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Wow - the carbon bits from China are starting to look pretty impressive

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Wow - the carbon bits from China are starting to look pretty impressive

Old 12-29-10, 08:20 AM
  #251  
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Originally Posted by Walter
That is a shame about Litespeed. They were a very high standard of quality and a reputable company. ABG seems intent on pissing that away.

I own a 2001 Ultimate that I scored NOS off eBay awhile back but that seems to be around the cut-off date for when LS was really LS.

Shame...
I was not aware of this. I have been coveting a C1R and did get a bit of a cold shoulder. They have not been much help finding a bike for me to see or ride. Buying a $3k frame without seeing it in person is not something I am rich or stupid enough to do.
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Old 12-29-10, 08:32 AM
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Sixty Fiver - what I meant was, if you think manufacturing bikes on anything but the small shop scale is viable in North America -- go for it. Put together a business plan that will show how you'll make money, and go get financing, and take the risk. There's a reason why nobody is doing it on anything besides a custom-build size shop.
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Old 12-29-10, 08:38 AM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver
It is not about nationality and shopping local is important but it goes deeper.

Countries like ours and many countries in Europe were at one time, great industrial nations and now we have become nations of consumers... and debtors.

We buy a lot, but produce less and less.

Pretty soon, China will cease to be a source of cheap labour and they will follow Taiwan and Japan where the standard of living and wages have increased which makes local production too expensive... this is already happening in China.

So where do the jobs go next ?

I figure that soon people will be talking about how great these Indian and African made frames are and "Made in China" will be like "Made in Japan" in that these goods will no longer be cheap.

Would be nice to see the next wave of production have a "Made in USA" sticker or a "Made in Canada" sticker and maybe we could be like BobD and say, I just live a few miles down the road from the factory that made my stuff and this stuff is great.

If our economies continue to falter we may just be willing to provide some cheap labour just so people have jobs.
Don't take this wrong, just trying to play devil's advocate here.

The US economy is approximately $14 trillion GDP. The second/third closest, Japan and China, 4 and 3 trillion respectively. So apparently 1 billion Chinese still can't touch us when it comes to making stuff and being an economic powerhouse. Could we do better? Sure we could. But this doom and gloom stuff is out of control when it comes to all of our jobs going overseas.

We definitely could do better as a country in the US.

Where was the computer you are typing on or mobile device you are using made??? Not in the US. That stuff hasn't been made in NA in mass production ever.

A large amount of the things you rely on and use everyday are not made within 5 thousand miles of where you live. That is just the reality of the world we live today now that other countries are playing catchup and realize that capitalism is really the only way to thrive and be self sustaining. All other forms of goverment/economy have failed in the past. We just need to be a little smarter about it here I think.

I wouldn't buy this bike becuase they are obvious crap, no R&D involved and probably rides like garbage.
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Old 12-29-10, 08:41 AM
  #254  
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Walter you know that FL is special, who knows how much money is running around to stop the processes , the other fact is that you can't blame somebody trying to make an extra buck, that's the reason many products are being made or brought form ASIA right now. The other fact is that taiwan had the lead working with composites, nobody does it like them, so it was just a mere thing of time for china to get its hands in the carbon products manufacturing, thing that in my opinion have been doing pretty good lately.

Cycling industry is dead in many countries, Caloi brazil was the biggest bike factory in the world back in the day but now it is just nothing, American companies are trying to survive and if the asian people can manufacture cheaper with the same or almost the same QC then why not increase the revenue this way then? It is fair after all. The main problem is that this situation leaves a lot of people w/o a job, not only cycling is affected because one industry moves other industries also.

You can't blame guys that are self sponsoring their cycling needs (like 90% of this forum for sure), you go just where it is cheaper. Besides you have to consider than the 3000 bucks trek, cervelo or pinarello frame for sure do not cost more than 500 to 1000 dollars to the factory, so the question who is to blame in here? The one who is trying to get the stuff because it is too expensive for him and can't afford the real thing?, or the one who is basically having huge margins?

