russellnyg745

unfortunately im not allowed to post pictures untill aftetr i have made 10 posts but here is some information. i got a bike for free off the side of the road. its an old 3 speed. has some pretty bad surface rust but has a few markings. first the seat tube decal says "classic" and "made in west germany" the head tube says "europe". the rear fender on the bike appears to have what i think is a frnch flag and it says "Ft Monroe". any inormation would be awesome. sorry i cant post pictures yet. ive spent hours online looking for information and havent fond much. thanks!

machinist42

russellnyg745

Thank You!

Peroni

It looks too far gone to me, the frame is rusted and rotted at the forks and headset, it would be dangerous to ride. If the frame broke apart at the forks and handlebar, you could be injured.

I can guess what the bicycle was whenever it was new, it's an inexpensive generic import. I would guess 1960s, but where was sold, a small town general store, maybe, or from the J.C. Whitney catalog.
The reason why you can't find any information is because it has no collector value or interest, and not many were likely to have been imported, the economics wouldn't add up for very long, if at all.

I'm just guessing, but I don't think it has any value, other than a small amount of scrap metal, and it isn't worth restoring, even if it could be restored.

oneclick 

It almost certainly has a Sachs three-speed hub, if it is the 1950s era Torpedo with the red shifter THAT would be worth saving. Can we see a close-up of the shifter?

Peroni

I was afraid the tires might hold air long enough to get on it and ride 100 yards. The neck looks like it could break off and it would be a matter of luck from there.

I don't know much about three speed hubs, but they wouldn't tool up to make the hub in house, I don't guess.
I was looking for something to date the age of it, like the Mylar branding tape stickers, more lettering is on the frame, but maybe it isn't readable.

I just don't know enough to ID the crank, or rear brake caliper, or the rims, the rims look galvanized like a nail, and not rusted much.

thumpism 

One place named Fort Monroe is a former military installation, now a National Monument, in Hampton, Virginia at the edge of Hampton Roads but there may be no connection with that sticker.

russellnyg745

one in virginia and my wife found that there was one in west germany that is no longer there.

russellnyg745

Tried posting more pictures but i still cant. Tried to upload them picture assistance again please? These are of the brake calipers, hub and shifter. Thanks!

juvela

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your member page states you have not as yet created a member photo album

you can create a member photo album without having to have made ten posts


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russellnyg745

just looked. The photos are there in an album under my account.

juvela

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thank you for the response



must be a glitch somewhere

perhaps we need the assistance of a moderator...

@cb400bill

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identification -

sometimes on these german contract builds frame details can provide helpful clues as to the actual manufacturer...

cycle looks to be a product of Panther Fahrradwerke AG

the firm's best known brand name is Jaguar
if you look closely at the downtube transfers you may be able to make out this name

the subject bicycle appears to date from the mid-1960's

this blue machine is a Jaguar from about the same time:




[the odd looking shifter and large odometer/speedometer are owner mounted bits]

frame -

note that lugs, fork crown, ESGE bridges, fork crown cap, seat stay treatment & soft-edged black accent painting on the head are identical

fittings -

same: headset, chainset with arrow pattern chainwheel, brake set, pedals, stem/bar set, mudguards

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thumpism mentioned that there was at one time a Fort Monroe facility located in Germany. one possibility might be that the bicycle was originally purchased by a U.S. service member stationed there who got it in the PX.

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big thank you to member machinist42 for the picture assistance

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see no reason why cycle could not be refurbished and put into good operating & roadworthy condition

it is complete, all original and without damage;
would not be surprised if even the tyres are original, perhaps a brand such as Continental...

if you were to give the frame a bath in oxalic acid the original colour would reappear

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cb400bill

When I look at your account this is what I see. No album.

machinist42

(I'm not a mod, but did play a rocker in a movie once!)













Link to OP's album.

