Brian

I've been reading some of these threads, and there seems to be a common theme. Now, I'm all for seeing more people cycling for fun, and more commuters. Doesn't matter what you ride, or why you ride, just so long as you're riding. But please explain this contempt for car owners.

When I return to the US, I'm going to go into the business of producing utility bikes and associated items like large racks and trailers. But I'll still have 2 cars in the driveway and at least 8 bikes in the garage. Does that mean some of you won't buy from me, because I still drive a car?

Bekologist

It's not car owners, expat, it's car culture.

It's about traffic, congestion, and quality of life. It's about no blood for oil. It's a disbelief in America's myopic vision of themselves. It's overweight kids with type 2 diabetes sitting in a traffic jam stuffing their face with french fries. It's a disgust at people who drive a car three blocks to the store for a pack of smokes. It's a backlash against the sheer anger and disgust exhibited by drivers towards people choosing human powered transport. And its about greener environmental choices.

It's all those reasons and more. Am I disgusted by car culture and its fume spewing sloth? Yes.

Heck, I own a car, and I hate myself for the sheer wastfulness of it all. I'm a self loathing, (virtually) non-driving, car owner.

Brian

It seems silly to me. I work in the transport industry, and our main clients are 2 aluminium smelters. They blast huge holes in the ground, and use giant earth moving machines to remove the raw materials. It's heated in giant crucibles to a molten form, then anodes are dropped in and massive amount of voltage are applied to purify the metal. The ingots, logs, and slabs are then loaded by forklifts onto trucks, and are brought to our yard. We load it into containers, and rail it by electric train to the wharf, where more heavy equipment loads it onto boats that will deliver it around the world. I can't name our customers, but I can assure you that the bike you're riding has at least one or more component on it that came from the ground here. And bikes still have rubber tyres. Sure, it's not as wasteful as a car, but the environmental impact is there.

Food for thought.

Bekologist

There's a concept called 'environmental footprint' I'm sure you are familiar with? There is no way to remove your self from the entropy supply chain, you can only minimize your participation in it.

In any comparision of energy costs associated with the production of a personal automobile versus the energy costs associated with manufacturing a bicycle there would seem to be a quantifiable difference.

Then, the energy costs associated with the operation of the vehicle...


Now, add in social, environmental and quality of life cost differences - the disdain for car culture seems merited; socially imperative if one takes it to the extreme.

BeTheChange

Very good point! I've thought about this a lot. Refining aluminum takes 1/6 of the world's electricity. There is no way to have absolutely no environmental impact if you live. I've just tried to minamize as much as possible and try to work toward a more sustainable society. I can't speak for anyone else but it is wastefullness that is the irritating part of our society. And when you get in a box to sleep (your home), then move yourself to another box(your job) in a box (your car) it can distance you from society. I think the contempt really stems from the motorists almost killing us and being openly hostile because of their anoniminity because they are in a car that they own so they feel safe to do whatever they want. Some car-free feel they are helping society (as I do, even though I'm just car-lite) so this hostility toward us is then resented. I don't think most motorsits think "hey, by that cyclist not driving they are not using gas and reducing demand for it, therefor they are lowering prices for me." Most likely they think "what does this guy think he's doing on MY road?"

What I have described is the reactions of any minority before it has been accepted by society. Some people express themselves with contempt toward the majority. The industrail revolution has given emense power to the common man that has never been seen throughout history. Now (surprise surprise) when anyone can have great power without it being necessary to think about their actions to survive they can act like jerks. That's part of why some people resent the car culture. But, since oil production will peak in our lifetime (in almost all expert's estimates) I think the healthiest thing for anti-car advocates can do is just be happy with what they are doing and enjoy the many benefits of biking instead. Just my horribly written and organized thoughts (ADD makes for some jumbled writing; sorry about that).

Brian

The quality of life bit interests me. I was thinking about that on the way home. In SoCal, I had 3 cars - a 4WD for playtime, a toy-racer for getting to work on the weekends in Malibu, and a slightly more grown up and comfortable compact SUV for daily use. Over here, I have a single car. My wife doesn't drive. Lack of car severely limits our income potential over here. My wife is limited as to where she can work, due to lack of transportation. I could have gotten a lower paying job in town, but by virtue of being able to travel, I have earned an income that allows us to live in relative comfort with 3 kids in the house. We would not have been able to afford the $15k or so worth of bikes we've bought/built in the last year, were it not for my commute. Sure, my side business helped, but it's the steady pay that's made the difference. Weather permitting, I can commute to my current work location a few days a week. But in my case, the car makes the difference in our lifestyle.

