woodcraft

Yes, gotta have watts, but some think that putting out 300 watts to go 24 mph (for example) is an improvement

over putting out 250 watts to go 24 mph.


Disturbing video....

Campag4life

even more disturbing very recently...young sexy famous biker chick...time had run out....240 kph crash in a curve. a heart too wild to tame:

Nick Bain

I also had a pro-fit done by a guy who fits pro racers. There is a reason they let you come back for free if you have problems. They don't always get it right the first time even with the most perfect of science. They are still just a guide but they will get you most of the way there. I learned a few good things from it. Mainly don't have you stem to low early in training.

johngwheeler

Quick update to my OP. I moved my saddle forward 15mm so that it sits in the middle of the rails, where my fitter has originally placed it (I had moved it back to try and get better balance, and feel less cramped with the 90mm stem I originally had fitted on the bike).

It turns out my measurement of saddle set-back was inaccurate, and that it was previously only about 75mm, and is now 60mm.

With the 120mm stem (8 degree, flipped up) my reach is OK, but I do need to rotate my hips forward and flatten my back in order to get my torso long enough for comfort.

The 15mm saddle shift feels OK, am I am noticeably engaging my quads more. It's hard to tell whether my power output is the same or not, but my times on my standard commute have been slightly slower. However, I haven't ridden enough for statistical proof yet.

I haven't yet adjusted my saddle height (I estimate I should raise my saddle 5mm in the forward position), and this could affect my power output.

I've noticed that I am no longer pedalling heel-down, which I tended to do before.

One potential problem is that I now find I can't easily maintain a position in the widest part of the saddle to the rear and tend to shift forward. This could be a problem on longer rides. Previously, with the saddle further to the rear I found that pressure on the pedals would tend to push me slightly rearward and keep my position on the saddle.

I'll see how it goes!

Nick Bain

I would avoid monitoring your power metrics and just try to get comfortable first. Comfort is smooth and smooth is powerful.

bikeman68

This is a good question from a newbie or cyclist who hasn't been training/racing for long. The technique/setup concepts and practices used by the Rinault Team/Bernard Hinault AND Greg LeMond really shed great light on that back in the 1980s, The seat height part formula is no longer valid since it would throw too many cyclists off due to the great difference in pedal stack height of then vs now, BUT THE setback info is great, using the knee over pedal gauge, it had pro riders setback enough for the kneecap to fall a little behind the pedal axis at the 3 oclock position, I followed this as I got to be a stronger and more deleloping racer and it reall paid off since you get not only more pull back and up power, but more complete power phase muscle force using the quads and Glutes. So to give an idea on this, LeMond had exceptional leg proportions with longer fenur (thigh bone) than usual for men, so to allow for a position with knee slightly behind the pedal axis, he had custom bikes with a seat anges of 72 deg and change. For most of us, including many women cyclists you can do well with classic seatposts on a frame with 73 deg seat angles. So regards to your seat setback figure, maybe better to ignore the 10cm, since this could be about right for a tall rider, but no mention how high your seat is. So get careful measure of your KOPS but with helpers since you cannot get good accurate figure alone, also you need a real level work area , and the weighted string. For road racing or any competitive efforts at sustained pace, the setback that has the front of kneecap at or just a few mm behind the pedal axis at the 3 o clock position should be a good starting point. This really helps assist power when climbing. or on flat land pushing hard in big gears theres the benefit of helping balance your legs for a good cadence with more even power to reduce the "pedaling squares" effect as well as you less likley to slide forward on saddle when riding all out. What I found with excess setback was that I would start to feel need to pull forward 1cm or so if the setback is too much. FRom what I saw on pro riders bikes was that small range for the kneecap behind pedal axis going from 0mm (or the zero power position to about as much as 10mm. The riders with 0 setback seatposts with much more forward saddle may contradict this and I encourage you to ignore that, and remember this valuable info shared from a few books, one of them had input by Bernard Hinault called ROAD RACING technique&training by Claude Genzling

DaveSSS 

It's not too small. My cycling inseam is 83cm, and my saddle height is about 73cm. I ride the very smallest XS Cinelli superstar frame with a -17 stem and 15mm of spacer, to preserve resale value. With a -6 stem and no spacers, the bars would be a few millimeters higher, with no spacers. Any plus angled stem would raise the bars far too high. The stack on my frame is 509mm and reach is 375mm. Saddle to bar drop is about 10cm, or 4 inches.

