Naming and Scope?
06-18-21, 06:52 AM
#51
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Just rename it "C&V Waiting Room" 
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06-18-21, 06:35 PM
#54
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06-19-21, 08:15 AM
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I love how cromulent is totally a word now.
And I still say HyperGlide is the end of C&V, which slightly predates 130mm. Not sure exactly when the current era starts, but I like the idea of relating it to drivetrains because that's most relevant for technical enquiries - so maybe it should be the advent of 11s, since it obsoleted so many rear wheels?
And I still say HyperGlide is the end of C&V, which slightly predates 130mm. Not sure exactly when the current era starts, but I like the idea of relating it to drivetrains because that's most relevant for technical enquiries - so maybe it should be the advent of 11s, since it obsoleted so many rear wheels?
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06-20-21, 10:40 PM
#56
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I love how cromulent is totally a word now.
And I still say HyperGlide is the end of C&V, which slightly predates 130mm. Not sure exactly when the current era starts, but I like the idea of relating it to drivetrains because that's most relevant for technical enquiries - so maybe it should be the advent of 11s, since it obsoleted so many rear wheels?
And I still say HyperGlide is the end of C&V, which slightly predates 130mm. Not sure exactly when the current era starts, but I like the idea of relating it to drivetrains because that's most relevant for technical enquiries - so maybe it should be the advent of 11s, since it obsoleted so many rear wheels?
Freewheel vs freehub has an interesting history. Shimano came out with an EX freehub and cassette in the late 70’s. I think it was not widely accepted until 10 years later because 70’s and early 80’s Shimano was not considered good enough, compared to Campagnolo and Suntour, to be locked into having to use Shimano only cassettes for friction shifting.
Of course all that changed when the Suntour slant parallelogram patent ran out and SIS took over the industry.
John
06-21-21, 12:55 PM
#57
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That's a totally different category. Indexed shifting predates brifters*, and although indexing is necessary for most forms of brifter, I'd argue that integration had a significantly larger impact on how bikes are ridden.
*By six years if you're talking SIS, about a decade and a half if you're talking about the late-20th-century Japanese derailleur indexing race in general, or considerably longer if you're talking about all forms of indexing in bicycle drivetrains.
They share common characteristics that separate them from non-integrated road shifters in both placement and functional consequence (of particular note being the ability to easily shift while riding out of the saddle), and so it's often useful to have a non-brand-specific term to refer to them in general. Obviously you could also use a descriptive phrase like "integrated brake/shift lever", but these are a mouthful compared with the simple portmanteau "brifter."
Based on what? Can you point me to an example of a discussion where someone is using "brifter" in a manner that clearly excludes Ergo?
I feel like we're speaking different languages.
*By six years if you're talking SIS, about a decade and a half if you're talking about the late-20th-century Japanese derailleur indexing race in general, or considerably longer if you're talking about all forms of indexing in bicycle drivetrains.
They share common characteristics that separate them from non-integrated road shifters in both placement and functional consequence (of particular note being the ability to easily shift while riding out of the saddle), and so it's often useful to have a non-brand-specific term to refer to them in general. Obviously you could also use a descriptive phrase like "integrated brake/shift lever", but these are a mouthful compared with the simple portmanteau "brifter."
Based on what? Can you point me to an example of a discussion where someone is using "brifter" in a manner that clearly excludes Ergo?
I feel like we're speaking different languages.
06-21-21, 01:04 PM
#58
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So if somebody somehow installs an 9-speed Campy 2x9 on a 1950s Clubman frame or a PX-10, then replaces the Ergopowers and cassettes with 10 sp, what has he got? a C&V, an early 7, 8, 9, or ... well, I guess we can't say it is a Retro Roadie or a resident of Road Forum ... ?
06-21-21, 08:12 PM
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Between early STI’s and their associated hoods, and the difficulty in finding Octalink V1 on the higher end Shimano 9 speed road groups, I’m running a 6503 crankset on one bike, this subforum does have its work cut out for them.
For it to become a viable landing spot for those with 90’s road bikes, there needs to be some solutions the C&V downtube-shifting-square-taper-folks don’t have to worry about, at least not quite as much.
It would be wise to have a couple of sticky’s to guide those riders who want to maintain their 90’s bikes.
Does anyone make a V1?
What era similar cranks are available?
Is anyone offering new silver anodized 7, 8, 9 speed brifters? If not is there a way to get there?
John
For it to become a viable landing spot for those with 90’s road bikes, there needs to be some solutions the C&V downtube-shifting-square-taper-folks don’t have to worry about, at least not quite as much.
It would be wise to have a couple of sticky’s to guide those riders who want to maintain their 90’s bikes.
Does anyone make a V1?
What era similar cranks are available?
Is anyone offering new silver anodized 7, 8, 9 speed brifters? If not is there a way to get there?
John
06-23-21, 09:40 AM
#60
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So if somebody somehow installs an 9-speed Campy 2x9 on a 1950s Clubman frame or a PX-10, then replaces the Ergopowers and cassettes with 10 sp, what has he got? a C&V, an early 7, 8, 9, or ... well, I guess we can't say it is a Retro Roadie or a resident of Road Forum ... ?
I'd probably want to see the stages of that evolution.
Is this keeping you up at night?
06-24-21, 06:18 AM
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06-24-21, 06:54 AM
#62
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Well, I'm not the guy who already quit this thread as "too repetitive", then came back to post a couple crazy hypothetical bike scenarios to try to prove something(?) about the naming of the forum.
