Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

First Cat5 Crit: Always this Fast?

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

First Cat5 Crit: Always this Fast?

Old 08-11-21, 09:04 AM
  #76  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,401

Bikes: Tsunami road bikes, Dolan DF4 track

Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 179 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep
Our two crit boys on the team have been doing well in 4/5 lately. It is what it is, but the vet guy has basically relegated to the newer younger guy to get that guy to win. That's what a team is all about. And proves it is a team sport.

I guess it made me a touch sad as the vet guy has done those races every weeknight for years to only net a single podium this year and only one ever. While the newer guy is just a perfect build for crit racing. Not tall, not a lightweight, not a diesel, and can sprint.

The veteran racer just suffers from a size versus power profile discrepancy. Imagine if Phil Gaimon wasn't 150 lbs but heavier given the same height, knowing the Gaimon power profile isn't really sprinter stuff. But he just loves doing crits mostly.

Weeknight worlds isn't a world tour race, but when the pro peloton is letting a break bake in the sun before pulling them back............what % of ftp are the folks on front of the peloton taking pulls at? Even if they pull on the front at 350w, 350 divided by a huge number is still well under 100% Our weeknight worlds, everyone seems to want to pull at VO2 power. Even if it isn't a rotation breakaway situation. It just makes no damned sense.
Two separate things here.

The first... the older rider may be getting something out of it. I'm sure he realizes that crits are just not for him, at least not normally. So to do better for the team overall, it behooves him to be a great leadout racer. There's pride in that work. I've tried it myself, although I'm not super suited for leadout duties - too peaky power curve, too short on the bike (no draft). So I ease onto the power and I leadout on the tops while sitting up as much as I can.

I had one teammate that had to have a perfect storm of circumstances to do well in a race. He had decent but not race winning power and speed. So he committed himself to leading out his teammates, and he loved it. He was super proud of his leadouts, and, trust me, the guys he was leading out were super appreciative. This was from the 1995 season.

https://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.c...f-minutes.html

(I forgot, many of the team riders were also building my shop, after shop hours, so we were working a full day at the shop, walked down the block to the new shop location, then worked another 5-6 hours literally building the new shop - loft, walls, etc. So the team was more than just a team, we worked together, we held the Bethel races together, we trained together, we leaned on each other for support, and we'd known each other for a while.)

And leadouts - it's really for the greater good, so to speak. This is my absolute favorite clip because so much went into the race before. The team was new (for 2010), we'd come together because we wanted to race with each other (many of us were friendly rivals the prior year, and in fact I raced "with" one teammate SOC even though we were on different teams in 2009), everyone came out to help with the race, they did Sweep Day the day before the first race of the Series, and they all came out to support me in my week of need. I was on form, yes, but I really struggled in some of the earlier races. This last week I had all the pressure built up after a month and a half of stress promoting the Series, dealing with perturbed land owners, the various grumpy racers, regular promoter stuff, and trying to be race well also.

Final week:

Cliff, my leadout guy that race, crosses the line at the very end of the finish line clip. He averaged about 100w more than I did for the race. My teammates managed to control a large, aggressive field, and they were, except for Cliff, basically Cat 3s and 4s. One strong rider was Lance, he upgraded from 5 to do the 3-4 race, and, as he put it, "the 3s go really hard compared to the 5s". Yes they do. In the clip you can see how demolished the field got. Leadout was at 35 mph, my HR dropped 5 bpm during the leadout, and I had one of my better sprints:

And as far as pulling goes - in lower level races (like Cat 3-4-5) I think most riders aren't thinking of just letting a break sit out there. It's catch them or not. So if I'm pulling to chase a break, it's a huge effort for me, 400w or something like that, and my 5 min record is about 270w. So the pulls are gigantic and short. Anyone pulling easy is "blocking" so everyone just goes around them.

In breaks, really, the onus is on the break to maintain a good speed. Initially it's relatively high, maybe 27-28 mph for a 3-4-5 field, to break the field's spirit, but then once established (30 second lead?) then the break can back down to a typical average speed, like 24-25 mph or so.

There's a story I love to tell about a very good Cat 1 (got 3rd at Elite RR in 2002 or so). He was fit, he was in a P12 crit (with some very good domestic pros present), and he attacked about 5 miles into a 50 mile race. He said that his tactic was really a mental one. He knew that if he could go 28 mph then the field would have to chase at 31-32 mph, and most riders wouldn't want to do that right off the bat. Plus it hurts, it's tiring, and other riders are sitting in.

Thing is that whenever he saw the field start to chase hard, he'd just step it up to 30 mph for a couple miles. Because, as he put it, then they'd have to go about 35 mph to catch him, and that's much harder than 30-31 mph.

