Bike fit hurting front of knees of 27 year old male
#1
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Bike fit hurting front of knees of 27 year old male
I am an active 6 foot 27 year old who has skiied for a month straight with no issues. I have never been able to ride with my knees feeling comfortable on my bicycles on clipped in pedals (one is an aggressive bike, the other is more upright). I went to 2 bike fits which didn't solve the problem. I tried putting the cleats all the way back, I tried all shimano cleats, tried positioning the cleats so that my toes point a bit more out, tried 175,172.5, and 170mm cranks, tried increasing Q factor, different seat heights, fore aft positions, etc. The only thing I have not tried is cleats with more than 6 degrees of float and a midfoot cleat position. Do you think I should pay the money to try this? Is there anything else I can try?
The aggressive bike is merida scultura 8000e size L
upright bike is Trek Sport Fx4 size L
32.2 inch inseam
1st fit at endurancewerx in westchester
2nd fit At Ride Brooklyn
I do between 1 to 3 laps in central park 2 to 3 times a week. Each lap is 6.1 miles. My knees have been a problem from the first ride til the last. I have not increased my riding
The aggressive bike is merida scultura 8000e size L
upright bike is Trek Sport Fx4 size L
32.2 inch inseam
1st fit at endurancewerx in westchester
2nd fit At Ride Brooklyn
I do between 1 to 3 laps in central park 2 to 3 times a week. Each lap is 6.1 miles. My knees have been a problem from the first ride til the last. I have not increased my riding
#2
OM boy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,340
Bikes: a bunch
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 502 Post(s)
Liked 623 Times
in
425 Posts
so you're saying that when you ride with 'flat pedals', your knees don;t hurt ? (Whatever it is that 'hurts' - there's no way for anyone to have any real suggestions if there's no specific info how the knees 'hurt' and where it is...)
Have you gone back to the 'fitters' and commented or asked for their thoughts and recommended adjustments? What did they say?
Ride On
Yuri
Have you gone back to the 'fitters' and commented or asked for their thoughts and recommended adjustments? What did they say?
Ride On
Yuri
#3
Banned.
The midfoot cleat position may not solve your problem. I went mid foot for a year but eventually returned to the ball of the foot.
Midfoot resulted to less smooth pedaling and lower cadence and other issues. For a time, it felt easier due to more leg extension and easier on the ankles when standing on the pedals. But those advantages were only temporary as my ankles became stronger and more flexible, I was able to position at the ball of the foot just fine.
Midfoot resulted to less smooth pedaling and lower cadence and other issues. For a time, it felt easier due to more leg extension and easier on the ankles when standing on the pedals. But those advantages were only temporary as my ankles became stronger and more flexible, I was able to position at the ball of the foot just fine.
#4
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,800
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6099 Post(s)
Liked 4,730 Times
in
3,260 Posts
Are you pushing really hard on the pedals? Shift to a lower gear if you are. Pedaling should be easy and not require a lot of strength or muscle until you run out of lower gears.
I think you should go back to the people that fit you and ask them what's up. IMO, if fitters don't take you back for issues that don't get corrected, then I guess I'll never go to a fitter for issues.
I think you should go back to the people that fit you and ask them what's up. IMO, if fitters don't take you back for issues that don't get corrected, then I guess I'll never go to a fitter for issues.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Reno nevada
Posts: 781
Bikes: a few that I can't recall
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked 287 Times
in
142 Posts
"Where" on your knees?
In the joints themselves, like the actual pivoting part?
Or right at the top of the knee, jut behind the patella?
or general "huts" of the whole knee?
does anything else start to hurt before or after or simultaneously?
How much salt per day?
In the joints themselves, like the actual pivoting part?
Or right at the top of the knee, jut behind the patella?
or general "huts" of the whole knee?
does anything else start to hurt before or after or simultaneously?
How much salt per day?
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,780 Posts
Are you sure the seatpost didn't slip, causing the saddle to be lower than where it was when the fitter set you up? Whenever I have knee pain after a ride, my first check is always to measure center of BB to top of saddle and make sure it hasn't moved (but that's only because my seattube is ever-so slightly too wide for my seatpost and carbon grip paste only helps so much.
