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Cyclists' safety ... on the road

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Cyclists' safety ... on the road

Old 06-19-19, 07:20 PM
  #51  
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@mcours2006 : generalizing that all drivers consider cyclists as an impediment is not fair : what about drivers that ride on weekends for example ? do you really think that driving a car turns them into apathetic beasts ? what about all the drivers that loved cycling when they were kids but this sick society forced them to use a car ? don't you think they might have some sympathy for you ? what about drivers that happen to think about switching to bikes but are still hesitant, don't you think they can be affected by the attitudes frustrated cyclists so eagerly exhibit ? what about a dangerous driver pissed by all the lights he has to endure : won't he envy a cyclist not giving a damn about them ? won't that make him even more dangerous ?
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us.
If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.

@Lesli: thank you too

@KraneXL: sounds like you feel a moral responsibilty to reciprocate .. How do you talk to them ?

@downhillmaster: Sorry for missing the nuance.. Let's rephrase the question : On what basis do you claim that virtually every adult knows right from wrong?
Besides, why would missing the (implicit) nuance invalidate what i am saying ?
Speaking of nuances, what happened to me wasn't an incident: it was an accident. I was almost killed by a hit-and-run driver. The accident happened because i broke my taillight and didn't buy a new one. I could have been furious about the driver leaving me behind bleeding on the pavement in the middle of nowhere. It might have even gained me a bit of your sympathy, but that's not what matters. I made a mistake and i want others to avoid it.

@Daniel4: looks like the discussion is becoming burdensome.. I didn't intend to confront anyone, i am just trying to answer all the people who bothered to engage in this topic.

@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
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Old 06-19-19, 10:22 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers
@mcours2006 : generalizing that all drivers consider cyclists as an impediment is not fair : what about drivers that ride on weekends for example ? do you really think that driving a car turns them into apathetic beasts ? what about all the drivers that loved cycling when they were kids but this sick society forced them to use a car ? don't you think they might have some sympathy for you ? what about drivers that happen to think about switching to bikes but are still hesitant, don't you think they can be affected by the attitudes frustrated cyclists so eagerly exhibit ? what about a dangerous driver pissed by all the lights he has to endure : won't he envy a cyclist not giving a damn about them ? won't that make him even more dangerous ?
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us.
If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.

@Lesli: thank you too

@KraneXL: sounds like you feel a moral responsibilty to reciprocate .. How do you talk to them ?

@downhillmaster: Sorry for missing the nuance.. Let's rephrase the question : On what basis do you claim that virtually every adult knows right from wrong?
Besides, why would missing the (implicit) nuance invalidate what i am saying ?
Speaking of nuances, what happened to me wasn't an incident: it was an accident. I was almost killed by a hit-and-run driver. The accident happened because i broke my taillight and didn't buy a new one. I could have been furious about the driver leaving me behind bleeding on the pavement in the middle of nowhere. It might have even gained me a bit of your sympathy, but that's not what matters. I made a mistake and i want others to avoid it.

@Daniel4: looks like the discussion is becoming burdensome.. I didn't intend to confront anyone, i am just trying to answer all the people who bothered to engage in this topic.

@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
"Always leave space for others to pass."

Now that you mention it, I sometimes find it fascination how some people can ignore this basic pattern of logic. Its pretty fundamental really, and we all lean the concept in middle school.

Maybe I would forget too if I wasn't tall, since people wanting to pass will almost instinctively cut the line at the tallest person. Anyway, being use to that, I preemptively leave them a space to pass.
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Old 06-20-19, 06:59 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers

@Hypno Toad: they infuriate me too. i deal with really dangerous situations every single day. i live in a country where bus drivers can get mad at you because you are standing in their way, waiting for the lights to turn green. What good does getting mad in such a situation ? go to the drivers window and tell him about the weather, the heat will immediately go away . Getting angry in a place where nobody gives a damn about anything is ABSURD.
In the end, i had to learn to appreciate the bike, healthy legs, paved roads and food when i get back home.
So please understand that i'm not focusing on drivers' feelings. In fact, i couldn't care less about their feelings if it wasn't for the fact that my life depends on them.
Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's ghandi's words.
Thank you for the perspective.

I live in a bike friendly place; I've used a bike where it's better than Minneapolis, and I've used a bike in places much worse.

