rims are really nice, even though they have the same issues as any other chrome steel rim.

-Kurt
The rims in the pics above have no branding at all, there's no stamping whatsoever. The rear hub is dated 11-61.
The rear rims is near perfect, the front rim has chrome loss on the sides from braking and a few pits here and there from rust.

In 20 years of dealing with all these used parts and bikes this is probably only the third or fourth set of usable Westrick rims I've found. I have one later set that's not bad on a ladies Sprite, I think the only reason they survived is because the bike was a total grease ball when I found it, the rims, hub, spokes, forks, and whole rear triangle were completely slobbered with dirt encrusted grease. That bike had an old tobacco can hose clamped to the Prestube rear rack with a 500ml Superior brand oil squirt can in it, and another can next to it with a Prestis tire patch kit and a can of saddle soap. It had front and rear baskets, two tire pumps, a Dynohub with battery kit, and two tail lights and two headlights, one set running off the Dynohub, the other off batteries. It had a Lucas cyclometer on the front wheel that read 7810 miles. The both cans on the rear rack had drain holes punched in the bottom, most likely to let rain drain out. The oil can was a leaky mess and likely dripped all the time, draining oil down over the back wheel and brakes.
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Old 07-19-20, 08:19 PM
  #22933  
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S5 28 hole hub original application?

I spent a few hours this afternoon sorting through some of the Sturmey Archer hubs, I'm basically sorting them first into two lots, complete, or missing parts, then I'm sorting the complete hubs by number or speeds and separating the coaster brake models. The vast majority are first early 50's AW models, with late 60's being the second most populous model.
Most of the AW hubs are 36 or 40 hole models with about a third being lower spoke count models.
I am also finding some AW hubs that have been converted to 5 speed, all mixed in with rest of the hubs.
At first I thought maybe they had been somewhat sorted by condition but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm finding a total mix condition wise throughout the buckets and barrels of hubs. Unfortunately, many of the disassembled hubs appear to have been either placed in a vise or opened up with a pipe wrench so about half the empty shells I'm finding are junk, but many of those shells are lower spoke count models.
At this point I can't say where this guy was getting so many hubs but a good number of them are pretty rough cosmetically, and about 1 out of every 20 is seized up and won't turn at all.

What I didn't expect to find was 28h S5 hubs.

What bike used a 28h S5 hub? .... The Raleigh Chopper took a 36h model, I don't recall ever seeing a Raleigh 20 with an S5 hub. I didn't even know they made the S5 in 28h.
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Old 07-19-20, 08:52 PM
  #22934  
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Originally Posted by barnfind View Post
I spent a few hours this afternoon sorting through some of the Sturmey Archer hubs, I'm basically sorting them first into two lots, complete, or missing parts, then I'm sorting the complete hubs by number or speeds and separating the coaster brake models. The vast majority are first early 50's AW models, with late 60's being the second most populous model.
Most of the AW hubs are 36 or 40 hole models with about a third being lower spoke count models.
I am also finding some AW hubs that have been converted to 5 speed, all mixed in with rest of the hubs.
At first I thought maybe they had been somewhat sorted by condition but that doesn't seem to be the case. I'm finding a total mix condition wise throughout the buckets and barrels of hubs. Unfortunately, many of the disassembled hubs appear to have been either placed in a vise or opened up with a pipe wrench so about half the empty shells I'm finding are junk, but many of those shells are lower spoke count models.
At this point I can't say where this guy was getting so many hubs but a good number of them are pretty rough cosmetically, and about 1 out of every 20 is seized up and won't turn at all.

What I didn't expect to find was 28h S5 hubs.

What bike used a 28h S5 hub? .... The Raleigh Chopper took a 36h model, I don't recall ever seeing a Raleigh 20 with an S5 hub. I didn't even know they made the S5 in 28h.
Think small wheel. Haven't looked for them but small wheel Moulton/Brompton style brit bikes perhaps?
SA still makes an S5 hub with 28 hole drilling so there's got to be newer ones out there. Yours are old but there's history out there.

Last edited by clubman; 07-19-20 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 07-19-20, 09:42 PM
  #22935  
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Soon I'm going to clean up and reinstall the Rudge fork onto the Rudge frame. I saved the balls but they seem to have vanished in a cleanup, so I need new ones. It's a 1952 Rudge Aero Special, with 27 x 1 ¼ wheels, a clone of the Raleigh Super Lenton. So my question is how many balls does it need for the upper and lower bearings, and what size? I assume Grade 25 is a good choice.
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Old 07-19-20, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by barnfind View Post
The rims in the pics above have no branding at all, there's no stamping whatsoever. The rear hub is dated 11-61.
The rear rims is near perfect, the front rim has chrome loss on the sides from braking and a few pits here and there from rust.
I'll bet someone forgot to throw them in the stamping machine.