Likes For himespau:
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,096
Bikes: Trek 800 x 2, Schwinn Heavy Duti, Schwinn Traveler, Schwinn Le Tour Luxe, Schwinn Continental, Cannondale M400 and Lambert, Schwinn Super Sport
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 801 Post(s)
Liked 1,000 Times
in
654 Posts
The problem may be your knees, instead of the fitting. The muscles of the quadricep must be in balance, if not, the kneecap will pull to the side rather than track in the groove it was intended to ride in.
When I started bike racing, I did real well with little training. As I trained more, I became slower and slower. I went to the college health clinic and they told me I had Chondromalacia patella. Which means that my knee cap was not tracking right and the addition of the miles and harder training meant more problems.
That may or may not be your problem but it is something to consider. An orthopedic specialist should be able to diagnose the problem.
For me, I found that cross training or exercises aimed at balancing the muscles helped. I also quit bike racing and pursued other sports.
Keep us up to date on how things go with you. If you solve this with getting the correct fit or if it is a problem with your knee or something else.
When I started bike racing, I did real well with little training. As I trained more, I became slower and slower. I went to the college health clinic and they told me I had Chondromalacia patella. Which means that my knee cap was not tracking right and the addition of the miles and harder training meant more problems.
That may or may not be your problem but it is something to consider. An orthopedic specialist should be able to diagnose the problem.
For me, I found that cross training or exercises aimed at balancing the muscles helped. I also quit bike racing and pursued other sports.
Keep us up to date on how things go with you. If you solve this with getting the correct fit or if it is a problem with your knee or something else.
Likes For Velo Mule:
#8
Newbie
Been fitting for 12 years and have written several articles in lermagazine.com on this topic. As mentioned below, there is A LOT to figuring out the problem. You need to choose a bike fitter that knows what they are doing. I actually teach the bike fitters how to bike fit. My course is accredited by CPTA for physical therapists to be able to get CEUs for bike fitting. Need to find a bike fitter that has taken courses in anatomy, kinesiology, biomechanics, and physiology, and understands how to apply this to bike fitting. My partner (daughter) is a certified doctor in physical therapy, and helped in getting us to IBFI level 4 fitter status. Im in SoCal if you are near, if not, find a fitter that has the above education and knowledge.
#9
Banned.
That's exactly what cross training does like running or climbing steps or even squats that is help make your glutes stronger and develop muscle memory to engage the glutes.
I did exercises like running / jumping up and down the stairs, squats, and jumping as high as I can when I first started riding at a young age. Track sprinters also do the same set of exercises. But what's really important is adopting a pedaling technique and developing muscle memory that allows you to engage the glutes in cycling without having to do any cross-training. It can remove up to over half of the pressure from the knees if barely used your glutes in cycling before.
Many wonder how could some runners run for hours and not hurt the knees. You can adopt a very similar muscle engagement technique in cycling.
#10
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I am in Manhattan. Moving the cleats back is supposed to result in more glute use, but this didn't solve the problem. Seat tube doesnt move, I torque it to the right amount. The front of my knees at the kneecap (probably the patella) just feel that they are being pulled/pushed in a way it doesn't want to go, it isn't pain, it is discomfort, lack of smoothness and power. Sometimes it is only my left knee, sometimes only my right knee, and sometimes it alternates (5 mins each) during the ride, but it is never both knees at the same time during 2 pedal strokes. The brooklyn fitter said he increased the Q factor on my cleats and that caused a lot of discomfort at the lower part of both of my quads near the knee so I had to put the cleat Q factor back to normal. The knee discomfort increases when I try to push harder on the pedals. I never had these knee issues when running for exercise or sprinting 100% and pushing very hard in a baseball game. I never had any problems with flat pedals. I wanted to use clipped in pedals to be able to go faster. Fitter didn't respond to my email.. I don't eat much per day, maximum 2 meals, sometimes 1.
#11
OM boy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,340
Bikes: a bunch
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 502 Post(s)
Liked 623 Times
in
425 Posts
Put the flats back on the bike. Put a couple layers of duct tape on your shoe soles (arch to toe) - ride where you ride and with feet in position you think feels best. Don;t make any other changes to the bike or your position or posture. Use the same gearing at the same points (I know Central Park...) on the ride/loop you're doing. If you are varying the gearing now with the flats, that introduces another important variable - which you don;t want to do - but if you do, may point to gear use as part of the issues.
