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What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.

Old 07-26-16, 08:03 AM
  #401  
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Old 07-26-16, 08:08 AM
  #402  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
I've never called eBikes motorcycles I called them motorbikes which is what they are. They are two-wheeled-vehicles with motors. Lightweight eBikes (250watt motors) produce considerably more power than than the 170watts that an average cyclist pedals. The legal eBike limit (in many places) of 750watts is closer to wattage of a professional cyclist. Real human power is not required accept to move the pedals around to trigger the assist-motor.

100%-human-powered bicycle touring is what is forum has always been about. Sorry you don't understand that and have to resort to mockery.

Sometimes people just want to believe what they believe, for it is THEIR belief. No matter what you say or how abruptly you put it, there are just some times when you can't change people's minds. And it's their right not to have to bend to what YOU say is "correct".

Can you just let it go?

Respect that other people see it other ways?

Please?
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Old 07-26-16, 09:30 AM
  #403  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
I've never called eBikes motorcycles I called them motorbikes which is what they are. They are two-wheeled-vehicles with motors. Lightweight eBikes (250watt motors) produce considerably more power than than the 170watts that an average cyclist pedals. The legal eBike limit (in many places) of 750watts is closer to wattage of a professional cyclist. Real human power is not required accept to move the pedals around to trigger the assist-motor.

100%-human-powered bicycle touring is what is forum has always been about. Sorry you don't understand that and have to resort to mockery.
I see you still don't understand how an EU legal E-Bike works... Very simply, You MUST PEDAL & PUT EFFORT into the pedaling as you will only receive a certain % of assist of what ever you put in... Yes, for a short while you can get 100% of the 350 watts of assist available, but then the battery runs down after 30KM but you want to go 100KM that day so now you still have to pedal the 70KM without assistance... Basically I use just enough assist to beat the headwind and make the ride fun, make the 6% hill into a 3% hill, make the 22% hill into a 11% hill, then I actually put in effort pedaling down the hill to keep the speed up so I can re-gen electricity to gain some power back so I will have more electric power stored for the next hill for the whole 100 Km day... I understand I am not doing the tour 100% of my own effort, it's 70% of my own effort, but an EU legal E-Bike is not even close to a moped let alone a motorbike, the implication being you don't actually have to pedal it type of bike...

Last edited by 350htrr; 07-26-16 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 07-26-16, 11:02 AM
  #404  
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
I agree. It's a little better than saying your ride across country would be on a "bike" and then taking your Goldwing.
Really?

Goldwing cross the country ride for 5,000KM at 500KM a day = about 6 Hrs in the saddle twisting the throttle for 10 days, zero pedaling involved...

E-Bikie ride across the country of 5,000 KM at 100KM a day = about 6 Hrs in the saddle actually pedaling 100% of the time with about an average of 30% assistance added to the pedaling effort for 50 days...


Riding a regular bike cross country for 5,000KM at 100KM a day = about 6 Hrs in the saddle pedaling all the way for 50 days but putting in 100% of the effort...

Which is closer, more alike?

Last edited by 350htrr; 07-26-16 at 11:11 AM. Reason: add stuff
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Old 07-26-16, 11:33 AM
  #405  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
I see you still don't understand how an EU legal E-Bike works
Yes I do. Move pedals you go.

Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
you can get 100% of the 350 watts of assist available
After an hour I'd just pop in a new battery. Duh!
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Old 07-26-16, 12:01 PM
  #406  
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post
Can you just let it go?
Sure. I'm done with this thread. Bye.
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Old 07-26-16, 02:25 PM
  #407  
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Ding, ding, ding... I guess we are on round three...

I don't have any problem with people saying 100% pedal only for bicycle touring. It's people coming up with a bunch of total BS about E.U legal E-Bikes being motor bikes and you don't have to pedal them just "pretend" pedal... Wrong, 100% wrong... Pretty simple, Now the N American E-Bikes laws, are... yea, they are basically mopeds and are even motorbikes in the real sense, that you don't have to pedal some of them maybe even most of them... IMO Although I was also told I was mistaken in my understanding of the N American laws on E-Bikes in the E-Bike forum as they are not considered mopeds but bicycles in the eyes of the law, so thus were just bicycles...

And that is why I think EU legal E-Bike are a + to bicycle touring, similar enough to fit in, but are also different enough for Shure, thus one must always say if one is riding an E-Assist bike for people to understand/differentiate the tour setting... Just like there IS a big enough difference in CC Touring/supported touring compared to riding your bike and carrying everything with you and stealth camping everywhere, one must say CC touring or supported touring but no need to say anything when doing it all yourself... IMO It's UNDERSTOOD what you did.