To the point of my fowl mouth, I rarely swear at any random person on the road. Most road rage drivers get a smile & wave. It took me many years to stop responding to angry people with anger. The rare times I give all the bad words, that's for somebody that has put my safety at risk. The most common time for all the swear words is other people on bikes doing something stupid because they think they are going to be a pro racers ...
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Old 06-20-19, 07:14 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL
Maybe I would forget too if I wasn't tall, since people wanting to pass will almost instinctively cut the line at the tallest person. Anyway, being use to that, I preemptively leave them a space to pass.
I'd never heard that. You're standing in line, and line cutters choose the tallest person? Or is it when you're walking or running? Why?
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Old 06-20-19, 07:36 AM
  #55  
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The responses in this thread is the irony of the topic. If you want to project your will on others for "their benefit", don't be surprised if you get an occasional ***-off response. You may get a friendly reply but a ***-off under breathe.
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Old 06-20-19, 09:51 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers
@ThermionicScott : i wasn't aware we were talking about scolding other cyclists. Do you care for other cyclists' safety when you encounter them on the road ? Have you had any experience with advising them ?
Maybe you're not aware, but when people don't ask your advice before you tell them to do things differently, that's scolding. I'll repeat: does scolding work on you?
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Old 06-20-19, 10:58 AM
  #57  
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I've been looking for someone to scold me for nearly twenty years, the last one left in 2001.
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Old 06-20-19, 11:07 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers
@mcours2006 : generalizing that all drivers consider cyclists as an impediment is not fair : what about drivers that ride on weekends for example ? do you really think that driving a car turns them into apathetic beasts ?
Absolutely. 100%. Something about being surround, no insulated, by thick steel and glass, and sometimes with tinted glass, that makes a person become more bold in his/her actions. Has something to do with the anonymity he feels.

Originally Posted by holytrousers
what about all the drivers that loved cycling when they were kids but this sick society forced them to use a car ? don't you think they might have some sympathy for you ?
No. Something about being surround, no insulated, by thick steel and glass, and sometimes with tinted glass, that makes a person become more bold in his/her actions. Has something to do with the anonymity he feels.

Originally Posted by holytrousers
what about drivers that happen to think about switching to bikes but are still hesitant, don't you think they can be affected by the attitudes frustrated cyclists so eagerly exhibit ? what about a dangerous driver pissed by all the lights he has to endure : won't he envy a cyclist not giving a damn about them ? won't that make him even more dangerous ?
You are missing the point. It doesn't matter who the driver is. The fact that he's driving a vehicle and trying to gets somewhere means that he probably abhors anything that delays his arrival. What? A driver who rides on the weekend but car commutes during the week has more patience for a cyclist taking the lane in front of him when he's already 10 minutes late for work? Or the dad who sometimes rides his bike with his children is more understanding of a group of cyclists blocking an entire lane on Sunday morning when he's driving his little girl to piano lessons? Pulease.

Originally Posted by holytrousers
We are the weak minority here, we should act reasonably and consider seriously anything that can make the streets safer for us. If believing that small actions matter in the long run make me naive, that's okay for me. But i am sure that even if we won't enjoy their fruits during our lifetime, i am sure they are out there generating other small changes and so forth. Societies change little by little.
The #1 cause of the streets not being safe for us cyclists is drivers. Period. Me and my fellow cyclists stopping at a stop sign isn't going to do squat to make the streets safer. What will make the streets safer is proper cycling infrastructure. Period!
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Old 06-20-19, 11:15 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by u235
The responses in this thread is the irony of the topic. If you want to project your will on others for "their benefit", don't be surprised if you get an occasional ***-off response. You may get a friendly reply but a ***-off under breathe.
The irony is the OP is demonstrating to me why I don't give out unsolicited advice to strangers.

Last edited by Daniel4; 06-22-19 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 06-20-19, 12:10 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
I'd never heard that. You're standing in line, and line cutters choose the tallest person?
Yep, standing in line.
Or is it when you're walking or running? Why?
I was told it was because people prefer not to have to look in the face of others. It sounds plausible but half the people do still look up.
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Old 06-20-19, 05:01 PM
  #61  
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@Hypno Toad : thank you for showing empathy.
@u235 and @Daniel4 : the responses in this thread are emotionally loaded. We are not prepared to deal with the constant danger of being killed. Feeling rebellious is a legitimate response. But it shouldn't make us blind to the consequences of our own behaviour.
@ThermionicScott : scolding involves an aggressive attitude. Advising on the other hand is friendly and neutral. when scolding you put yourself above, when advising you put yourself beside.
@mcours2006 : driving a car makes people bold and impatient, i agree. but the situation isn't as dramatic as you are putting it, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing about it. Drivers can be courteous and patient. And they are more likely to be courteous and patient with a courteous and patient cyclist than with an agressive and impatient one. Exclamation point.
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Old 06-20-19, 09:43 PM
  #62  
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Do you know how many people have tried to "help me" by telling me I should be riding on the sidewalk instead of the road. They have the best intentions and probably truely feel they are trying to help me and looking out for my safety. Ok that's extreme but I do not consider it rebellious to not try to tell another random unknown adult that I might disagree with something they are doing. That's just me I guess.