-Kurt
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Old 07-20-20, 09:49 AM
  #22937  
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!

Originally Posted by billnuke1 View Post
Just sold my Superbe, 23”...don’t miss it...gained a lot of room! I can now work on the three road bikes that have been stuck behind it!
Just two DL-1s and one Dunelt girls bike left and then no more old ass Raleighs!
I get my shop back!
By next Thursday I will have been offered and will have brought home at least two more old ass Raleighs!
Hopefully I’ll have the two of the

Handlebars have been grabbing my apron, shirt, and pants pockets for about week and a half Now...

Elbow room! Red Bridgestone is done...Grand Tourismo is next...then the Grand Rally...
three projects done before that happens...
Just two DL-1s and one Dunelt girls bike left and then no more old ass Raleighs!
I get my shop back!
By next Thursday I will have been offered and will have brought home at least two more old ass Raleighs!



1972 Rudge Sport...kinda clean...21”...that seat...nobody wanted to ride it...rolls kinda slow...I’ll take it apart and put it back together...as soon I finish the three road bike projects in the shop!
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Old 07-20-20, 11:20 AM
  #22938  
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Nice little project
70's Bridgestone frame
Dia Compe calipers
'62 S/A hub
Raleigh rim up front
mid 60's trigger
Bearings all repacked

Shifts well
Brakes a bit spongy.
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Old 07-20-20, 12:13 PM
  #22939  
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135mm 48 tooth Raleigh Cranksets? What did these fit?

I'm finding these mixed in among other cranks that were stored in 55 gallon barrels from the same lot as all the hubs.
They're rounded arm style, the chain rings best match the earlier style 48t. models from the 50's.
They're too old to be Raleight 20 or or Chopper, besides, both of those used longer cranks.
I have two Raleigh Colts with 24" wheels in the lot, both have 155 or 165mm cranks.
These short arms measure only 135mm, but are attached to full size 48t chain rings.
I snapped a few pics, I put an arm off a ladies Raleigh Sports along the one arm for comparison. These things are real short.



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Old 07-20-20, 01:56 PM
  #22940  
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Here's another one, Raleigh half step cranks. I'm finding a few of these mixed in with the Raleigh Heron cranks too, most have the Sir Raleigh symbol, others have nothing or have the Williams mark on the back. This one is 46t-49t, there's a few that are 49t-52t.
They were mixed in with what is mostly all Sports model or non derailleur cranksets, all piled loose in barrels. Most aren't this clean, I dunked this one in gas real quick before snapping the pic.



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Old 07-20-20, 06:23 PM
  #22941  
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Mo pics...

Originally Posted by billnuke1 View Post
Just two DL-1s and one Dunelt girls bike left and then no more old ass Raleighs!
I get my shop back!
By next Thursday I will have been offered and will have brought home at least two more old ass Raleighs!



1972 Rudge Sport...kinda clean...21”...that seat...nobody wanted to ride it...rolls kinda slow...I’ll take it apart and put it back together...as soon I finish the three road bike projects in the shop!
Mo pics...



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Old 07-21-20, 01:08 AM
  #22942  
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Originally Posted by oldspokes View Post
Found it, all the way at the bottom of the scrap barrel.
The pinion is ground down, and all four planetary gear pins and center holes are worn badly, the rest of the hub was fine.
The thing would bind ride fine but would let go and slip at will. If you rolled the bike backwards, it would bind up and get locked into sort of a fixed gear state.
The woman who owned it said her grand kids were using it and one of them figured out that if you held he shifter and pedaled real fast and let go it would make a huge clunk as it jumps into gear. My bet is that's what did the damage. The bike otherwise was mint, it had an old Lucas cyclometer on it that worked with under 300 miles on it. Oddly though, both outer axle bearing cages were missing one bearing each, with no signs of any damage to the races and no loose bearings inside.
The whole inside of the hub was full of gritty ground up metal from the pinion gear, the oil in the bottom of the hub was pretty caked up with powdered metal from the worn parts. One of the planetary gears is worn far worse than the others, the inner hole is wallowed out pretty bad, all four pins are worn where they contact the planetary housing, not the gears. The housing showed no wear. A fresh set of gears, a new axle and four pins, and some new bearings and all was well again.
The rest of the bike was really clean, the sprockets showed almost no wear, and the paint was near perfect. It wasn't a high mileage bike.
Having ridden on these hubs for many years, seeing one this torn up with such little use surprised me. This one and yours are the only two I've seen fail this way, its odd both are 1972 models.







