elcruxio

I have ultegra dual pivots with compressionless housings and kool stop pads. They're, fine... Not really on the same planet as GRX.

PeteHski

So you are in fact using the same brakes in the earlier video comparison. Nowhere have I even suggested that you require more braking performance for your personal needs. So you can kick that straw man down.

smd4

My brakes work so well I don't need to use Kool Stop pads.

smd4

Um. No.

I like GCN for its fun, entertaining personalities. No where did they mention the cable housing. And did you actually see how jacked-up the cable installation/quick release is on that bike? Hard to give it much credibility. But definitely fun to watch. I love Ollie.

Eric F 

Right. This is why comments about a lack of modulation control puzzle me.

elcruxio

The stock pads weren't better

smd4

Okay.

PeteHski

LOL.

Did you know Ollie has a rim-brake Pinarello as his personal bike? At least he did a couple of years ago.

smd4

'Cause he's all about aero, I suppose.

Eric F 

Hmmm...I don't know if SRAM brakes have a different response than Shimano, because I've only used Shimano. The lever feel is definitely different between my rim brake bikes and disc brake bikes, and I would agree that the disc brakes bite quicker, but (for me) that bite is still very controllable. I would not equate it to a lack of modulation, but just a more responsive bite. For me, swapping between bikes, making the lever feel adjustment in my actions only takes a moment, but I can understand why that might not be the case for everyone. It's not really different than the difference in brake pedal feel between my car and my wife's.

I did watch the video. I don't remember them talking about a lack of modulation control. Both of their tests included scenarios where stopping in as short a distance as possible was the goal, or a major factor, and disc brakes were clearly superior in their tests. A lack of modulation control would mean that you couldn't take a longer distance to stop, if you wanted to.

PeteHski

I'm pretty sure that wasn't it! I would need to watch his video again where he was debating which way to go. I think it was mainly because he could get a discount on the rim-braked frame and because he wanted to minimise weight for pure hill-climbing.

Eric F 

"According to some people..." Which people? Come with receipts.

smd4

That's surprising, because those guys seem to be all about the most modern tech.

tomato coupe

You're generally more capable of fine motor control when you're not having to supply a larger overall force, which is one reason why modulation of disc brakes can be better.

PeteHski

I've got one road bike on Shimano (105) and one on SRAM (Force) hydros. There isn't a lot of difference in lever feel and modulation. Both are very good and I rode the SRAM brakes on the L'Etape du Tour last summer in 40 degC heat. They remained consistent throughout on multiple epic descents. Not many guys were still on rim brakes.

PeteHski

Surprising that he chose rim brakes for his personal bike? I was a little surprised, but I think it was the big frame discount that swung it.

Eric F 

Great! Go ride and enjoy. I have dual-pivot Dua-Ace brakes on a couple of my older road bikes, and they definitely do a better job stopping the bike than the Campy Record brakes on my newer road bike.

Eric F 

My #1 road bike has Campy Record rim brakes. The lever feel and contact point are pretty different than the Ultegra hydro discs on my gravel bike. My SS MTB has Avid v-brakes. Compared to the XTR hydro discs on my newer MTB, the contact point is similar, but the discs bite quicker and need less lever force. This has been my experience. I understand that others might have a different experience.

Eric F 

I understand the logic of your statement, but in real world application, I'm not sure how accurate it is. Just because disc brakes bite quicker, and take less lever force/travel to get to lockup doesn't mean that's the only way to use them. I can very easily get the pads to just skim the rotor surface to shave off a tiny amount of speed, if that's what I need to do. I can do the same with rim brakes. Increased sensitivity doesn't necessarily mean less fine control is available, it's a matter of adapting our actions to match the brake sensitivity. This is what I've experienced. Maybe your experience is different.

One thing I've found is that on long, challenging MTB descents, when riding my singlespeed (v-brakes) I can sometimes feel my forearms start to tire from squeezing the brakes. I don't get the same feeling when riding the same descent on my disc brake MTB.