Sincerely if the chinese are giving something to the buyers that satisfies their needs it is an indication that something is going on in the internal market, sometimes it is not good being greedy. And yes chinese are manufacturing good stuff after all.
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Old 12-29-10, 08:46 AM
  #255  
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GDP is not just about making stuff.

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Old 12-29-10, 08:51 AM
  #256  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Here's another problem with Chinese goods: right now the Road Bike Review and MTB Review boards are full of people moaning about how their 5 year old Litespeeds detonated and ABG (American Bicycle Group) is not honoring the warranties. ABG are just being weasels of course (the Chattanooga TN Better Business Bureau gives them an 'F' rating, this is their standard operating procedure, so think about that before you buy a Litespeed, Merlin or QR), but apparently the word is that they were buying cheaper Ti tubing from China a few years back, far inferior to the stuff they were using before. That's a key, the quality of the materials, and given Chinese companies' notorious reputation for ruthlessly cutting corners to save money (some firms literally don't care if it winds up killing you), I'd be rather circumspect about getting too excited about buying no-name Chinese stuff and expecting it to perform like a Cervelo or Trek. In other words, you are taking your chances here.
Off topic but anyone know of the years that are referred to herein? I have an 04 Firenze.
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Old 12-29-10, 08:57 AM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by Herbie53
I was not aware of this. I have been coveting a C1R and did get a bit of a cold shoulder. They have not been much help finding a bike for me to see or ride. Buying a $3k frame without seeing it in person is not something I am rich or stupid enough to do.
I'm sure the new LS stuff is good, even very good. It's the change in the company's culture, as it were, that I'm lamenting. I don't fully get the switch to CF. I'm not anti-CF but they are known for Ti and now they're competing against brands that have been in CF for a long time, relatively speaking. I'm not in their management circle though so I'm sure it makes sense to them.
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Old 12-29-10, 09:02 AM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by ultraman6970
Walter you know that FL is special, who knows how much money is running around to stop the processes , the other fact is that you can't blame somebody trying to make an extra buck.......

. And yes chinese are manufacturing good stuff after all.
UM, we've been through this before and you know I'm not condemning Chinese product in toto but the drywall example is egregious.

I'm stating caveat emptor and I would do the same if some brand new N. American company began mass producing CF or anything else at prices far below competitors.

Might be great deals, might not be. Just keep your eyes open.
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Old 12-29-10, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by robabeatle
Off topic but anyone know of the years that are referred to herein? I have an 04 Firenze.
2000-2005, but generally they seem to have a reputation of blowing off warranty claims. I'd never buy a product from that group.
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Old 12-29-10, 09:04 AM
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The best definition of GDP is the simplest: Value of final goods and services produced within national boundaries during a year.
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Old 12-29-10, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mmmdonuts
I was half agreeing with you and supporting the point that it's the responsible companies that make it work, not the manufacturers of the goods. So Pacific rim products is a generalization with undeserving negative connotations...
The negative connotations are appropriate, unfair or not. Anyone who follows business at all knows this is where the highest quality stuff in the world from iPhones to Cervelos is made, and also where toxic Chinese sheetrock came from. It's really just an admonition to watch your ass.
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Old 12-29-10, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Walter
The best definition of GDP is the simplest: Value of the bike schwag purhcased by Pcad during a year.
Fixed
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Old 12-29-10, 09:08 AM
  #263  
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It is a sizable % of GDP to be sure but you've got to stop hitting up eBay to really impact GDP, you know.
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Old 12-29-10, 09:22 AM
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What does GDP have to do with the fact that manufacturing jobs, the historical foundation of the lower-middle class, are a thing of the past in this country because they are all in China?

Originally Posted by techlogik
Don't take this wrong, just trying to play devil's advocate here.

The US economy is approximately $14 trillion GDP. The second/third closest, Japan and China, 4 and 3 trillion respectively. So apparently 1 billion Chinese still can't touch us when it comes to making stuff and being an economic powerhouse. Could we do better? Sure we could. But this doom and gloom stuff is out of control when it comes to all of our jobs going overseas.

