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Garmin Performance Condition

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Garmin Performance Condition

Old 07-22-22, 08:17 AM
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merlinextraligh
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Garmin Performance Condition

Do you use it, and for what purpose?

My understanding is that Performance Condition measures heart rate, heart rate variability, power, and speed to calculate your real time VO2 max, and then compares that to your recent VO2 max, and is supposed to be an indicator of whether you’re on a good day or bad day.

Also, change In Performance Condition over a long ride may be a marker of fatigue.

I do have to say that the initial Performance Condition number Garmin kicks out does seem to correlate pretty highly with how I feel. Plus number and I am likely to have a good day. Baseline or below, and I’m likely to struggle hitting the zones for the days workout.

However, it may also be a self fulfilling prophesy.
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Old 07-22-22, 08:21 AM
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I look at it. Along with all the other things Garmin tells me. Haven't decide yet if it knows any more than I do. But when taken with the other info it does at least give a second opinion and maybe make me consider some stuff I might have ignored or glossed over.
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Old 07-22-22, 08:32 AM
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Yes, I’ve been using performance condition during rides.

If it’s quite low, I’ll dial back the effort or shorten the ride. No intervals on low PC days.

Early in the ride, the number seems to vary, so I ignore it until I’ve had at least 30 minutes of warm up.

Also, it seems that heat depresses the PC value. On a hot day, I don’t worry too much about a low number.
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Old 07-22-22, 08:33 AM
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I don't look at it beyond when it pops up within the first 15 minutes of the ride. While it mostly tracks with how I'm feeling, I believe that it give me erroneous readings on occasion. It's usually on the optimistic side and often when I feel like I'm fatigued and my HR isn't responding/elevating very well in response to demand.
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Old 07-22-22, 09:20 AM
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I see it… but it doesn’t seem to account for heat and isn’t particularly useful for me. More of just a curiosity or note.
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Old 07-22-22, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post



Early in the ride, the number seems to vary, so I ignore it until I’ve had at least 30 minutes of warm up.
.
I agree. I live on the top of a hill. It seems that if I descend off the hill, so low power at the start of the ride, the number is lower, than if I climb the last bit of the hill and ride on the ridge before descending.

from what I’ve read it considers power and speed but not grade.

if I start downhill, but then start climbing the initial number usually goes up
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Old 07-22-22, 05:12 PM
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It should be power relative to heart rate, which is basically how they calculate VO2max too. If you feel like performance condition is a useful thing, it's a data field and can be displayed in real time as you ride. (Its value dropping sharply means you could bonk soon.)

​​​​​​Some of the features in their newer hardware, especially watches, make performance condition kind of obsolete.
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Old 07-22-22, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
It should be power relative to heart rate, which is basically how they calculate VO2max too. If you feel like performance condition is a useful thing, it's a data field and can be displayed in real time as you ride. (Its value dropping sharply means you could bonk soon.)

​​​​​​Some of the features in their newer hardware, especially watches, make performance condition kind of obsolete.

1) So iI’m thinking my initial performance condition reading descending from the house is distorted because im producing little power, but just getting the bike out of the closet, down the stairs etc has elevated my hr a bit.

2) what are these new features of which you speak?
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Old 07-22-22, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
1) So iI’m thinking my initial performance condition reading descending from the house is distorted because im producing little power, but just getting the bike out of the closet, down the stairs etc has elevated my hr a bit.

2) what are these new features of which you speak?
1 - My guess is your PC is slightly less reliable at the start of a ride, but not by much. How long into your ride does it take for it to give you a reading? Their documentation gives a range of how long it might take, mine used to always pop up at the same time until I moved and now it takes a couple extra minutes.

1b - I don't know if you ever look at your ride data in Garmin Connect, or only on Strava like most people. If on Connect, you've seen there's a chart showing your performance condition over the course of the ride. Curious whether you think it tracks better with realty after you've descended the hill and warmed up?

2 - The watches collect an HRV baseline over three weeks and gives you a "training readiness" from that, your sleep quality, and acute training load. The new stamina and potential features are like a bonk countdown and tries to tell you how the ride you're doing will affect your next couple days.
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Old 07-23-22, 01:08 PM
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It typically takes about 10 minutes to pop up. Today I did 4 and half hours with 5500 feet of climbing and temperature in the mid 90”s.

PC started at -1. Once I started climbing it started moving up, going to +3, and staying there for the entire ride.