Atlas Shrugged

Having transitioned from top-tier rim brakes (Campy Super Record) to Dura Ace Disc brakes, yes, there was an adjustment period to adapt but it's silly to use that as an excuse for not changing. In fact it was the rim brakes which were inconsistent, wet or dry, they responded completely differently, and aluminum or carbon wheels also reacted differently. Each combination of those required adjustment to the braking technique. Disc is totally consistent across its use spectrum and suffers much less in that regard. Also, the lack of modulation trope is like driving a 1969 pickup without power brakes and then switching to a newer truck with power disc brakes and complaining they are too grabby because when you stomp on them with full force, they lock up. Did my rim brake bike stop great, yes, but my disc brake bike overall performs better.

PeteHski

I agree. Modulation is all about consistency. There is enough lever travel to provide force resolution (reach and bar clearance ultimately dictate lever travel) and the weighting of the lever is down to choice of master and slave cylinders in the hydraulic system. Obviously those are fixed by the manufacturer, but are based on what people generally prefer. Modulation of rim brakes is never going to match the consistency of hydraulics.

Another analogy is cable vs hydraulic clutch actuation in cars. I have one classic Porsche 911 with a cable actuated clutch and it is both heavy and inconsistent in its feel. Later models moved to a hydraulic clutch actuator, like pretty much all modern cars today. Lighter feel and more consistent and that's just from cable to hydraulic actuation of the same mechanism. For the same reason that's why nearly everyone prefers hydraulic to cable actuated disc brakes. Hydraulic actuators are inherently more efficient than equivalent cable actuators.

GhostRider62

Maybe I am just too sensitive but there is a massive difference in braking modulation between all of my 4 motor vehicles, when I go from my Land Cruiser to BMW, it can be scary how quick and responsive they are in comparison.

I get that everyone on this thread loves HRD brakes. But they are a PITA. Hoses vibrating. Slightly loose headset and death vibration braking on bumpy roads. Squeeling. Chattering. Bedding procedures. 1000 miles to wear out a set of pads. Adapter bracket slipping. On a $13,000 professionally build up bike. I never had any problems ever a rim braked bike. I'm committed to making it work and there is no way for me to change my mind WRT to sensitivity of the braking, I explained it in simple terms. The amount of lever travel to brake clamping force is much, much higher on my HRD brakes than any rim brake, this lack of sensitivity is a reduced modulation.

PeteHski

Hoses vibrating, adapter bracket slipping, loose headset and associated death vibration are bike build/design issues and certainly not inherent to SRAM HRD.

Squealing and chattering - do you get that in the dry? Is it front and rear, or just one end? Mine squeal in the wet, but rarely in dry conditions. Sounds like pad contamination or glazing. Have you tried different pads? Organic vs sintered? The only time I've had brake squeal in the dry was on epic alpine descents during a 40+ degC heat wave. The brakes simply got too hot and started squealing quite badly until they cooled off. I ended up changing those pads after that trip as they continued to squeal a little in normal conditions. It was my fault really for not switching to sintered pads for the alpine trip. I prefer the feel of organic pads for everyday use, but they don't tolerate heat quite so well and tend to wear quickly in the wet.

I get it that you think the lever weighting is too light for your personal preference. Shimano has similar lever weighting, so it's just something you will need to adapt to. You could maybe try smaller diameter discs to reduce braking torque, but probably not going to make much difference. Rim brakes simply have less overall braking power so you need to squeeze them harder for a given braking force.

Eric F 

If I was having those issues with my brakes, I might be less than thrilled with them, too. Neither of my Shimano disc brake bikes have had those issues. Some of your issues sound like tuning/maintenance problems, rather than being specifically related to the brakes. Again, I wonder how much of this has to do with differences between SRAM and Shimano systems.

The suggestion of smaller rotors might be worth a try. On my gravel bike, I was feeling like I wasn't getting as much stopping power as I wanted from my front brake, so I swapped the stock 140mm rotor for a 160mm, and it made the difference I was looking for. Since you are looking for less sensitivity, going to smaller rotors might put the feel closer to your comfort zone.

PeteHski

IME they are much the same. We currently have 1 bike on Shimano, 3 on SRAM and 1 on Magura. None of them have had any issues like this. If I had to pick one, I would say my Shimano road brakes have the best feel, but there is very little in it.