Happy Feet

Thanks for the links. Cool bike idea and I enjoyed the video.

350htrr

The E-Assist we have is a BionX 350 watt and it helps my wife go on tours because she can pick what ever level of assist she wants/thinks she needs, and she certainly would NOT be touring on a "real" bicycle, it's a non starter...

Level 1; 35% added onto her pedaling effort. Distance assist would last about 120Km.
Level 2; 75% added onto her pedaling effort. Distance assist would last about 90Km.
Level 3; 150% added onto her pedaling effort. Distance assist would last about 60Km.
Level 4; 300% added onto her pedaling effort. Distance assist would last about 30Km...

Thus when she is on level ground she pedals 100% under her own power, with some headwind she would use level 1.

Then what ever level she "needs" to help get up whatever hill she needs to climb, depending on steepness and or length... There is no set formula other than the more you pedal the faster/farther you will get...

I need to be on level 4 to go from 21Km/Hr to 32Km/Hr with my set up... So If you want to increase your speed by 50% you would need to be on at least level 3 on flat roads and level 4 on hills all the way. IMO

Happy Feet

Interesting.
I can see from an impairment angle the assist would be help with the hills (heavier crank effort) but from an able bodied perspective I see the advantage being extending daily range. I suppose double headed advances in battery storage capacity and recharging efficiency/speed might make the latter more feasible.

350htrr

See, there's the rub... Once you increase the speed potential, which is easily doable today, and the distance capable per charge also easily doable (there are systems out there that can do 50MPH and go something like 100 miles at 28 MPH and you never have to pedal with one charge) you just made the EU legal E-Assist "bicycle" into a moped/motor bike/E-Bike that some people that were on here earlier absolutely hated, and rightfully so... JMO

Happy Feet

Why rightly so hate a mode of transportation that goes 50 mph when almost everyone here will jump in a car that goes 100mph for convenience whenever they want? That sort of thinking is weird to me. It's based on personal ideals and even those change depending on the persons momentary needs.

And, I'm pretty sure I'm just exploring the potential to go further while pedaling with the same effort I would use on a conventional bike. Certainly not moped territory. It would seem to be exactly the same sweat equity either way. The speed thing is an interesting issue though as, once you go fast enough you would be restricted from certain bicycle pathes (which I agree with).

It's just an idea. The interplay between travel goals and time available is probably, next to generally just being able to ride a bike, the biggest concern/challenge people have with bicycle tours. Every route I look at comes down to that simple equation.

Squeezebox

I saw a woman on a $4K Ebike in the park a while ago. Her husband was in good shape but not her. If you can afford it a nice way to ride together.

Happy Feet

Imagine if the guy on the video in post 500 came to this forum beforehand asking opinions on his mode of touring.
Yet, there he is, doing a TED talk...

350htrr

And there is the slippery slope Neil was talking about, Who decides, where does E-assist stop, and moped territory begins...? Some people say absolutely no motor-assist, some people say EU legal E-assist is OK, some people say N American legal E-Assist is OK, some people in N America say 5,000 watts E-bike is OK because it's for off road use, and you can switch it to a legal E-Assist level of 750 watts and you should be able to ride that bike on non-motorized vehicles allowed trails... Thus we have this thread, pages and pages of opinions... I'm with the EU legal E-Assist bike rules myself and no further...

350htrr

I would suspect he would be more welcome than any EU legal E-Bike tourer out there... Let alone an E-Bike tourrer that can go 50 MPH, even if he did pedal... JMO

Happy Feet

Don't know. My sense is there are those people who dream and those who play armchair quarterback. The dreamers often have to walk in the wilderness a bit and face criticism but then, afterwards, they are often called visionaries instead. Not claiming any of that for myself of course, just aware that ideas aren't always welcomed with open arms which doesn't necessarily make them wrong. Talking about how e bikes can/could be used in tours seems to fit into an e bike touring thread.

I come here to explore ideas, not seek permission. My wife is my only gate keeper. If I'm not breaking the law or hurting anyone (or advocating it) who cares how I spend my vacation?

That's really part of the emotional/social aspect of this discussion; why people feel the need to go out of their way to say they disagree with what someone else is doing when no harm is being done. I get that people may not like it or agree with stuff, I don't like Blue Cheese, but I don't go out of my way telling people they are wrong for liking it.

I do appreciate your input because until now I have never really considered how e bikes could be flexed towards touring and am not a very tech nerdy kinda of guy for the details. I just ride stuff.

350htrr

You can go any way you like, but the slippery slope starts with a little bitty assist, than a bit more assist, and now you say it's OK to go 50 MPH as long as you pedal as hard as before without assist... Good for you, but as far as most people would be concerned, I suspect a bicycle that does 50MPH is not even close to a "real bicycle" in most peoples mind, at least not in my mind and I'm all for a little bit of assist... It's just a matter of the degree/amount of assist and speed, that becomes problematic after a certain amount, thus in my book the EU legal amount is far enough "bending of the rules" ...