This pic shows how badly the pins and gears are worn as well. Not all are worn the same.
Its been a few weeks but I finally got around to working on this bike again, I cleaned out the hub shell, replaced the axle with a good used one, replace all the planet gears and pins, and replaced the gear ring.
I did this a while ago but finally got around to putting the bike back together.
What I have is that there's a rubbing sound when the bike coasts.
After tearing it apart several times, and by marking various surfaces with dye, I can see that the gear ring is rubbing against the inner face of the right ball ring and making a rubbing noise every 1/2 turn. I tried another axle, changed out the gear ring but no change.
(Installing a brand new internal set does solve the noise but I sort of hate to waste a new set of internals on a run of the mill old bike like this).
I can't for the life of me figure out why the two parts are making contact hard enough to make noise, but even in hand, just spinning the wheel I can hear it making a scraping, rubbing sound every time around. I can hear that noise with the internals in hand, removed from the hub as I hold the ball ring and turn the gear assembly. With the right bearing tightened up with every so slight amount of play, the ball ring and gear ring rub just hard enough to make a fairly loud scraping sound. The hub shifts and functions fine otherwise but it sounds like a machine shop grinding a crankshaft when you stop pedaling. Its not making any shavings or anything but the sound is pretty loud. The hub is lubed with 30w oil.
I swapped in a new planet cage as well but that didn't change anything. The gear ring seems to have a lot of play letting it float around, if I hold the internal assembly in hand and hold the gear ring back against the planet cage the noise is gone, but it seem like the gear ring just flops around. This made me think the gear ring was maybe worn, but a new ring didn't fix it either.
All the bearing races look good, and none of the bearings make any noise.
Keep in mind that was a hub that ate up a set of planet gears, the pinion gear, and all four pins. (It didn't make any rubbing noise with all that damage but slipped in low and high. The funny thing was I never really found all that much metal inside the hub, just stripped gears.

Any ideas?
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Old 07-21-20, 05:21 AM
  #22943  
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Originally Posted by oldspokes View Post
Its been a few weeks but I finally got around to working on this bike again, I cleaned out the hub shell, replaced the axle with a good used one, replace all the planet gears and pins, and replaced the gear ring.
I did this a while ago but finally got around to putting the bike back together.
What I have is that there's a rubbing sound when the bike coasts.
After tearing it apart several times, and by marking various surfaces with dye, I can see that the gear ring is rubbing against the inner face of the right ball ring and making a rubbing noise every 1/2 turn. I tried another axle, changed out the gear ring but no change.
(Installing a brand new internal set does solve the noise but I sort of hate to waste a new set of internals on a run of the mill old bike like this).
I can't for the life of me figure out why the two parts are making contact hard enough to make noise, but even in hand, just spinning the wheel I can hear it making a scraping, rubbing sound every time around. I can hear that noise with the internals in hand, removed from the hub as I hold the ball ring and turn the gear assembly. With the right bearing tightened up with every so slight amount of play, the ball ring and gear ring rub just hard enough to make a fairly loud scraping sound. The hub shifts and functions fine otherwise but it sounds like a machine shop grinding a crankshaft when you stop pedaling. Its not making any shavings or anything but the sound is pretty loud. The hub is lubed with 30w oil.
I swapped in a new planet cage as well but that didn't change anything. The gear ring seems to have a lot of play letting it float around, if I hold the internal assembly in hand and hold the gear ring back against the planet cage the noise is gone, but it seem like the gear ring just flops around. This made me think the gear ring was maybe worn, but a new ring didn't fix it either.
All the bearing races look good, and none of the bearings make any noise.
Keep in mind that was a hub that ate up a set of planet gears, the pinion gear, and all four pins. (It didn't make any rubbing noise with all that damage but slipped in low and high. The funny thing was I never really found all that much metal inside the hub, just stripped gears.

Any ideas?
Of all the bikes/hubs that I've worked on over the years,
I've only found 2 that had actual defective/broken parts
1-mangled/stripped sun gear discussed earlier (1972)
2-an axle where the sun gear locating pin was loose and the
axle itself was warped/distorted (1968)
I suppose that the occasional "bad" hub slipped through.
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Old 07-21-20, 11:13 AM
  #22944  
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Originally Posted by billnuke1 View Post
Just two DL-1s and one Dunelt girls bike left and then no more old ass Raleighs!
I get my shop back!
By next Thursday I will have been offered and will have brought home at least two more old ass Raleighs!