So he raced algorithmically (he's a math teacher now). He held 28 mph on his "easy: laps, did 30 mph for a few laps at a time whenever the field chased. For a long time the gap was tantalizingly close, like 20 or 30 seconds, and every lap I thought, "wow, this is about the dumbest move ever, he's going to waste himself and get caught whenever the pack feels like catching". But the gap kept constant, and started creeping up 20-30 minutes in. There was one huge effort where he had to sustain over 30 mph for a bit when one rider, Graeme Miller, made a concerted effort to close the gap. That was spectacular as Miller, a very good pro, closed from bout 40 seconds out to within about 10 seconds of my friend. However my friend was churning out 30+ mph laps for 5 or 6 minutes and Miller could not close the last 100-150 meters or so.

What blows my mind is how nonchalantly my friend talked about going 28 or 30 mph, like it's no big deal. He rode alone for 45 miles. No aero wheels. No aero frame. Big helmet sitting high on his head. Cables all over the place. The most unlikely Cat 1. The field was NOT strung out in single file for half a lap - they were riding pretty hard the rest of the race. They only threw in the towel a couple laps from the finish, but only because now it was game on for second place.

I did a race there where I had no hopes of finishing, so I hoped they'd ring a bell for a prime early. I launched myself, went about 28-30 mph for one lap, sat up, and dropped out. haha. That was all I could do. My friend did that for 45 laps. Crazy.

So moral of the story is that if the break gets caught, it's not the field's fault. It's the break's fault. Either the break wasn't strong enough (normally the story) or the break messed up.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline  
Likes For carpediemracing:
Old 08-11-21, 09:29 AM
  #77  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,406

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 1,568 Times in 973 Posts
True that. Nice post.

I make a pretty small hole in the air due to being pretty average height and in a pretty aggressive riding position. So my draft isn't going to be nearly as helpful as a larger rider would be.

I'm not sure what my true power capabilities are under 2min. I don't really train that given the TT hobby. I've done indoors and outdoors both an honest 350 for 5min on the road bike and 1:40 at 475 on the TT bike. Indoors recently did 340 for 6:45min up Box hill. But those are one and done kind of things. I don't really have a 1min number. The hills in town are either longer than a minute OR shorter. Not really tried.

Life right now just doesn't really tailor itself to me racing anything but TT and cross. Someday. Once or twice a month weeknight worlds is it. Tried it all, always 2nd if the "big boys" show up. I'm just not strong enough.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 08-11-21, 09:54 AM
  #78  
Eric F 
Habitual User
 
Eric F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Altadena, CA
Posts: 7,785

Bikes: 2023 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2018 Trek Procaliber 9.9 RSL, 2018 Storck Fascenario.3 Platinum, 2003 Time VX Special Pro, 2001 Colnago VIP, 1999 Trek 9900 singlespeed, 1977 Nishiki ONP

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4828 Post(s)
Liked 7,819 Times in 3,704 Posts
Originally Posted by carpediemracing

The first... the older rider may be getting something out of it. I'm sure he realizes that crits are just not for him, at least not normally. So to do better for the team overall, it behooves him to be a great leadout racer. There's pride in that work.
Being a good leadout rider is a skillset on it's own. In my days as a Cat 3 sprint monkey, one of my best friends was also one of my favorite leadout guys. He was fearless, crafty, tactical, and sometimes hair-raising to follow, but he made holes and knew exactly where he needed to get me to so I could do what I did best. I couldn't do what he could, and he couldn't do what I could.
__________________
"Swedish fish. They're protein shaped." - livedarklions
Eric F is offline  
Likes For Eric F:
Old 08-12-21, 11:28 AM
  #79  
Hermes
Version 7.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,097

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1324 Post(s)
Liked 2,437 Times in 1,425 Posts
Hmmm. My power intervals are dishonest. I get a little bit more speed that way.
Hermes is offline  
Old 07-28-22, 09:47 PM
  #80  
Radish_legs
Senior Member
 
Radish_legs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 455 Post(s)
Liked 63 Times in 33 Posts
Originally Posted by Psimet2001
We always say that there is an inverse relationship between talent and the amount of talking about the race after the race finishes.
I was chatting up a storm after I won this week. Lol.
Radish_legs is offline  
Old 07-29-22, 07:21 AM
  #81  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times in 1,780 Posts
I think the most trash I ever talked about a race after it was over was this week when I raced (on Zwift) and "won" the A+ race as a low B. Of course, I was the only one in the race (it was part of a series where the points for finishers in all divisions get added together and I noticed no one from any team had signed up to race A+, so I won it with what was essentially a Z2 ride in order to help our total out), but after the As were going crowing about how they'd won our club championship chase race, I felt that I needed an easy win. Probably the only time I'll ever win an A+ race (unless no one shows up again this week and I sneak into the pen at the last minute again).
himespau is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.