GhostRider62

You are doing something very wrong to gain 10 pounds. Wow. If you are saying you started PBP and upon finishing, you weighed 10 pounds more, something is wrong. Swelling isn't the cause, it is the result.

Try to figure out your sweat loss on normal rides. The weather is cool on PBP, I would be surprised if hourly sweat losses are more than 8-12 oz on average. For me, the daytime averages are a little more and the night losses are a little lower. Estimating sweat loss gets complicated on long training rides because I tend to end them in a glycogen depleted state and each gram of glycogen has 3-4 grams of water with it. For instance, I went on a hard and hilly 3 hour ride in 35-45F temps the other day. I lost 1% of weight. I had consumed about 16 oz of water to thirst (maybe 2/3 of the bottle). Afterwards, I drank a glass of water and had lunch. All better. YMMV.

Tourist in MSN

If you had noticeable swelling, you have or had a medical issue. If you did not have noticeable swelling, the scale read wrong. If you have a re-occurrence, you should have a doctor decide what lab tests should be run and those test samples should be collected quickly before you get back to normal. And a blood pressure check for sure.

I had a problem that involved a lot of swelling, when I got back into USA, I was at my Doctor's office within 24 hours and their lab tests showed that I had some weird things going on, very high blood pressure, etc.

GhostRider62

Also, be careful of using ibuprofen during endurance events. I saw my MD a day after a hilly, hot 300km and the blood work was legendary in his office, make sure you tell the Doc and explain what such an event entails.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28679502/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3366912/

https://ultrarunning.com/features/we...100-mile-race/

samkl 

Well yeah, upon reflection I injured my ankle during PBP and was prescribed prednisone afterwards. So that probably explains it...

GhostRider62

Ok......so, you did not gain a rather shocking 10 pounds during PBP.

samkl 

Well, from the last time I weighed myself before PBP to the first time I weighed myself afterwards, I gained 10 lbs. But yeah, as I said, probably explained by other things.

Morimorimori

Then I don't know what I do wrong.. Because on my 200km rides before, I had to eat A LOT of carbs, otherwise I got bonked regularly. As someone suggested before, I actually tried to count the carbs I consumed, and number for my last ride (200km with 2000m of total elevation, on a cold rainy day, with about 9 hours spent in saddle ) are as such: 3700kcal and 670g of carbs. Despite that I tried to eat some sweet things regularly, I still felt like I'm about to bonk 3 times, and had to use an emergency gel to prevent it. My avg heartrate was at 130 may be, and maximum was at 160 (hit it only once on a particularly steep climb, I tried to not go above 140 in general).

I tried to run low on carbs earlier this year, and it always ended in a bonk in 3-4 hours for me. The usual routine was: I ate a big carb-reach breakfast (700-900kcal total), then rode 3 hours using sweet isotonic only (700ml with 35g of carbs in it) as my only source of carbs - that's how far I can go before I start to feel like bonk is closing on me. I still could toughen up and run for may be an hour more, top - but with more and more fatigue and more and more frustration and suffering. Usually I don't strain myself like that, and just start eating some sweets (jellybeans, bananas, carbo-bars etc) at the end of the 2nd hour of riding. But even that doesn't mean I won't get bonk later anyway.

And I don't even ride at some exhausting tempo, my heartrate is at 125-130 on average, and speed is about 25-27kph (not that high for a roadbike on pavement). I could probably try to achieve even lower heart-rates, but then my speed will be laughable and I definitely won't be able to achieve my goal (27-30kph on a long rides).

unterhausen

I have gotten swollen ankles after grand randonnees. Not PBP, thankfully, I would be afraid to fly home.

GhostRider62

Try doing your training even slower, at a lower heart rate. Paradoxically, this will speed you up and give you more endurance if done for 4-6 months time. If I understand correctly, you have a max HR of 160 and average 130 bpm on a brevet?

As a point of reference, if this helps...I dunno, on my last 200K, my average HR was 112 and the highest I hit that day was 120 (it was unseasonably warm, I was not fit. Normally, my average is 100-105 bpm). I can hit 183 on a treadmill and my highest self inflicted HR on a bike recently is 172 bpm but could probably do 175 if I had do. My threshold HR is around 150-153. Sorry if this is too detailed. My resting HR is 60, so I have a range of 112 beats on my heart (172-60). If I average 112 beats on a ride, this is 46% of my range (112-60 divided by 112). Another to look at it is percentage of threshold HR or about 58%. At these levels, type 1 slow fibers can meet demand using almost all fat (when trained). You are probably closer to 70-75% and this level of effort takes a lot of glycogen and so yes, it is easy to bonk. I would slow down a little for now. In any case, GL.

Morimorimori

That's correct, usually my heartrate averages somewhere between 125 and 135 on rides over 100kms. At brevets I try to keep it at about 125-130 on plains, and below 140 on uphills, if possible. Thought sometimes I can just get carried away on a long downhill with a tailwind, and get over 140 beats while speeding down the road

I can't even imagine how to reach such heartrates, tbh. I tried, honestly tried riding very slow - still barely could reduce it to 125 beats on average, on 100+kms rides. First problem is uphills - it's often hard to keep it even under 140 when climbing; occasionally there is steep hill I can only climb on the lowest gear and with my heartrate at 150-160.. And I'm climbing so slow at these moments it's painful on itself Like, 10kph or something. Then, as fatigue grows, it becomes hard to stick to low heartrate even on plains, you just don't pay attention to your headunit for may be 10 mins, and then boom - you are already at 140, though you didn't even feel like it. If I'll be running it at 110 beats, I'm afraid my average speed will drop below the threshold needed to get to finish in time.