Happy Feet

Most people is an interesting term. Most people I talk to about my bike tour IRL could care less about my bike. If I said I was using e assist they probably still wouldn't care. All they hear is "riding a bike this far for this long" and say Wow, I wouldn't/couldn't do that. Most people here really represent very few people over all.

What slippery slope? To what? To where? That's a term that really means nothing if there is no where something is sliding towards. Is the slippery slope that people will explore the use of e assist on bicycles? Already happening all over the world - any harm so far? That it's ok in one application but not in another? What is the negative aspect being avoided by staying away from a slippery slope? Thought? Discussion? Exploration of ideas?

If people are afraid that advances in e bike technology will somehow threaten their way of bike touring I suggest they themselves, have a weak grasp on their own commitments.

To me,the slippery slope is trying to shut down ideas before they begin for fear of some unknown which is really nothing more than a vague fear of disrupting some peoples image of what bike touring should be. They are welcome to that opinion but when you limit discussion based on that you effectively shut down innovation. Who does that serve?

I thought the big objection was that conventional bikes required people to do their own pedaling, to exert effort. If someone exerts the same effort in both cases that sort of nullifies that argument.

350htrr

Well, I'm going to bow-out, E-Bike discussion's should be done in the E-Bike forum, Not in the touring forum... As the slippery slope is slippery indeed.

Happy Feet

Well ok, no hard feelings. Sorry to see you go as you provided some pretty good information based on practical experience throughout. We haven't really slipped anywhere other than discussing a few novel ideas in a discussion format

loky1179

Thanks for posting this! I saw a similar "bike" on my commute home last week, riding on the bike trail. I was almost ready to tell him to get his motorcycle off the bike trail, then I remembered your post. Sure enough, when I got closer, I saw the pedals, and noticed the "bike" was not making any noise. No doubt it was a "Legal E-bike".

He was not pedaling it, but I'm sure I just caught him during one of the rare moments when he was using "throttle only".

Happy Feet

Help me out Loky, I can't see how what you've written has anything to do with touring at all. I must be wrong because it feels like you just dredged up this thread to make fun of a stranger you saw on a commute?

loky1179

It wasn't until I saw Prathmann's photo that I realized such a creature existed. When I actually saw one on the bike trail a week later, it became apparent some folks use these.

What can this bring to touring? Well, my Trek 520 is the most comfortable bike I've ever ridden, but I imagine the bike in the picture is a heck of a lot more comfortable. So e-bikes can bring that to touring.

350htrr

See, there, that is what I agree with for slippery slope, I am all for touring on an E-Assist bike but... Really, that is NOT AN E-ASSIST BIKE, THAT IS A MOPED, pure and simple, people just do not pedal those things... JMO

cb400bill

Actually, that thing is a scooter as there are no pedals. Moped is a combination of motor and pedal.

loky1179

The one I saw looked just like that, but it most assuredly had pedals. Before reading this thread, I might have been judgmental, but now I see things in a different light. The "scooter" had pedals - with the widest Q factor I've ever seen. No doubt some folks with rare physical abnormalities require such a wide Q factor to be able to pedal without pain. I can't fathom any other reason to put pedals on such a machine. Unless it was to conform with some "legal" definition of an Ebike. But I'm not that cynical. I don't believe anyone would do that!

Happy Feet

I don't see why people care so much about what other people are riding. But if it helps, a young man down the street is riding a bike with 700c rear and 26" front wheels. He says it makes him go faster because he's always going downhill. Not really relevant but I saw it on my commute and thought I'd mention it in a touring forum.

What others see as a slippery slope I see as an acknowledgement that some on the forum seem incapable of discussing subjects, or even allowing others to discuss, that do not conform to their very narrow, black and white definition of the way things ought to be. If they don't do it, it must be wrong, and should not be discussed. If it is, they will post inane stuff to muddy the discussion for everyone else.

Of course, those people exist but the real question is whether we allow them to define discussion here ie. removing the slippery slope. We could take all the sharp and pointy subjects away so no one feels the need to argue and potentially poke their own an eye out but I for one feel that just dumbs down the forum for the rest who are mature enough to handle big boy/girl topics.

Maybe I'm wrong and expect too much out of people who can manually pedal their own bicycles without assistance? Perhaps we do need a parent to clear away all the hazardous subjects and put training wheels on our discussions so they don't fall over. Reminds me of M Night Shyamalan's "The Village".

prathmann

It does technically accept pedals - they install under the little silver-colored thing on the side and allow it to be pedaled. Not that any reasonable user of it would ever do that except under dire circumstances.

Happy Feet

Oh no, by all means. We all realize this is the very sort of e-bike being discussed by the people in this thread who have shared their experiences so far. The fact that someone saw one parked outside their building and you saw one while commuting proves it. Don't let me get in the way of your cleverly disguised (nudge nudge wink wink) support for them. No one could ever think you just dredged up the thread in hopes that someone else would appreciate looking down on a complete stranger riding a scooter as much as you do.

Snore...

Fwiw, the image has nothing to do with e bikes and touring and was just a knock at how e-bikes are legally classified. The day you see someone touring on one of those, and not just commuting around town or parking, may be when it is.