We definitely could do better as a country in the US.

Where was the computer you are typing on or mobile device you are using made??? Not in the US. That stuff hasn't been made in NA in mass production ever.

A large amount of the things you rely on and use everyday are not made within 5 thousand miles of where you live. That is just the reality of the world we live today now that other countries are playing catchup and realize that capitalism is really the only way to thrive and be self sustaining. All other forms of goverment/economy have failed in the past. We just need to be a little smarter about it here I think.

I wouldn't buy this bike becuase they are obvious crap, no R&D involved and probably rides like garbage.
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Old 12-29-10, 09:23 AM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by ultraman6970
Walter you know that FL is special, who knows how much money is running around to stop the processes , the other fact is that you can't blame somebody trying to make an extra buck, that's the reason many products are being made or brought form ASIA right now. The other fact is that taiwan had the lead working with composites, nobody does it like them, so it was just a mere thing of time for china to get its hands in the carbon products manufacturing, thing that in my opinion have been doing pretty good lately.

Cycling industry is dead in many countries, Caloi brazil was the biggest bike factory in the world back in the day but now it is just nothing, American companies are trying to survive and if the asian people can manufacture cheaper with the same or almost the same QC then why not increase the revenue this way then? It is fair after all. The main problem is that this situation leaves a lot of people w/o a job, not only cycling is affected because one industry moves other industries also.

You can't blame guys that are self sponsoring their cycling needs (like 90% of this forum for sure), you go just where it is cheaper. Besides you have to consider than the 3000 bucks trek, cervelo or pinarello frame for sure do not cost more than 500 to 1000 dollars to the factory, so the question who is to blame in here? The one who is trying to get the stuff because it is too expensive for him and can't afford the real thing?, or the one who is basically having huge margins?

Sincerely if the chinese are giving something to the buyers that satisfies their needs it is an indication that something is going on in the internal market, sometimes it is not good being greedy. And yes chinese are manufacturing good stuff after all.
although I don't disagree with you, a point about a $3000 retail frame. If it is $3000 retail, the wholesale (what the LBS pays) price is probably closer to $2000 + Shipping. Further, as Bob pointed out, the way the american companies deal with the production QC is by having people in the factory watching them being produced, then they have to ship them to the US to finish them, then ship the to the bike shop. Plus they had to design the frame, warranty the work, advertise the product, etc. So in the end, the $300 frame isn't really $300 marked up 1000% It isn't all roses and ripoffs.

The chinese have none of these expenses. The R & D is done for them (via Trek, etc) and they just blow them out the door at factory prices (ie what Trek etc pay for them).
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Old 12-29-10, 10:18 AM
  #266  
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Walter - companies make decisions to make money. Sales of Ti bikes are probably flat at best, while sales of CF bikes continue to grow. Any bike mfg that wants to grow their high end bike sales has to be in CF.
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Old 12-29-10, 10:39 AM
  #267  
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it's so simple i can't believe this has got to so many pages.

there are good producers and bad producers in china. buy from a reputable domestic importer, either a bike brand or distributor or retailer, who has a reputation for reliability. This limits the risk of the product coming from a bad producer because they either control the quality at production, or they only buy the high quality output, or they are willing to warranty bad items. simple.
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Old 12-29-10, 10:46 AM
  #268  
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There is plenty of margin to make things in the USA, but when business schools started flooding companies with new MBAs, they had to justify their existence. So instead of a nice 50% margin, their eyes got big when they thought they could get away from manufacturing and make 100+% margins by importing everything. It's fine when you are the only company doing it, but when they all do it - NO ONE HAS A DECENT JOB TO AFFORD TO BUY ANYTHING! Anyway, call it greed, smart business, or whatever. The long term result is lots of crappy stuff that doesn't last, and a very uncertain future.