Bekologist

we're all very happy for you.

BeTheChange

Many places have been set up on the premice of incredibly cheap energy. So many places everything is set up around a car. I wouldn't worry too much. Do what makes you happy because the cheap energy culture will be just a drop in the man to history. I just hope that there will still be scientists (like me ) when the oil runs out and we can somehow keep a pretty good quality of life. Things may change but that's OK. I hate the car culture, but I don't hate the people because most just don't know there is any problem. Just do what make you happy expatriate.

Brian

You forgot the [SARCASM] tags. I'm not a slave to my car. I paid cash for it, and due to my good driving record, insurance is $30/month. Petrol cost about $20-30/week. Rego was $300. So it costs me roughly $150 a month. That's about what we pay for electricity here. And we still use our bikes on weekends for light grocery shopping and coffee runs. But I guess I'm the bad guy for owning a car at all.

Bekologist

when i reread your post i saw the lack of a second car affected you family income, but i didn't want to redact a succinct post.

It's all a trade off in what you believe versus what you are willing to put up with, expat. your family sound all right off. Got 15,000 worth of bikes that need hauling, right?

You shouldn't self identify yourself as an evil car owner unless you're suffering from a guilty conscience. Which is what a lot of your rationalizations sound like.

pedex

Probably goes w/o saying but im gonna say it anyway........every man woman and child on the planet cannot live the typical american or english speaking country's typical car centric life or lifestyle.........its not physically possible. Having said that and then realizing that the world is rapidly approaching a point where this is becoming very much an issue and we've likely already gone way past the point of no return with respect to permanent environmental damage and resource depletion due to this type of life, why not make changes? If its possible to do so on a personal basis and community level, it is the responsible thing to do. At some point everyone will have to make sacrifices, voluntary one's are often easier.

Having said all that, I dont hate cars or car drivers, but I do find that many of them are clueless and irresponsible with their attitude and serious lack of any consideration to their own impact on the world. That does piss me off to no end. Can one person make a difference, sure, a very small one, but every little bit helps doesnt it?

We as humans and animals share the same traits as all other animals, we will destroy ourselves by overconsuming, even knowingly. That doesnt mean everyone has to have this same attitude though, I for one do believe there is hope, and I have and will continue to make sacrifices towards that end, even if it may be a futile attempt, couldnt live with myself any other way. Its only natural to have some disdain for someone when you see them drive 1/2 mile for a basic errand isnt it? Or commute a couple miles for work using a car, or any other traveling that could be done much cheaper and responsibly.

MediaCreations 

What? You use electricity? Have you no respect for the environment?

Mtn Mike

Yep, that about sums it up.

Brian

Guilt free, and non-apologetic.

Perhaps I'm a bit too idealistic, but I've got ideas that I want to see embraced by more consumers. It's a total waste trying to push things here, but I've got hope for the US. Our new house will have some way to capture solar energy. We'll have a worm farm for recycling food scraps. A compost bin. A water tank to capture rainwater for our organic garden. I've done my research on this, and come to the conclusion that my family can lessen our environmental impact. Perhaps I will be seen as a hypocrite, doing all this plus promoting utility cycling, yet still owning a 4WD to haul my motorcycles. So be it. I'll sleep well at night no matter what.

becnal

Every life form on the planet has an environmental impact.

And besides, this is the "Living Car Free" forum. Perfectly fine to deride cars here. This is one of the few places where we can do so unabashedly.

Brian

Our 1920's miner cottage never had any provisions for a water heater, so we have the instantaneous kind. Great for tea at the office, but it costs well over $100/month to heat water for showers. Stooopid Energy Australia!


Lance - point well taken.

Placid Casual

1) The zealousness of the newly converted.

2) The super-duper zealousness of the newly converted former sinner.

