gazman22

Picked this up today. Best guess is the frame is the only thing left that is original. 26" wheel in front / 700c in rear! A little more rust than I would like but I wasn't going to pass it up. Looking to bring this back to some resemblance of original. Looking for any tips on what the component group may have been? Suggestions on a fork that may reasonably match? I will post the serial number when I give the bike a good scrub. A quick inspection on the bottom of the shell only showed chipped paint.

Thanks!

scarlson 

Welcome to the Taylor Owners Club Ah what fine work! Those pencil thin stays are a hallmark of the Taylors' build style for mixte/sport frames. The Taylors commonly marked the rear dropouts with serial numbers. The left side one, I think. You may want to check there.

Jack hand-did the paint and box-lining himself, and the paint on yours looks to have held up quite well.

If you haven't checked out the Blackbirdsf site, it is the place to go for more Taylor obscura and info. You may be able to figure out the year. Taylor serials were relatively ordinal and straightforward.

If you can find a serial, Mike Thompson (meauxtown at yahoo dot com) will find you the build sheet. At least he did for me!

I would get a fork made for it. That is the correct thing to do. Some builder should be able to replicate a proper fork for less than $300. If they get all weird about it, I recommend running away and finding a better builder. That bike deserves to be treated right. The "International" models I can find have either biplane or Nervex fork crowns. I'd see if you can get someone to handmake a biplane crowned fork for it!

Components would have been whatever the buyer wanted! Campy Gran Sport and a Stronglight 49D or TA Pro 5 vis crank, maybe? Mafac Criterium brakes. Wheels could have been anything, probably either 700c tubs or 27" wired-ons if you're in America. In Britain, could be EA3 Dunlop rims, but probably unlikely given the placement of the canti posts looks pretty good for 700c.

merziac

WOW!

Depends on where you land with this, could easily be a full on restore, lots of work and $$$$$.

Or could be a cobble to make it whole and rideable to see if it really speaks to you as I believe it should.

Obviously bent, banged and left for bad but it is what it is, cool as heck JT "sport" mixte with single top downtube, probably a good thing.

If that had been a twin skinny top tube mixte, it may have crumpled beyond and we wouldn't be talking about it.

Hands on consult with a good framebuilder would be in the works ifin it was me.

merziac

to all of the above.

gazman22

Do you you see frame damage? That would be a bummer if I missed it! Unfortunately, also not left for bad, but sold for bad .

gazman22

Thanks for the input. I have a Stronglight and Gran Sport in the parts box. Probably get it up on running with parts box fork, ride it and then see if it warrants a new, custom fork. Will find the serial number today.

scarlson 

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. It looks straight to me - even the pencil thin stays - and I didn't spy any dents.

I mean, what wouldn't I do with a nicely restored Taylor?? Their work was as good and as innovative as René Herse and other great constructeurs, and you can get them for nearly free because nobody seems to appreciate them. If nothing else, the restoration process itself will be edifying, and the ride may teach you something about bike handling. I learned a lot from restoring and riding mine.

merziac

The paint loss and possible striation marks above the tubing decal are suspect to me, most likely the fork was replaced from a head on collision so...

But as @scarlson points out it looks ok from here.

We need a good pic of the top of the other joint, straight on side shot and undersides too.

scarlson 

I believe the paint loss is because of poor adhesion of the paint to the bronze fillet. My Taylor has the same thing going on. Paint looks passable but has all flaked off of everywhere there was bronze. Still would be good to rule out front-end damage, if only because of the fork being missing. Look for bulges, as merziac mentioned on underside of downtube.

merziac

And don't get me wrong, I would be in big trouble here as I would be sorting out any and all problems for resolution without much if any restraint.

Make it so.

merziac

@gazman22

On another note, I would very carefully get that rear brake pulley/cable/hanger cleaned, lubed and evaluated.

With rusty cables it may be in a poor state, you really don't want to have to source and wrangle another one of those and they can be a real PITA.

gazman22

Thanks for the insights and comments!

gbi

Perhaps someone was trying to create a bike like a Georgena Terry for a female rider, and in doing so, it required a longer fork to accommodate the smaller front wheel.
Original fork may never have been damaged, just speculating.

merziac

Maybe, chances are the original fork would have stayed with the frame if it was still viable.

Bianchigirll 

How tall is it………

merziac

More, better pics of HT and DT's joints plz?

gazman22

Here are new photos from during and after break down. Always open to another set of eyes on this but I don't see any impact damage—just what looks like rust damage. Looks like 6706 on the serial number to me.

Initial plan is to deal with the rust as best I can. I think a fair amount of the surface rust will remove or minimize. Polish and wax for the short term. Rebuild with period correct components and see how it rides.

Amazing how good the paint looks where it hasn't been damaged.