Last edited by 350htrr; 07-26-16 at 07:37 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-26-16, 08:07 PM
  #408  
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okay. look like we've decided that a little assist is okay,
and that it's really the same thing, and it doesn't matter
what you tour on so long as it mostly looks like a bike
and you have to do most of the pedaling. that's cool.

here's a question......me and my arkansas hillbilly
hunting buddies find we need a little help getting the
old bike going, especially in the mornings as we're
often (read always) super hungover. those folding
swiss army mountain bikes look awesome, but
they sure is heavy.

being clever dudes, we've decided to modify our bikes!
we took the wee tiny gasoline motors off our old
chainsaws and bolted 'em to the seattube water bottle
mounts, (of course we still have the downtube cage
to hold our beers!) and mashed together this
really cool pulley-chain-cog device that can transmit
power to the drivetrain.

being extra clever, we've even written a smart phone
app to control the thing. there's no throttle, just a
sensor duct-taped to the crankarm. the app is set
to provide a maximum of 30% assist. works just
like an e-bike!

so, now we've got a g-bike (or p-bike in europe)
that requires pedalling to move forward, and
provides maximum 30% assist, and where the
wee tiny motor produces maximum 125 watts.
(can be modified in the app to meet local laws)

we can tour on it! it's a motor assist BICYCLE!
will the riders be welcome here? can we ride
the katy or anywhere else assist bikes are
allowed?

will we be browbeaten for starting threads about
how to clean a carberator on tour, where to get
specific octane gas, what's the best single stroke
engine oil, and whether we make our own
gas-oil mix. will the g-bike riders look down on
the a-bike (alcohol powered assist) riders?

we'll also start some new threads about drilling
out the wee tiny muffler (if there even is one)
cause "loud pipes save lives", and we hate
that our g-assist-BICYCLES sound like a swarm
of vespas.
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Old 07-26-16, 08:37 PM
  #409  
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Really, that's it. Comparing an imaginary fairytale to the real story of a guy who lost a third of his heart muscle and finds that, by using an e assist he can still ride with his friends?

Or my friends story of trying to live more car free while dealing with rheumatoid arthritis.

Those are the real people who get dissed when we turn conversations like this into name calling (lazy, cheaters) and hurtful jokes.

What poses more of a threat to a discussion forum.. hypothetical hillbilly stories or the perception of rude and insensitive outlooks towards others? I think the focus is on the wrong problem because it says something about our community when that stuff goes unchallenged.

Personally, I don't want to be associated with mean spirited people who worry more about their sacred cow definition of a bicycle than real people's problems.

Can you imagine being face to face with those people who have problems and calling them lazy or cheaters or comparing their options to a hypothetical story.. it would be embarrassing.. both to the speaker and the people in their group. This forum is that group.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-26-16 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 07-26-16, 08:47 PM
  #410  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
okay. look like we've decided that a little assist is okay,
and that it's really the same thing, and it doesn't matter
what you tour on so long as it mostly looks like a bike
and you have to do most of the pedaling. that's cool.

here's a question......me and my arkansas hillbilly
hunting buddies find we need a little help getting the
old bike going, especially in the mornings as we're
often (read always) super hungover. those folding
swiss army mountain bikes look awesome, but
they sure is heavy.

being clever dudes, we've decided to modify our bikes!
we took the wee tiny gasoline motors off our old
chainsaws and bolted 'em to the seattube water bottle
mounts, (of course we still have the downtube cage
to hold our beers!) and mashed together this
really cool pulley-chain-cog device that can transmit
power to the drivetrain.

being extra clever, we've even written a smart phone
app to control the thing. there's no throttle, just a
sensor duct-taped to the crankarm. the app is set
to provide a maximum of 30% assist. works just
like an e-bike!

so, now we've got a g-bike (or p-bike in europe)
that requires pedalling to move forward, and
provides maximum 30% assist, and where the
wee tiny motor produces maximum 125 watts.
(can be modified in the app to meet local laws)

we can tour on it! it's a motor assist BICYCLE!
will the riders be welcome here? can we ride
the katy or anywhere else assist bikes are
allowed?

will we be browbeaten for starting threads about
how to clean a carberator on tour, where to get
specific octane gas, what's the best single stroke
engine oil, and whether we make our own
gas-oil mix. will the g-bike riders look down on
the a-bike (alcohol powered assist) riders?

we'll also start some new threads about drilling
out the wee tiny muffler (if there even is one)
cause "loud pipes save lives", and we hate
that our g-assist-BICYCLES sound like a swarm
of vespas.
And, Thus the slippery slope, NeilGunton wants to avoid...
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Old 07-26-16, 08:54 PM
  #411  
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What slippery slope?