Autokat

If you want to have cars go for it I'm sure no one on here will get bent out of shape about it .It's just that some people want to see change and not having a car is a good way to start ,I mean if it makes one person think about the damage that is being done by the automotive industry it's a start .You would need to have a car in Newcastle that's for sure , the place used to be the steel capital of Australia and it's gone downhill since the 60's My father was a foreman at the steel works and now he can see the damage that has been done ( and he's 71 ) so there is hope yet . I have family that lives in Sydney and nearly all of the people there have no respect or don't want to know about bicycles .
The car scene down that way is the biggest in Australia that's why you don't find many people who want to commute ,I don't know why if they were smart they would when I was there last it took me 45 minutes to drive 15 km the place is a joke .

You should have moved to Queensland , fuel is cheaper , so is housing ,food ,electric , gas and more laid back .And they are trying to be more environmentally sound up here , they are building a bikeway that starts at Noosa ( sunshine coast ) to Sydney .They have it built from the Gold coast to Coffs harbour ( about 250-300 km ) they should have Brisbane to the Gold caost done soon and Noosa to Brisbane is under construction . It should all be built by 2008 well that's what they say anyway .Hopefully that may change some attitudes here in Australia .

Brian

I wouldn't mind living in QLD. I've been to Cairns and all the local touristy places around there. Stayed in Yorkey's Knob, which was quiet and out of the way. But the missus is a Novocastrian, so that's where I ended up. And yes, you need a car here. Maybe not for every day use, but there would be no way for me to get to work without one.

Before anyone jumps on that last comment, understand that I do ride to work when I can. But when the winds are 100Km/h, or it's pissing down rain, I'm not going to ride along a link road where the speed limit is 90. I've already worked out an alternate route for parts of my commute, but there's no other options for 2 bad stretches. And then when I arrive, I have to deal with trucks, forklifts, and trains.

I suppose I'll only dabble, and will never be a full convert. Still no guilt, no apology.

Bekologist

Maybe once you move to the american West and invent a bicycle utility trailer you can haul your motorcycles with!

Living with a 'Utility bike' ethic, as opposed to just owning a utility bike, would generally preclude a lot of 4WD vehicle use to haul motorcycles, yes.

Hauling motorcycles for recreation is something most 'utility cyclists' don't even have to deal with, I'd imagine.

A certain hypocracy would be exhibited by a self identified 'utility biker' taking lots of trips with his 4WD. If you want to 'self identify' as a person belonging to a group you only aspire to emulate, that's self delusional.

The people in the town you live in might question your ethics if your 4WD is plastered with 'human powered transport ' advertisments. And bike shops might question your message if your travelling salestruck is a Hummer with HPV bumper stickers.

If you just wanted to make a buck without actually using your products regularily, you could capitalize on designs emulating from somewhere other than genuine utility.

does that make sense? No apology needed.

patc

Contempt because they have allowed themselves to become dependent on a car... but it goes beyond that for me. I hate the selfishness a personal-use car represents. That means the owner is willing to poison the air, use up diminishing resources, and cover the landscape in pavement just so he/she can drive around.

We've gone from few or no smog-warning days to about 30 last summer. Every remaining green space in my neighbourhood is being removed for "transportation corridors". All because some people care more about themselves than those around them. The only good news is that I live in a city willing to work on the problem of car-use in urban centres. Unfortunately they are not addressing the real problem: selfish people.

budster

You said it well, as did Bekologist in his first reply.

The number of "orange" air quality days in Charlotte has quadrupled over the last 20 years. The number of incredibly fat people has done the same. I don't hate people who drive cars (I drive sometimes, too). I hate having to drive to many of the places I want to go, and having to apologize/explain my eccentricity if I don't drive.

I believe in the power of the bicycle to cure a lot of what ails us, and I find the biggest obstacles to convincing others to bike are: 1) the behavior of many car drivers; and (more especially) 2) a transportation system set up solely to accomodate cars.

And yeah, I resent the hell out of that second one.

patc

What gets to me: Ottawa, like many other North American cities, had a perfectly good light rail system until the late 50's/early 60's which they tore out!. Then, in the 80's, they realised the "oops" and started taking public transit seriously, but went with buses. Now, 50 years after removing the last street car, we are spending big $$ building a light rail system. Hello, does no one think about the long term?

Also like many other cities, we (and the former municipalities now amalgamted into Ottawa) allowed massive sub-urban developments in the 80's and 90's. Again the clue arrived to late: we now have an "in-build or don't build" policiy, but we are stuck providing city services to all sorts of places outside the core.

nathank

you guys probably mostly all know this already, but...