I think you've gotten your answers, "brifter" in the name includes Campy for the purposes of this forum, "early" is going to be in the eyes of the beholder.
I'd probably add that "early brifter" refers to the bike's original equipment or to any equipment that was on the bike at any time, so that later modifications don't take the bike out of the category. The usefulness of this forum is going to be enhanced by discussions of what modifications do and don't work well.
06-24-21, 01:45 PM
#63
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Nothing about this has much to do with authority. This is a discussion on language. Language is, by and large, defined by those who use it: if you can point to examples of "brifter" being used in a manner which excludes Ergo, then your point might look strong. But thus far, those who have weighed in have not backed up your claim. If everybody except you thinks that it includes all integrated road brake-shift levers - as the construction of the word "brifter," and its entire reason for existing, seem to imply - then you're on fairly weak standing. This standing doesn't become stronger if you're Alfredo Binda's grandfather or whatever.
Last edited by HTupolev; 06-24-21 at 01:49 PM.
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06-25-21, 07:52 AM
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Nothing about this has much to do with authority. This is a discussion on language. Language is, by and large, defined by those who use it: if you can point to examples of "brifter" being used in a manner which excludes Ergo, then your point might look strong. But thus far, those who have weighed in have not backed up your claim. If everybody except you thinks that it includes all integrated road brake-shift levers - as the construction of the word "brifter," and its entire reason for existing, seem to imply - then you're on fairly weak standing.
07-01-21, 10:09 AM
#65
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I was responding to your claim that you had experience with "brifter" excluding Ergo. I was asking what that experience was.
Nothing about this has much to do with authority. This is a discussion on language. Language is, by and large, defined by those who use it: if you can point to examples of "brifter" being used in a manner which excludes Ergo, then your point might look strong. But thus far, those who have weighed in have not backed up your claim. If everybody except you thinks that it includes all integrated road brake-shift levers - as the construction of the word "brifter," and its entire reason for existing, seem to imply - then you're on fairly weak standing. This standing doesn't become stronger if you're Alfredo Binda's grandfather or whatever.
Nothing about this has much to do with authority. This is a discussion on language. Language is, by and large, defined by those who use it: if you can point to examples of "brifter" being used in a manner which excludes Ergo, then your point might look strong. But thus far, those who have weighed in have not backed up your claim. If everybody except you thinks that it includes all integrated road brake-shift levers - as the construction of the word "brifter," and its entire reason for existing, seem to imply - then you're on fairly weak standing. This standing doesn't become stronger if you're Alfredo Binda's grandfather or whatever.
I rode a few buddies bikes briefly, maybe 15 years ago. I read opinions and q&a about them in in RBR, the lists here, RBT, Paceline, Velocipede Salon and a slew of other forums. I don't want a lot of history on Facebook so I try to keep that or family and old school connections. I've seen the term used in a wide range of magazine writing ever since indexing began. I rarely recall seeing the term used comprehensively across the brands.
My opinion on use of the term is also based on users of language - me and the writers I have read. The broad implication I have absorbed is that "brifter" generally does not include Campagnolo.
07-02-21, 04:07 PM
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I agree there's no such thing as authority on this topic. I don't think I said or suggested my opinion is stronger if my hair is more grey. My exposure to different language in the cycling world is potentially longer.
I rode a few buddies bikes briefly, maybe 15 years ago. I read opinions and q&a about them in in RBR, the lists here, RBT, Paceline, Velocipede Salon and a slew of other forums. I don't want a lot of history on Facebook so I try to keep that or family and old school connections. I've seen the term used in a wide range of magazine writing ever since indexing began. I rarely recall seeing the term used comprehensively across the brands.
My opinion on use of the term is also based on users of language - me and the writers I have read. The broad implication I have absorbed is that "brifter" generally does not include Campagnolo.
I rode a few buddies bikes briefly, maybe 15 years ago. I read opinions and q&a about them in in RBR, the lists here, RBT, Paceline, Velocipede Salon and a slew of other forums. I don't want a lot of history on Facebook so I try to keep that or family and old school connections. I've seen the term used in a wide range of magazine writing ever since indexing began. I rarely recall seeing the term used comprehensively across the brands.
My opinion on use of the term is also based on users of language - me and the writers I have read. The broad implication I have absorbed is that "brifter" generally does not include Campagnolo.
Brifter--A combination brake/shift lever, such as a Campagnolo Ergo or Shimano S.T.I. unit. This term was coined by Bruce Frech.
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07-07-21, 12:32 AM
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07-07-21, 10:13 AM
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The crazy thing was transplanting the Retro Roadies thread from C&V here. Then you go in see all these post-early brifters on old steel bikes.
John
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07-08-21, 05:25 PM
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I've just put on 8 speed 105 brifters on my Allez Pro to replace the Sora brifters I had to replace my 8 speed 600 brifters when they died. No question that the 600s were the smoothest of the lot, but the Sora and the 105 are pretty similar. I don't like the thumb shifters on the Sora.
Mainly, the difference between the old and new is esthetic, and obviously the line between the two is going to be somewhat arbitrary. But I'm not intending to pretend that there's a serious difference in kind.
07-08-21, 08:31 PM
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I'd be surprised if they're truly cactus - the design is extremely robust and generally only stops working due to gummy grease - there's a link to an overhaul thread in my tag.
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Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
07-08-21, 09:13 PM
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