The one where people have to make up ridiculous stories to prop up a non issue? Any examples of real e bike stories that confused a bike forum?

Because I think folding bikes should be banned lest aliens transport them in their ships and use them to abduct forum members.
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Old 07-26-16, 09:04 PM
  #412  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Really, that's it. Comparing an imaginary fairytale to the real story....
imaginary fairytales? a decade ago all this
super whiz-bang high-tech gadgetry was
imaginary, futuristic fairytales. what? tour
on an electric bike? you must think you're
buck rogers!

if the technology exists, it can and will be
built. wee tiny gas engines, sensors, wifi
and smart phones. they're all here now.
build the thing? easy-peasy.

golly, you'd have scoffed a couple years
ago if i predicted you could buy a drone
at a hobby shop. and now? there's folks
fitting them with guns and cameras, and
at least one guy mounted a flame thrower
on his. and you say a g-bike is imaginary.

and why "drunk arkansas hillbilly hunters"?
well, them's the folk we're taught to hate
by the media, but in order to be inclusive,
we have to include them and their wacky
inventions. gotta be fair.
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Old 07-26-16, 09:07 PM
  #413  
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It's like you missed the whole point and kept on going. You can't fix what you can't see.
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Old 07-26-16, 09:24 PM
  #414  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
What slippery slope?

The one where people have to make up ridiculous stories to prop up a non issue? Any examples of real e bike stories that confused a bike forum?

Because I think folding bikes should be banned lest aliens transport them in their ships and use them to abduct forum members.
Yes, yes, It's a whacky made up story, but the point is real... It doesn't mean exclusion is the right policy tho...

Dealing with the new technology will be a problem it seems...
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Old 07-26-16, 09:25 PM
  #415  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
It's like you missed the whole point and kept on going. You can't fix what you can't see.
you mean this part?

Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Can you imagine being face to face with those people who have problems and calling them lazy or cheaters or comparing their options to a hypothetical story
now you're doing what someone else called the "save the children" approach.
that i'm being "uncaring" and "insensative." not at all. i'm not calling anyone lazy or a cheater.

my point is that we must be inclusive. that means we have to imagine the folks we'd least
like to associate with and apply our standards to them. we're not allowed to question
anyone using e-assist (or g-assist or whatever) so what if that dude is drunk? maybe he
has other problems. (actually, i think alcoholism is considered a disability in some cases,
so it's not that imaginary.)

but all this insensativeness just deflects from the discussion. what is a bicycle?
if you allow the e-assist, then the g/p-assist will be allowed, and eventually
the (currently imaginary nuclear fusion) nf-assist, but will probably get some
pushback from the wifi-transmitted-e-assist crowd.
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Old 07-26-16, 09:30 PM
  #416  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Yes, yes, It's a whacky made up story, but the point is real... It doesn't mean exclusion is the right policy tho...

Dealing with the new technology will be a problem it seems...
Only for people who fear technology and it seems everyone here is using a computer and not mailing it all into home office. Remember the troubles dealing with y2k. How did we survive?
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Old 07-26-16, 09:33 PM
  #417  
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Went for a ride on bike path yesterday & I noticed the "No Motorized Vehicles" sign. OTOH there's also signs prohibiting riding at night, both ignored w/no enforcement. On local bike path it's becoming more common to see e-bikers (generally commuters); so far all of the e-bikers have been polite & I've had no problems sharing path.
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Old 07-26-16, 09:53 PM
  #418  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
you mean this part?



now you're doing what someone else called the "save the children" approach.
that i'm being "uncaring" and "insensative." not at all. i'm not calling anyone lazy or a cheater.
Why is it "save the children" to point out that real people have posted real stories about real issues and that it's plain rude to suggest that they are in the same league as a cartoonish made up fairytale. It's like comparing some bozo story to that of someone who has cancer and saying they are the same theoretically. Who does that? You did not call people lazy or cheaters but others did in the same, dismissive way. Why is it wrong to understand what it would feel like if the shoe was on the other foot?

I know this is the internet and people act like it is an imaginary world where nothing really matters but I try to conduct myself online in exactly the same way I do IRL.

In my social circle we take the piss out of each other ruthlessly, to coin an English phrase; but that doesn't extend to actual people who have real problems. That would turn manly good fun into embarrassment. And the people I know IRL, and who have shared their stories here online seem to actually need assistance.