If you have older style rat-trap cages or newer pin style - both will/should leave a predominant mark of where the pedal cage/platform was and how it was oriented during the ride.
set up the clipless to mimic the same foot positions - there will likely be a difference between the right and left... You may have to take the pedals off the bike and hold to the shoe sole to be certain you have the clipless shoe in the same position as the shoe used with flats.
if you still feel 'not as good' with the clipless, then there likely is something in your pedal stroke technique which might be a focus for that.
Ride On
Yuri
If you have older style rat-trap cages or newer pin style - both will/should leave a predominant mark of where the pedal cage/platform was and how it was oriented during the ride.
set up the clipless to mimic the same foot positions - there will likely be a difference between the right and left... You may have to take the pedals off the bike and hold to the shoe sole to be certain you have the clipless shoe in the same position as the shoe used with flats.
if you still feel 'not as good' with the clipless, then there likely is something in your pedal stroke technique which might be a focus for that.
Ride On
Yuri
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Reno nevada
Posts: 781
Bikes: a few that I can't recall
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked 287 Times
in
142 Posts
The bike fitter(s) should know this, but:
Are you moving the seat forward OR upward?
You need to do both.
for a 72 degree frame, I would recommend moving seat forward 10mm, and upward 1.6mm.
Try this with no other changes.
You seem hypersensitive to positioning, so I am steering you towards being very precise.
===================================================
One other thing to try, just for kicks, is to move the seat up (stretch your legs) until your butt starts to hurt or until you can feel yourself rocking back and forth too much, then go back down about 5mm. This means ignoring the bike fitters and listening to your butt, LITERALLY adjusting the bike by the seat of your pants.
Are you moving the seat forward OR upward?
You need to do both.
for a 72 degree frame, I would recommend moving seat forward 10mm, and upward 1.6mm.
Try this with no other changes.
You seem hypersensitive to positioning, so I am steering you towards being very precise.
===================================================
One other thing to try, just for kicks, is to move the seat up (stretch your legs) until your butt starts to hurt or until you can feel yourself rocking back and forth too much, then go back down about 5mm. This means ignoring the bike fitters and listening to your butt, LITERALLY adjusting the bike by the seat of your pants.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 13,551
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4194 Post(s)
Liked 2,911 Times
in
1,780 Posts
One other thing to try, just for kicks, is to move the seat up (stretch your legs) until your butt starts to hurt or until you can feel yourself rocking back and forth too much, then go back down about 5mm. This means ignoring the bike fitters and listening to your butt, LITERALLY adjusting the bike by the seat of your pants.
#14
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,500
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3872 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times
in
1,369 Posts
^ Yeah. "Pain in front of knee, raise saddle. Pain in back of knee, lower saddle." That's quoted from the gospel.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#15
Newbie
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I previously raised my saddle a lot, which didn't solve the issue (there was still discomfort in the front of my knees) and one time when my seat was only marginally higher, I pulled my hamstring near the back of my knee when I was doing a sprint up a hill.
#18
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,800
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6099 Post(s)
Liked 4,730 Times
in
3,260 Posts
And as I ask before are you pushing a big gear ratio at a low cadence or in a low gear ratio at a high cadence?
#19
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,500
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3872 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times
in
1,369 Posts
Do you have cadence on whatever you use for a bike computer? If so, what's your normal cruising-on-the-flat cadence, what's your normal climbing cadence?
I don't we've asked yet where in the knee the pain is located, and if it's in the same location on both knees. Options would be: at the bottom center of the kneecap, at the top center of the kneecap, on the inside of the kneecap, on the outside of the kneecap, dead center in the knee cap, way off to the inside or outside of the knee i.e. not near the kneecap and on which side, in or out.
Does your current pedal/cleat combo have float? If so, a guess at how much to either side of center? And if so, are your cleats adjusted so that they are normally positioned in the middle of the float throughout the pedal circle?
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#20
Senior Member
I know a different gospel than others here. Went to different schools. Pain in back of knees - saddle too far back. Pain in front of knees - saddle too far forward.