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Old 06-21-19, 12:58 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Absolutely. 100%. Something about being surround, no insulated, by thick steel and glass, and sometimes with tinted glass, that makes a person become more bold in his/her actions. Has something to do with the anonymity he feels.
That's called the internet.
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Old 06-21-19, 06:28 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by u235
I do not consider it rebellious to not try to tell another random unknown adult that I might disagree with something they are doing.
When someone has to say something like this, it is pretty clear the conversation has slipped the bonds of rationality and sadly, likely not even such a seemingly rational statement will be enough to rein it in.
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Old 06-21-19, 07:04 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast
That's called the internet.
Yep. I was told in a different forum yesterday how lame I am because I use Strava to gauge my rides and see how I am progressing. I am never going to have a KOM or likely be in the top 10 on any well ridden segment and I'm fine with that. I live in an area with a very active cycling community with a handful of colleges/universities with very successful cycling programs and none of the roadies that I've ridden with would ever tell me something like that to my face.
Anonymity allows people to be <whatevers>.
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Old 06-21-19, 05:46 PM
  #66  
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@u235 : I am afraid you misunderstood me. i never said that ignoring others or restraining oneself from commenting others behaviour was rebellious.

@Rollfast : exactly! The internet keeps us in a bubble where we are projecting our own feelings on everything we read. That's what the thread was about : getting out of the bubble and talking about cyclists' safety in the real world.

@Maelochs : there is a lot of misunderstanding in a real conversation, let alone in a forum..

@bakerjw : anonymity reveals what's inside the heads of other people. it's a blessing, in a way..
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Old 06-21-19, 07:15 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by u235
Do you know how many people have tried to "help me" by telling me I should be riding on the sidewalk instead of the road. They have the best intentions and probably truely feel they are trying to help me and looking out for my safety. Ok that's extreme but I do not consider it rebellious to not try to tell another random unknown adult that I might disagree with something they are doing. That's just me I guess.
That would indicate the presumption that ALL adults are reasonable, rational, intelligent individuals. Is that what you believe? Otherwise, why would you take that philosophy?

If you saw spousal abuse would you intervene? What about child abuse? In these cases you're bound by moral, ethical and sometimes legal requirements to do something. Even if you ignore morality altogether, under the right circumstance you could be charged with a crime for failing to act.
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Old 06-21-19, 07:29 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL
That would indicate the presumption that ALL adults are reasonable, rational, intelligent individuals. Is that what you believe? Otherwise, why would you take that philosophy?

If you saw spousal abuse would you intervene? What about child abuse? In these cases you're bound by moral, ethical and sometimes legal requirements to do something. Even if you ignore morality altogether, under the right circumstance you could be charged with a crime for failing to act.
In your fallacy filled totally unrelated absurd comparisons that are crimes and probably felonies.... I'd probably call the police. You put ALL things "wrong" into one general equal pool. Next time I see someone doing something on a bike that I wouldn't do, I'll call the police for that too I guess or if I am around during an armed robbery should I walk up to and tell the perps they are doing something very wrong and unsafe. Please advice.

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Old 06-21-19, 08:46 PM
  #69  
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Okay ... this thread has hit the A&S apogee and can only decay from here .... When doing an Idaho stop is equated with abusing children, the thread has hit A&S perfection.

We should all feel soiled.
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Old 06-22-19, 12:10 AM
  #70  
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Too much Gatorade. Mercy.
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Old 06-22-19, 05:28 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
When someone has to say something like this, it is pretty clear the conversation has slipped the bonds of rationality and sadly, likely not even such a seemingly rational statement will be enough to rein it in.
People aren't rational on the road. Who would expect them to be rational on the internet?
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Old 06-24-19, 01:12 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL
Incorrect. On both accounts. Peer pressure has a very distinct impact on human behavior.
Isn't that how bar fights start?
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Old 06-25-19, 11:37 AM
  #73  
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For night cycling ...

always make sure you are well lit up, since many folks do not have any lights, I have noticied.
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Old 06-29-19, 05:13 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by BobKl
always make sure you are well lit up, since many folks do not have any lights, I have noticied.
yes i am amazed at how little awareness there is among cyclists concerning the dangers involved in riding without lights. how do you tell them about it ?
On my last commute i saw a cyclist ahead of me by 500m crossing at one moment the highway only to take the (less busy) offramp of the opposing direction. I met him, later and warned that his shortcut was very dangerous (the ramp had a tight curve and only one lane which means meeting a truck would for sure kill him) besides he was wearing headphones with probably loud music because he didn't notice me. He was sorry and started complaining about his tiring commutes and his new job and thanked me for the advice..

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Old 07-06-19, 04:53 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Do you honestly think that you can change the way drivers feel about cyclists by stopping at stop signs and obeying ALL the rules of the road? You are much more naive than I first thought. They don't give a rat's ass about you regardless of what you do on the road. You, as a cyclist, and you as a fellow motorist, are only an impediment to them, keeping them from getting from A to B as quick as possible. Motorists have disdain for just about anyone on the road, in front of them, beside them, behind them, other motorists, pedestrians, cyclists, you name it. As @DrIsotope stated, the best you can hope for is that they run you over.
I disagree with that generalization. Yes, some motorists are complete a-holes. Others are decent folks. Kinda like cyclists, I'm finding out...
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