General Motors and a tire company (Firestone i think) and an oil company were found GUILTY in US Court for conspiracy for exactly this:
they indirectly bought the trolley systems in vairous cities (Portland, Sanfrancisco + others) and replaced them with busses = tore up or paved over the tracks == more vehicles to sell, more tires and more oil! they were found guilty in court and had to pay some penalty but the damage was already done!

not sure if the same thing happened in canada, but very likely.

nathank

i agree with most of the posts here...

i could drive a huge massive gas-guzzling car all over the place - actually i used to as i grew up in auto-centric Texas -- and waste and pollute and use whatever i want - because i'm American and i can afford it and i could use my car to demonstrate to others how bad-ass and rich and successful i am, but why? i just don't need that and it's just selfish and materialistic anyway. 99% of the time i get more enjoyment out of biking than driving (especially in traffic which these days is basically ALWAYS) so why should i drive to conform and prove my social status? i don't need to do that (i am happy biking and thereby reducing stress, improving my fitness AND reducing my environmental and social impact and danger to others... and at the same time having fun!)

i don't hate cars and cars can have their uses (i am currently again car-lite) BUT our car-centered culture is REALLY a problem. an example: in American most parents are overprotective of their kids and allow them virtually no freedoms for fear of kipnapping or accidents or whatever, and don't allow them to play with this or that toy b/c in some case some kid could injure himself, restrict TV and films and whatnot and protect their kids from "all dangers" and move to the "right neighboorhood", etc etc. then they think they are "protecting" their kids be driving them everywhere instead of letting them walk or bike b/c that is DANGEROUS, thereby exposing the kids to the greatest danger in our society: motor vehicle crashes. AND setting their kids up for a life of inactvitiy, obesity and auto-dependence! and these parents REALLY believe they are doing all they can for their kids!! and they never see it and may never see it even after their kids are sick, dead or in the hospital --- they are blinded by our auto-centric culture where it is simply accepted as "the price of progress" that thousands of americans die every year in auto accidents...

and sure, then parents lobby for a new stop light or better child seats or whatever, but how few actually deal with the problem: removing high-speed deadly vehicles from the environment where their kids are? so kids could walk or bike to school? and then when that case comes up where some idiot mows down a pedestrian or cyclist and says "i just didn't see him" it is accepted as a valid "excuse" -- i.e. "the cost of progress"

anyway, just one example.

the other big factor also has to do with CONSUMERISM. driving is cool and a "tough" "rugged" "cool" SUV makes you popular and whatnot. we are flooded with these images and the auto is presented as THE tool to gain freedom --- the "freedom" to become car-dependent and pay lots of money for a late-model car (b/c only a loser drive an old beater), repairs, insurance, gas etc.; spend hours per day sitting in traffic; get no exercise b/c walking and biking are for the "poor and underpriviledged" and at the same time pollute the planet and endanger the lives of other!!! "because it's cool" ---- unfortunately this advertising affects our society greatly. most Americans consider a person who doesn't own a car to be some how not right - either poor or weird or whatever. why? and most "happyily" becomes slaves to their cars spending a LARGE percentage or their income on a car.

[to be read in tone of classic American Libertarian] and then there's the amount of MY TAX MONEY that goes to subsidize this social and environment killer -- through "oil wars" and freeway interchange construction and whatnot...
[and back to my voice]i'm not saying NO money should be spent on roads and tranportation, but the one-sided of the auto-infrastructure is ridiculous. or places like where my sister used to live 500ft from a mall but had to walk over a mile to get there as it was separated by a freeway - huh? auto-centric!!

anyway, the reasons go on. unfortunately most of these problems are both a) entrenched and b) backed by lots of $$$$$ and "sensible" alternatives like riding a bike or re-designing a community for walking and biking instead of motoring do not offer much of anyone the potential to make a buck...

thus, there these things are virtually "invisible" or people don't believe it when someone points it out (that just can't be true!!) and virtually no one is doing anything to change things (except for the thousand of people who are earning big bucks are doing all they can to KEEP things as they are!)

as a result i attempt to do what i can to not make it any worse: i am now car-lite and i only drive in the city if it is ABSOLUTLEY necessary (i.e. transporting large stuff or an elderly person or whatever) and i try to do what i can to improve conditions for walking and biking (actually i currently live in Germany so that parts pretty easy at the moment )