I'm always amazed when people suggest it's somehow wrong to act decent towards others.

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Old 07-27-16, 02:28 AM
  #419  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Why is it "save the children" to point out that real people have posted real stories about real issues and that it's plain rude to suggest that they are in the same league as a cartoonish made up fairytale. It's like comparing some bozo story to that of someone who has cancer and saying they are the same theoretically. Who does that? You did not call people lazy or cheaters but others did in the same, dismissive way. Why is it wrong to understand what it would feel like if the shoe was on the other foot?

I know this is the internet and people act like it is an imaginary world where nothing really matters but I try to conduct myself online in exactly the same way I do IRL.

In my social circle we take the piss out of each other ruthlessly, to coin an English phrase; but that doesn't extend to actual people who have real problems. That would turn manly good fun into embarrassment. And the people I know IRL, and who have shared their stories here online seem to actually need assistance.

I'm always amazed when people suggest it's somehow wrong to act decent towards others.



This merely empathises a point that I've already made. What you are dealing with is not a nit-picking and pointless argument that in reality means little or nothing about the correct nomenclature when speaking about E-assist bikes. What you are dealing with is much more basic.......that of attitudes and how people view their fellow-humans.
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Old 07-27-16, 02:48 AM
  #420  
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Originally Posted by onbike 1939 View Post
This merely empathises a point that I've already made. What you are dealing with is not a nit-picking and pointless argument that in reality means little or nothing about the correct nomenclature when speaking about E-assist bikes. What you are dealing with is much more basic.......that of attitudes and how people view their fellow-humans.
Glad you brought this up onbike.

I started a thread here which recounted an encounter with a couple of young fit and healthy people on Ebikes and how I was shocked that young fit and healthy people would choose Ebikes rather than bicycles to engage in touring. I was accused of 'having nothing better to do' than criticise others, it was suggested that I would be sneering at Ebikers and I was described as 'judgemental' on this thread by someone who a couple of posts later was judging his fellow workers for their attachment to commuting by automobile.

Maybe it's because I'm older and grey that they're picking on me.
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Old 07-27-16, 03:09 AM
  #421  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
Glad you brought this up onbike.

I started a thread here which recounted an encounter with a couple of young fit and healthy people on Ebikes and how I was shocked that young fit and healthy people would choose Ebikes rather than bicycles to engage in touring. I was accused of 'having nothing better to do' than criticise others, it was suggested that I would be sneering at Ebikers and I was described as 'judgemental' on this thread by someone who a couple of posts later was judging his fellow workers for their attachment to commuting by automobile.

Maybe it's because I'm older and grey that they're picking on me.


No....no....no...you shouldn't think this for a moment.

It's because you're a horrible person and your decrepit state and grey hair has nothing to do with it.....honestly. I think that you do tend to be too hard on yourself.
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Old 07-27-16, 03:50 AM
  #422  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Why is it "save the children" ......
why? 'cause i'm not speaking to "the children." i'm speaking to you.
we're discussing (i thought) what is and is not a bicycle.

that fact that some people are unable (or only in a limited way) to ride
a bicycle doesn't mean that some other vehicle can or should be
called a bicycle to make them feel included.

i see quite a few hand-cranked bikes ridden by folks that have had landmine
accidents. those are bicycles. add a motor and they are not bicycles.
they are either motorcycles or motor-assist vehicles or whatever, but
they aren't bicycles.

it's not mean-spirited to accept reality. i'm certainly not going to go
up to the hand-crank bike fellow and say "you're doing it wrong"
because webster's say a bike is pedalled with your feet.

a discussion on a bicycling forum about what indeed constitutes a
bicycle should be possible without implying (how i read it anyway)
that a traditionalist is a mean, heartless so-and-so.

the dude with the heart problem is riding an e-assist bike. that's super
awesome! (no sarcasm, it's freaking amazing!!). it's just not a bicycle,
and we really don't need to pretend otherwise just to feel good about
our celebration of diversity.

i'm not picking on him, i'm not telling him he's a loser, i'm not saying
he should not be posting on the touring forum. i'm not talking to him.
i'm discussing with you the definition of bicycle.

now about those fantastical fairytales....welcome to the world of tomorrow!