At the same time, I check the other guys who ride the same routes with me - most of them are seasoned randonneurs, and ALL of them have either the same heartrate as me, or even higher. And ride faster, some of them MUCH faster than me..

GhostRider62

It is about training. Efficiency and stroke volume. Lots and lots of Zone 2 riding.

If you are happy with your riding, why make a change. Keep at it. It is very hard to give useful advice. To be honest your objective of 125-130 beats per minute sounds high but you could be very young. Getting the sleep you desire is also very difficult.

I normally get 240-250 watts at 120 beats when fit. It only took me about 150 watts average to do PBP in like 54 hours total. At 200 watts average, most average sized riders would be finishing in 43-44 hours. This is why it seems to me that 125-130 average HR is too high in addition to your running out of gas. The best way to go fast is not to stop at all, just to get your card stamped.

Randonneuring is not about power as much as it is about energy efficiency, balancing output and intake with consideration to rest. Hard efforts should be very rare on a brevet. Managing the gut is also critical. You have to figure it out, sort thru some of the ideas and try them out.

Morimorimori

Is it a typo, or something?.. 240-250 at 120 beats? May be 140-150, otherwise it's a stellar fitness out there At 250W my pulse will be at 160 in 10 minutes..

ThermionicScott 

This is a late comment, and tangential, but I wonder if my fluid/electrolyte intake might be to blame for my feet swelling and developing hot spots on long rides...

GhostRider62

Not a typo. Proper training for endurance will increase the amount of blood in each beat. You want to become like a diesel motor instead of a high revving 4 banger. The most straight forward person to look up is Alan Couzens. He has an old blog and is very active on Twitter. He is an exercise physiologist and coach who mostly works with Ironmen who frankly have similar training objectives. Getting the sleep you require and finishing in 90 hours is possible but very few can do it. Everything has to be perfect.

GhostRider62

if you do not have health issues, improper fluid and/or mineral intake can be the cause of peripheral swelling.

I think the best recent research on this topic was conducted by the US Army recently because they were killing recruits with excessive fluid intake, obviously they meant well. I am sorry I no longer have the very long study report link. Ultra running also had some good studies. Leadville 100 comes to mind. It is a complicated thing. Fluids. And we are all different. I need almost no fluids on my recumbent but quite a bit more on my upright.

Morimorimori

If it's not a typo and 220W is zone 2 for you, your FTP should be at around 400W.. That's professional athlete threshold, so I hardly can compare myself to you, we are in different worlds.. Mine is 250W, and I'm losing hope of reaching even 300W already..

samkl 

Can I ask, how much are you riding just generally?

ThermionicScott 

This is still blowing my mind a little... I'd noticed for years that my feet don't get hot spots nearly as soon in cooler weather. So I'd always attributed my foot-swelling to heat in the summer, and thought the swelling meant I wasn't drinking enough water!

I've been worried that I might have to give up SPD pedals for longer rides, since taking my shoes off every stop eats time. This gives me something to experiment with.

GhostRider62

Aside from being wrong, you are very dismissive and boreline rude.

I am trying to help you understand what you are doing wrong and what you can do to reach your challenging goal of sleeping 8 hours each night on PBP. When I did PBP in 54 hours and all my qualifying brevets in under 60% of the time, my FTP was 271 watts and I weighted 86-88 kg doing my SR. So, my functional threshold power is not much different than yours. What is very, very, very different are our lactate curves and the training that got me there.

You need to spend less time doing intensity work using glycolytic type 2 fibers and more steady work building your aerobic engine. Do some reading or get a coach. Here are a few links to get you in the right direction. GL.

https://simplifaster.com/articles/ho...le-is-vo2-max/
https://www.howardluksmd.com/zone-2-...r-less-injury/
https://www.inigosanmillan.com/physi...and-metabolism

GhostRider62

.....I don't pretend to know why other than fluid and sodium can be implicated......it is a weird thing. I swell very slightly on very long rides and my rando shoes are half a size larger to accommodate wool socks and the slight swelling. Fluid retention and elimination is crazy to my mind. On my recumbent, due to the angle and/or vibration, I know every single porta potty or public restroom within 20 miles of my house. It is not unusual for me to pee 6 times in the first 90 minutes before stabilizing whereas I rarely need to stop on an upright.

This is a bit over the top but I weigh myself before and after every ride of significance. I have gotten my hydration a little wrong recently by not drinking enough. I am mostly riding my upright bike and I sweat a lot more on that bike or probably more like the larger frontal area means more evaporation losses. In any case, too much or too little is a problem. (some need sodium and some don't......I do not know why). I also noticed that when I get fitter and thinner, I might need very little water in moderate temps (60-70F) but then at higher temps (90+), I sweat like a pig compared to when less fit. This is kind of why I keep an eye on my pre ride and post ride weight.

unterhausen

My feet swell right at 95 miles, no matter what. This is not really accompanied by visible swelling in my legs. The bike community as a whole thinks that you need form-fitting shoes, but I think that's overblown. Although I guess after 95 miles my shoes fit better. I go one (european) size bigger.