Unless you have a seatpost with more than 25mm of setback, it's nearly impossible to move the saddle too far back. Seat post do tend to be a little steeper in the small sizes, but the total range is usually 73-75 degrees, with only the very smallest being 75.

colnago62

This a very old post.

rubiksoval

Or not. KOPS is antiquated and dead.

Find what works for you, not something made up four decades ago.

rubiksoval

Maybe if you sit bolt upright. Otherwise your knees and your ribcage are going to be very well acquainted, and that's no good for going fast.

DaveSSS 

I use a 10cm saddle to bar drop with a 110mm stem and have the saddle relatively far back. No problem, even in the drops. It's the saddle to bar drop that affects the knee to chest clearance far more than setback. If I were to go to an 11 or 12cm drop, that would get to be uncomfortable.

rubiksoval

The setback affects the saddle to bar drop because it closes the hip angle.

I have to run 165mm cranks and have my saddle quite far forward to get the appropriate bar height and reach (130mm stem), otherwise my knees hit my chest and I have to sit much more upright.

That's quite a common fit issue for people that want to get low and long.

HTupolev

Without knowing the rider, the type of fit they're aiming for, the seat tube angle, and other fitting factors like crank arm length, statements like this are basically meaningless.

Under typical road geometry and saddles, a lot of riders can't tolerate a saddle position like that unless they pair it with a very upright posture.

Chi_Z

you want the seat as forward as possible without hand pain

tomato coupe

Bike fitting is like figure skating, but instead of throwing out the high and low scores, you throw out the "all the way back" and "all the way forward" fits.

smashndash

Sounds like you need a small amount of nose-up tilt.

Generally speaking, moving the saddle forward puts more weight on the hands because you "fall forward" more. More weight on the hands = less weight on the butt. This is why tri/TT people have elbow rests. Too far forward, and you'll end up with numb hands pretty quickly. Way too far forward and you'll actually see a decrease in power because your CoG is in front of the pedals and engaging the glutes/hamstrings against the counterweight of your body becomes difficult.

The further back you go, generally, the easier it gets to engage the glutes and hamstrings, but the harder it is to get aero. You might see a decrease in cadence because of hip mobility issues. Also, if you go far back enough, your CoG will be behind the pedals and you won't be able to counterweight the pedals as much with your body. This will force you to either get out of the saddle or twist the bars under hard efforts (which are probably infrequent during commutes).

You might think "how do pros deal with their super forward positions without elbow rests?". A) they are light and B) they are strong. The more pedal force you put down (relative to the upstroke, which you should not be pulling hard on), the more weight is taken off the butt and hands and is transferred to the foot. The stronger you get, the lighter you get from the perspective of your hands and butt.

I would say for consistent efforts (like commuting) where aero is not important (ie not TTs), you should err towards being too far back. Like a beach cruiser but obviously not as extreme. Being too far forward can cause all sorts of issues. Being too far back just means you might not be able to dump 600 seated watts. As your CoG moves further away from the sweetspot, it becomes increasingly critical to keep a high cadence to maintain efficiency.

Branko D

I tried doing 20 min power tests moving the saddle forward and back by a centimeter or so. There was no real difference as best as I could measure.
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Saddle too forward made lifting hands off the bars a bit more discomforting and made me grip the bars more tightly which led to some numbness in fingers when trying to go hard for hard on the flat for longer periods. Saddle more to the rear felt ​​​​weird when trying to keep low and push out some power on the flat, although it felt very natural while climbing.

​​​​In the end I put the saddle as far forward where the handling was still fine and balance still felt right.
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