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Old 07-27-16, 04:32 AM
  #423  
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some enlightened jurisdictions are more inclusive than others:

Motorized Bicycles: Legal In Nebraska? State Law Says Technically Yes

new form of transportation is starting to become pretty popular in the area, especially for those looking for an easier bike ride."You pedal out until you just can't pedal anymore, then you can start up the motor and ride i

There was someone that zoomed passed me and you hear like 'Eeeeeerrrrrr', you know like the little gas powered motor I guess is what's on a lot of them. And, I don't know, he wasn't peddling and I was so he was winning

by state law, the bikes are legal."It can have no more than 50 cc's, two horse power and can't go any more than 30 miles an hour. But it's afforded the same legalities as a bicycle

They are allowed on the trails and they are street legal," said Gustafson.Another reason why the bikes are legal on and off the streets, are because of the pedals. State law said once the pedals are taken off the bike would be considered a motorcycle and

Motorized Bicycles: Legal In Nebraska? State Law Says Technically Yes | KPTM


****me personally, i'd prefer to burn coal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motori...-Fahrrad_2.jpg

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Old 07-27-16, 08:36 AM
  #424  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
why? 'cause i'm not speaking to "the children." i'm speaking to you.
we're discussing (i thought) what is and is not a bicycle.

that fact that some people are unable (or only in a limited way) to ride
a bicycle doesn't mean that some other vehicle can or should be
called a bicycle to make them feel included.

i see quite a few hand-cranked bikes ridden by folks that have had landmine
accidents. those are bicycles. add a motor and they are not bicycles.
they are either motorcycles or motor-assist vehicles or whatever, but
they aren't bicycles.

it's not mean-spirited to accept reality. i'm certainly not going to go
up to the hand-crank bike fellow and say "you're doing it wrong"
because webster's say a bike is pedalled with your feet.

a discussion on a bicycling forum about what indeed constitutes a
bicycle should be possible without implying (how i read it anyway)
that a traditionalist is a mean, heartless so-and-so.

the dude with the heart problem is riding an e-assist bike. that's super
awesome! (no sarcasm, it's freaking amazing!!). it's just not a bicycle,
and we really don't need to pretend otherwise just to feel good about
our celebration of diversity.

i'm not picking on him, i'm not telling him he's a loser, i'm not saying
he should not be posting on the touring forum. i'm not talking to him.
i'm discussing with you the definition of bicycle.

now about those fantastical fairytales....welcome to the world of tomorrow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOkR8Ui42x8
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This is not a thread about debating whether e bikes are bikes. It is about whether threads related to touring that use an e bike but relate to the touring side should be allowed here and what they might add to the global conversation. The answer appears to be yes, according to the mods, and it allows some people to participate and share their unique stories.

If anyone has a "save the children" mentality, in the correct usage of the phrase, it would be those who want to eliminate all conversation because they feel members can't or won't be able to differentiate between appropriate and inappropriate threads and that no mechanism exists from a moderation POV to deal with those issues.

Threads start here all the time. Some get talked about, some get moved or moderated, some die a natural death because they don't appeal to anyone's touring experiences. I'm adult enough to get that, and I have faith that most other members are too, so I see no need to keep threads out to protect myself from thinking critically.

The debate about whether ebikes are bikes should perhaps be brought up to Bike Forums directly though I suspect it might be a case of the horse out the gate already.

  • BF appears to be a bike forum,


  • has an e bike sub forum,


  • this thread is in a bike touring subforum


  • and at least two mods have posted into it (by my count) to correct someone who was saying the thread didn't belong and/or arguing e bikes weren't bikes by posting random pics of motor bikes ripped off the net.

The fact that you are using a pic of a gas powered bike to argue against e bikes doesn't help your cause either. You can try to find a more appropriate pic but then I would just refer you to the bulleted points above.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 07-27-16 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 07-27-16, 08:49 AM
  #425  
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Originally Posted by Caretaker View Post
Glad you brought this up onbike.

I started a thread here which recounted an encounter with a couple of young fit and healthy people on Ebikes and how I was shocked that young fit and healthy people would choose Ebikes rather than bicycles to engage in touring. I was accused of 'having nothing better to do' than criticise others, it was suggested that I would be sneering at Ebikers and I was described as 'judgemental' on this thread by someone who a couple of posts later was judging his fellow workers for their attachment to commuting by automobile.

Maybe it's because I'm older and grey that they're picking on me.
Maybe it's because you saw some strangers doing their own thing and not hurting anybody but you felt the need to start a thread on a bicycle touring forum to see if anyone else wanted to participate in judging them the way you did. Perhaps some people wondered what the relevance was to bicycle touring and whether it belonged here (sound familiar). That you are older and grey might have just made some wonder why you didn't know better. Perhaps older is equated to more mature and mature people have issues with gossiping about strangers? Perhaps, just because you ride a bicycle doesn't make the rest of the behavior ok.

IDK, just some alternative theories.
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