1972 Rudge Sport...kinda clean...21”...that seat...nobody wanted to ride it...rolls kinda slow...I’ll take it apart and put it back together...as soon I finish the three road bike projects in the shop!
T1N Sprinter!
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Old 07-21-20, 11:25 AM
  #22945  
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I've probably had 30 or so of these apart over the years, never had one give me trouble like this one.
Its as if every internal part of this thing is just a little out of spec somehow, but not enough to not let it work.
The thing shifts fine like this but it sounds like something is dragging when you coast.
The gear ring is just floating there and rubbing against the right side ball ring. If I turn the wheel on its side, sprocket side up, it don't make the noise. With the internals assembled but out of the hub, the gear ring wobbles around a bit more than the one on the new assembly, but its also sitting about .040" farther into the ball ring. This hub is a 1972.
With all the wear I found on the planet gears and pins, plus the chewed up sun gear, I thought maybe the gear ring teeth may have been worn just as bad, even though they don't look bad, so I put in another gear ring from a working hub, that didn't make any difference. So then I swapped the planet cage from the parts hub, but that made no difference.
The hub shell looks fine, the left bearing race is like new, the pawl teeth inside are like new and there's rust of damage to the threads.
Keep in mine also that swapping in a complete brand new internal assembly works fine. I'd just like to figure out what ails the original. These things aren't that complicated, it should be obvious but I don't see a single thing wrong. I've gone so far as measuring parts with a micrometer to try and find something different or worn. What I don't see is why the gear ring on this wants to rub so hard against the ball ring. I've got a shoe box full of spare parts here from various hubs over the years, I've swapped out just about every part one at a time with nothing fixing the noise. I may just give up and stick the new internal set in this one but its sort of a beater bike that'll likely either end up getting sold or just kept for a guest loaner of sorts. It was a cosmetically perfect bike that I picked up for parts with a bad rear hub, I used most of the pristine parts on another bike and this one is going together with the old parts. It just seemed a waste of good parts to use those new bits which are getting harder and harder to find on a beater bike.
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Old 07-21-20, 02:19 PM
  #22946  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
T1N Sprinter!
Same as a “Scorcher“?
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Old 07-21-20, 02:22 PM
  #22947  
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Originally Posted by oldspokes View Post
I've probably had 30 or so of these apart over the years, never had one give me trouble like this one.
Its as if every internal part of this thing is just a little out of spec somehow, but not enough to not let it work.
The thing shifts fine like this but it sounds like something is dragging when you coast.
The gear ring is just floating there and rubbing against the right side ball ring. If I turn the wheel on its side, sprocket side up, it don't make the noise. With the internals assembled but out of the hub, the gear ring wobbles around a bit more than the one on the new assembly, but its also sitting about .040" farther into the ball ring. This hub is a 1972.
With all the wear I found on the planet gears and pins, plus the chewed up sun gear, I thought maybe the gear ring teeth may have been worn just as bad, even though they don't look bad, so I put in another gear ring from a working hub, that didn't make any difference. So then I swapped the planet cage from the parts hub, but that made no difference.
The hub shell looks fine, the left bearing race is like new, the pawl teeth inside are like new and there's rust of damage to the threads.
Keep in mine also that swapping in a complete brand new internal assembly works fine. I'd just like to figure out what ails the original. These things aren't that complicated, it should be obvious but I don't see a single thing wrong. I've gone so far as measuring parts with a micrometer to try and find something different or worn. What I don't see is why the gear ring on this wants to rub so hard against the ball ring. I've got a shoe box full of spare parts here from various hubs over the years, I've swapped out just about every part one at a time with nothing fixing the noise. I may just give up and stick the new internal set in this one but its sort of a beater bike that'll likely either end up getting sold or just kept for a guest loaner of sorts. It was a cosmetically perfect bike that I picked up for parts with a bad rear hub, I used most of the pristine parts on another bike and this one is going together with the old parts. It just seemed a waste of good parts to use those new bits which are getting harder and harder to find on a beater bike.
Dumb question dept.: is the hub the same dimension as other hubs (same width)? I was running into a problem with the left side crank rubbing on the bearing cup of the bottom bracket; ultimately what solved it was replacing the crank. This was on a 1972. But it wasn't the fault of the crank- it was the fault of the BB being ever so slightly wider than other BBs. The crank I installed allowed for more clearance.
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Old 07-21-20, 02:26 PM
  #22948  
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Originally Posted by billnuke1 View Post
Same as a “Scorcher“?
It looks like the bike is in a Sprinter cargo van the older generation which is referred to as a T1N by Mercedes.
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Old 07-21-20, 05:49 PM
  #22949  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Soon I'm going to clean up and reinstall the Rudge fork onto the Rudge frame. I saved the balls but they seem to have vanished in a cleanup, so I need new ones. It's a 1952 Rudge Aero Special, with 27 x 1 ¼ wheels, a clone of the Raleigh Super Lenton. So my question is how many balls does it need for the upper and lower bearings, and what size? I assume Grade 25 is a good choice.
Grade 25 is good. The headset uses 25 5/32" bearings in each race. You should always have some on hand when taking a Raleigh headset apart. It is well known that these bearings vanish into a parallel dimension once they hit a shop floor.
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Old 07-21-20, 06:44 PM
  #22950  
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
It looks like the bike is in a Sprinter cargo van the older generation which is referred to as a T1N by Mercedes.
Nissan nv200...perfect size...could never take the Sprinter where I take this...Perfect size, ‘cept for carrying bikes!
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