("There is no German word for "giggles."" - Werner Herzog said never.)

rustystrings61 

My first road bike was a very similar frame built as a 10-speed. I would give the bike an oxalic acid or Evapo-Rust bath. Those are thick walled tubes and should be fine.

It’s a good utility 3-speed and worth saving just for that.

juvela

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the letter P on the Sachs Torpedo hub would indicate a year of 1972

with new photos we can see cycle began life in a gold livery

thanks again for the picture help machinist42

do you still have your black leathers with chains?


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russellnyg745

Well it looks like its not worth much in its current state. So im going to try to bring her back to life. Make it rideable again. Will be a fun project regardless how much it costs.

thumpism 

Clean it up and make it rideable. Save the big expenditure for a different machine. If you bring this one back there will undoubtedly be more of them later.

jayroorbach

the circular red white and blue emblem was the garrison patch at Fort Monroe. My guess is the bike belonged to someone stationed there who registered it.

juvela

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Hello Russ,

despite the poor appearance at first glance it has three big plusses going for it:

a) it is complete

b) it is all original - has not been mucked about with

c) from all which can be seen in posted photos there is no damage

looks like you are moving right along with it from latest pictures

if you have any questions there are certainly no shortage of experts here on the forum...

request: curious regarding the chainset with the arrows pattern chainwheel. when you disassemble this please let us know if you should find any marking on the backside of the crankarms or chainwheel, or any marking in the centre section of the bottom bracket spindle

there have been arrows pattern chainwheels going back at least as far as the 1930's...and likely further

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jayroorbach escrivinated -

"the circular red white and blue emblem was the garrison patch at Fort Monroe. My guess is the bike belonged to someone stationed there who registered it."

thanks so much for this excellent information

since we know the base was deactivated in 2011 and the bicycle was manufactured in 1972 there is plenty of time for this to have taken place
@thumpism mentioned a second Fort Monroe located in Germany, also no longer an active military facility

tried without success to search for this second Fort Monroe


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russellnyg745

Well every thing has come apart pretty pain free EXCEPT the damn cranks. Any pointers on getting the pins off? Also. Evapo rust seems to be the best product out there. Any tips on giving the parts a bath? I figured id put everything in some huge garbage bags with the evaporust. Put it in a kiddy pool and leaving it out in the sun. The smaller parts can be put in a small bin. Thoughts? Also thanks for all the help yall! Pretty excited to bring this back to life. Hopefully i can find more out there that needs help. Another concern is the hub/shifter operation. While the hub did "shift" the shifter wouldnt let it stay in gear. You had to hold the lever in a certain position to stay in gear. Once again thank you!

juvela

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excellent to read you are moving forward with the bicycle

several producers offer purpose made tools for working on crank cotters

perhaps the best known of these is the Park tool




a perfectly workable substitute can be created with a C-clamp -



no pounding, this can damage bearing races

if you do break off the stud of a pin and need to pound with a punch to get it out the head of the crank arm needs to be supported against something solid such an an anvil, place a socket between the crank arm head and the anvil, creating room for the pin to drop

this technique protects the bearing races from damage

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https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cotters.html

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russellnyg745

I have tried the socket and vise method. They wont go. I may need to use a bit of heat. While the pin is under pressure. Thats my thought any ways

juvela

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alignment is quite important when pressing them out

if things are off a bit and you are not pressing in a straight line with the axis of the pin you can bend the stud

a bent stud complicates removal efforts

have probably disassembled hundreds of cottered chainsets in over fifty year of cycle work; have never had to resort to heat once


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you will want to use oxalic acid for derustment of frame and fork

it is amazing how much of the original gold colour will reappear

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here is some information on the manufacturer in case you are interested -

​​​​​​https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_Fahrradwerke

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madpogue 

Have you tried cranking up the force/pressure, then just leaving it that way for a while? I've found that screw-type tie rod separator tools often work when the pressure can be sustained over time. No direct experience with this with cotters, but the principle may apply.