I love my 6 series Trek Madone, but I don't think I'll have the option of a USA built bike from Trek in the very near future. I also plan on sending Zipp a big check this Spring. Yes, I believe in US manufacturing!
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Old 12-29-10, 10:58 AM
  #269  
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Originally Posted by billyymc
Walter - companies make decisions to make money. Sales of Ti bikes are probably flat at best, while sales of CF bikes continue to grow. Any bike mfg that wants to grow their high end bike sales has to be in CF.
Like I said I'm sure it makes sense to their management. During the 90s LS made a huge name for themselves with Ti. If they can transfer that to CF it should turn out to be a good move. More margin in CF than Ti to be sure.

That and stop generating bad press by being jerks with warranty claims.
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Old 12-29-10, 11:23 AM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Here's another problem with Chinese goods: right now the Road Bike Review and MTB Review boards are full of people moaning about how their 5 year old Litespeeds detonated and ABG (American Bicycle Group) is not honoring the warranties. ABG are just being weasels of course (the Chattanooga TN Better Business Bureau gives them an 'F' rating, this is their standard operating procedure, so think about that before you buy a Litespeed, Merlin or QR), but apparently the word is that they were buying cheaper Ti tubing from China a few years back, far inferior to the stuff they were using before. That's a key, the quality of the materials, and given Chinese companies' notorious reputation for ruthlessly cutting corners to save money (some firms literally don't care if it winds up killing you), I'd be rather circumspect about getting too excited about buying no-name Chinese stuff and expecting it to perform like a Cervelo or Trek. In other words, you are taking your chances here.
You are scaring me. I got no dogs in this chase (because I got my Merlin used.) But it would suck if my bike detonates ....
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Old 12-29-10, 11:34 AM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by tuxbailey
it would suck if my bike detonates ....
You think CF makes a mess when it detonates--you don't want to know what a ti bike looks like when it goes kaboom!
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Old 12-29-10, 11:46 AM
  #272  
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Originally Posted by Walter
UM, we've been through this before and you know I'm not condemning Chinese product in toto but the drywall example is egregious.

I'm stating caveat emptor and I would do the same if some brand new N. American company began mass producing CF or anything else at prices far below competitors.

Might be great deals, might not be. Just keep your eyes open.
Again, if I was looking at a no-name Chinese company and a no-name N American company, I would go with the N American and pay more for it. A N American company can certainly blow off a warranty, but there is some level of recourse here. You can sue the company if it comes down to it. You can report them to the BBB, you can even get your state District Attorney involved because in general, we have consumer protection laws that are mostly enforced. With a Chinese company, you get nothing. Its not even worth pursuing because everyone knows you will get nowhere with the Chinese authorities.
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Old 12-29-10, 01:23 PM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by flatlander_48
I used to frequent Cosby II (never liked Cosby I, too much like a hole in the wall) and a co-worker told me about Cow Boy's shop. That's how I wound up going there. It was about 3 blocks away and around the corner. Just before I left town, he opened a 2nd shop on the street where the baseball stadium is/was (can't think of the name). His plan was to eventually consolidate at the new location, but I don't know if that happened. I heard the Robert (never knew his family name) eventually closed Cosby II. I was really surprised to come to Taichung to find that Robert had opened a branch here. Anyway, Cow Boy was a neat guy and a lot of fun to be around. I rode with him and his bunch once. Sort of weird to see 3 or 4 guys light up during our rest breaks...



Vee Haff Our Vays...
Yeah, Cowboy opened another shop on Da Shui Rd (which he has since closed) and a fourth on Chung Hwa Nan Rd which is still open. His shop on Fung Yi is still busy and stacked to the rafters with boxes of stuff.
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Old 12-29-10, 01:24 PM
  #274  
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Originally Posted by tuxbailey
You are scaring me. I got no dogs in this chase (because I got my Merlin used.) But it would suck if my bike detonates ....
Oh so what. If the stupid bike breaks you have a great excuse to buy a new bike. Don't worry about it, even the worst Ti frames don't detonate 90% of the time.
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Old 12-29-10, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Don't worry about it, even the worst Ti frames don't detonate 90% of the time.
Mine did in 1995. And it was a Merlin. I left the frame out with the trash.
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