Mr. 66

That looks good and solid.

merziac

@gazman22

Not disagreeing but not convinced either, if there is damage hiding in the rust at those joints and or under the paint, you will want to get out in front of it sooner rather than later and be caught off guard by it.

The rust alone could be bad enough to warrant more attention right now, I would want to know.

The paint is toast at them anyway, carefully scrub, scrape, remove after good pics of tubing decal for reproduction.

Remove rust, microscope, jewelers loupe, magnifying glass, harsh light, scrutinize, etc. then seal, touch up, plan if more work needed.

merziac

Did your paint have the uniform crackle lines too?

Drillium Dude 

An interesting frame, for sure. I, too, see classic evidence of a front end shunt. Too bad somebody Drewed the pump pegs off the downtube, too

It will be costly to replicate the fork and then paint, but if that's the plan, see if you can't source a pair of pump pegs, too!

DD

The Golden Boy 

Super cool project!!! Good luck!!!

scarlson 

6706, so that's 1974. Cool! You should see if you can get the build sheet!

It's got crazing, but not sure which way the lines run. One of these days I can grab a photo.

The lines in the picture look a little bit more like abrasion to me, or even just the paint following file marks on the brazed joint and then getting worn down. Unlike the modern generations of American builders (Merz, Weigle, Havnoonian, Gordon, etc), some classic European constructeurs (I speak of Herse and Taylor, whose work I own) were ok with sending out frames with tons of file marks, especially in the early days. The American builders we're used to would always sand a frame up until it was perfect. I think it's just culture, but that could explain the lines. I think I can see file marks on the side of one of the joints too.

I just found a little more information, too. The International model was supposed to have come with round-section fork blades. This means they are stiffer laterally, but less stiff front-to-back. Perhaps this is why the fork broke or bent (or why it was considered unacceptable enough to be tossed) without (or with minor) damage to the frame. It could also be that the rider didn't like the way it flexed under braking, or that the round blades didn't offer enough clearance for the available or desired tire size. The answer may be forever lost to time, but it provides insight into why the fork may be gone but the frame less likely to have been damaged. Just food for thought.

Doug Fattic 

It is more than just culture that Americans can do more finish work on custom frames than the classic era Europeans. I Paid $75 for my Hetchins frame in 1969. That means the builder has very limited time to make a frame and also make a profit. We can charge a lot more now and as a result can take more time for detailed finish work.

Some other random thoughts. Because this bike now has a replacement fork and a smaller 26" wheel, that changes the geometry that will change how the bike handles and feels. Don't base your impressions on a test ride.

Forks often got damaged because of roof top carriers. Besides forgetting they are up there when driving into the garage, they could also get damaged when the back wheel wasn't secured and they tip over making a mess of the front dropouts. The lines on the paint look like abrasion to me and I don't detect from the pictures it has been in a header.

I'd go after the rust with a small wire wheel on a Dremel or similar tool. I'd try to leave as much of the original paint as possible. There are ways a professional painter can make a paint job look okay without repainting from scratch. I just redid an old Schwinn for a friend. We patched things and cleaned things and then I did a final clear over everything with an additive to cut the gloss to a kind of semi-gloss. My friend has a name for this kind of repair I which I can't remember now. The end result was that it looked well worn but refreshed. I thought this was a great option and one more should try.

It was suggested that a new fork might cost about $300. I can't imagine any really good builder doing a special custom one that cheap. Ever. The problem is that some investigative work will need to be done with the frame in possession to know exact lengths and rake and whatnot. The build sheet would be a big help but won't necessarily give all the necessary information. That time shouldn't be free. Frame materials are kind of scarce right now and it would be easy to pay at least $100 for the materials if you can find them. Doing cantilever bosses right so they are mitered at the right height and width is in itself an expensive endeavor. And then there is the paint job with double box lining. Don't expect your builder/painter to have a decent color match in stock. When I buy a paint color at the Auto stores, I often pay $100 for a new color I don't have in stock (although fortunately I have a lot in stock).

Mixte frames are popular right now and one reconditioned would be valuable. BTW, when I was apprenticing at Ellis Briggs in Yorkshire in 1975, I visited the Taylor brothers for a day. Nice guys and a very interesting visit.

scarlson 

I wasn't suggesting that you can get an all-inclusive concierge fork build service for $300 including figuring out the dimensions and paint matching. But I don't know any framebuilders who would want to put in the time to get it right anyway, at any price - at least that's been my experience. If I were the OP, I would measure things and make a few decisions based on my taste and what the other Taylors look like, and then start shopping for forks or builders. It'll be good, and you might learn something. That may be part of the fun. Jeff Lyon will do a L'avecaise fork for $285. That includes powdercoat if I'm not mistaken. You'd probably have to tell him exactly what you wanted, and who knows about paint. Honestly, though, I'd just go to an auto parts store that can match paint, and have them make me up a can.