Pulling a hamstring sprinting is unusual. More common would be throwing out your lower back. In fact sprinting causes lots of problems of which a hamstring pull barely makes the list. OP sounds like a very active person used to playing hard. >Cycling Is A Technical Sport.< Yes, you can just hop on a bike and go for a ride. Going for a hard hamstring-pulling sprint with uncertain equipment and not much warmup, yeah, that could cause problems. Three laps of Central Park is barely a warmup even if you structured it just so.
Knees heal real slow. Pulled ham is not a quick one either. Give yourself a break. Instead of asking online find someone to ride with. Maybe someone older with race experience. You are having too many problems and sounds like time to start over from scratch.
Pulling a hamstring sprinting is unusual. More common would be throwing out your lower back. In fact sprinting causes lots of problems of which a hamstring pull barely makes the list. OP sounds like a very active person used to playing hard. >Cycling Is A Technical Sport.< Yes, you can just hop on a bike and go for a ride. Going for a hard hamstring-pulling sprint with uncertain equipment and not much warmup, yeah, that could cause problems. Three laps of Central Park is barely a warmup even if you structured it just so.
Knees heal real slow. Pulled ham is not a quick one either. Give yourself a break. Instead of asking online find someone to ride with. Maybe someone older with race experience. You are having too many problems and sounds like time to start over from scratch.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,055
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked 1,246 Times
in
719 Posts
The midfoot cleat position may not solve your problem. I went mid foot for a year but eventually returned to the ball of the foot.
Midfoot resulted to less smooth pedaling and lower cadence and other issues. For a time, it felt easier due to more leg extension and easier on the ankles when standing on the pedals. But those advantages were only temporary as my ankles became stronger and more flexible, I was able to position at the ball of the foot just fine.
Midfoot resulted to less smooth pedaling and lower cadence and other issues. For a time, it felt easier due to more leg extension and easier on the ankles when standing on the pedals. But those advantages were only temporary as my ankles became stronger and more flexible, I was able to position at the ball of the foot just fine.
Likes For phughes:
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,672
Bikes: 82 Medici, 2011 Richard Sachs, 2011 Milwaukee Road
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1924 Post(s)
Liked 1,954 Times
in
1,086 Posts
My knees are of and on a mess. If I sometimes pedal hard while lifting my heel, my knees can hurt behind the knee cap. When I drop my heel to level, it is all good.
__________________
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Boulder County, CO
Posts: 4,370
Bikes: '80 Masi Gran Criterium, '12 Trek Madone, early '60s Frejus track
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Liked 434 Times
in
331 Posts
Do you stop pushing the pedals down when they won't go down any further? Are you trying to push 400 watts with a cadence of 70 rpm? Are you trying to push 400 watts without a sufficient warm-up? Are you trying to push 400 watts without sufficient low- to medium-stress mileage on your legs? I'm asking these questions because they relate to knee pain and they haven't been addressed.
Last edited by oldbobcat; 09-28-22 at 09:48 PM.
#24
Newbie
Join Date: Oct 2022
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have had five bike fits, all of which yielded different results. I don't discount them, each had insight and value. The most beneficial was one bike fitter who told me I was too tight and needed to open up my hips and bring mobility back to my body. That was life changing for me when it came to bicycle riding and comfort, I am able to ride in more aero positions without back ache. When it comes to knee pain, there could be several muscles involved that is bringing you pain, the biggest is the quad muscles, they might need to be more limber. Also get a massager and massage your quads and knees before and after a ride, I believe the pain that you have has to do with something that is going on with your body, not your fit. A bike fit should get to the bottom of a bad position that brings pain. Take your time before a bike ride, I spending 30 minutes prepping my body for a bike ride. Start your ride with a warm up in an easy gear, don't grind in heavy hears, try to spin. Focus on your pedal stroke from the 5 to 7 o'clock position, it makes a world of difference. When you get home, massage your knees and quads, ice your knees, use icy-hot cream if you need to on your knees. If you are still experiencing knee issues, visit a sports physical therapist. As I said when it comes to bike fits, despite all my bike fits, I find the heel to pedal approach to be one of the best ways to find your ideal saddle height. Do the heel to pedal method with your bike shoes on. I like using the knee over the pedal spindle for saddle fore-aft, it works for me. I had bike fitters that had me too far forward and too far backward resulting in knee pain. Drop the plumb bob from the tibial tubercle. The plumb bob should be right at your pedal spindle or half a centimeter behind it if you want to take the load off your hands. Good luck.