I wouldn’t say I was cooked by the end of the ride, but definitely felt the effort. I would have expected PC to drop toward the end as the day got hotter, and I got more fatigued.
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Old 07-24-22, 10:42 PM
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I look at it when it pops up at the start of my ride. And even then, it does not pop up all the time. Which is frustrating as all get out. But that's another topic...I do look at my PC numbers when I am home. I compare the numbers to how I felt during the ride. Often times, the numbers are close to how I was feeling. i.e. Negative numbers and yeah, I felt bad. Positive numbers I felt good. Not sure if the PC is just confirmation bias or not. Still interesting all the same.
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Old 07-25-22, 01:51 PM
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I see the performance condition, if it pops up, and ignore it. The reason is that I have a prescribed workout and I am doing it come hell or high water. And sometimes, the performance conditions shows a negative number.

I also get a report at the end of the ride which is generally totally bogus. I am sure other Garmin 830 users get the same report. I ignore that one was well or use it for comic relief.

I send in reports to my coach who reviews them and sees me riding at least once per week.
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Old 07-25-22, 02:10 PM
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I think Garmin data is pretty off. For myself I have a real low resting heart rate at 38-40. I am 60 and pretty hard for me to get above 150 on the HR unless I am climbing long and long. I find at 145 I am pretty much near the limit. Therefore, I believe Garmin not only thinks I am not working too hard but also that my calorie used is low. This morning I road 52 miles in 3:04 HR 111 average. Garmin thinks I burned up 1245 calories and had 2.5 PC for the aerobic and 1.1 for anaerobic. The only time Garmin thinks I am working even about 3 on the PC my heart rate has to be above 120 for 3 hours. I can do it but I will assure you I think I am much more beat than it says and I used more calories. Basically I don't care but interesting.
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Old 07-25-22, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by deacon mark View Post
I think Garmin data is pretty off. For myself I have a real low resting heart rate at 38-40. I am 60 and pretty hard for me to get above 150 on the HR unless I am climbing long and long. I find at 145 I am pretty much near the limit. Therefore, I believe Garmin not only thinks I am not working too hard but also that my calorie used is low. This morning I road 52 miles in 3:04 HR 111 average. Garmin thinks I burned up 1245 calories and had 2.5 PC for the aerobic and 1.1 for anaerobic. The only time Garmin thinks I am working even about 3 on the PC my heart rate has to be above 120 for 3 hours. I can do it but I will assure you I think I am much more beat than it says and I used more calories. Basically I don't care but interesting.
What is your maximum heart rate set to? In your Garmin. ​​​​​
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Old 07-25-22, 02:30 PM
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Nope. Don't use it. Just ride and ignore what it says.
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Old 07-25-22, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
What is your maximum heart rate set to? In your Garmin. ​​​​​
I have it at 161 my age minus 220. That is about what I have gotten before in an all out wipe out. I have hit that HR maybe twice in past 18 months. I see many cyclist that are my age that get there HR up to well above that to over 170. I realize that it varies with everyone but I do find it interesting. I should invest in a power meter maybe you can throw out one that would work. I would go with the pedal options only so Garmin or the Assamo. That probably would tell me I what I am really doing. I have a high tolerance for endurance but probably for outright power I am not too much really. I just find all that data suspect based 40 plus years of distance running and cycling. Running I can get up higher faster but I have runner's dystonia so I cannot really run my brain and body has forgot how. This is not a joke but the few times it kicks in then running does take the HR higher faster.
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Old 07-25-22, 04:41 PM
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Today's Performance Condition was, um interesting.

I felt pretty peppy as I rode an easy pace to the start of a climb, and the Garmin popped up a +7 PC.

After just a few minutes, why do my legs feel so heavy on this climb, making me reach for lower gears than usual?

I checked, and the PC had rapidly dropped to -5, and it stayed there for the rest of the ride. Even the descent.

Either it was coincidence, or Garmin saw something was afoot. "Interesting".


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Old 07-25-22, 05:32 PM
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Mine will sometimes start low and then rise after a hard effort, or start high and then immediately plunge. Mostly regardless of how I feel or do. It's the least useful of the Garmin metrics I've looked at; much worse than Stress and Body Battery.
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Old 07-25-22, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Mine will sometimes start low and then rise after a hard effort, or start high and then immediately plunge. Mostly regardless of how I feel or do. It's the least useful of the Garmin metrics I've looked at; much worse than Stress and Body Battery.
The body battery/stress thing sounds sort of hokey and doesn’t give the absolute metrics one might like, but it tracks faithfully with HRV and might be slightly better in practice.

The new Garmin system on my boat gives me my “Suck Factor,” which goes up after a particularly slow tack or dumbass tactical move. I find it very helpful.
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Old 07-25-22, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
The body battery/stress thing sounds sort of hokey and doesn’t give the absolute metrics one might like, but it tracks faithfully with HRV and might be slightly better in practice.

The new Garmin system on my boat gives me my “Suck Factor,” which goes up after a particularly slow tack or dumbass tactical move. I find it very helpful.
The BB/S thing does depend on constant wearing to work, but it's pretty accurate to what I can do for the day. It works well as "am I just dragging a little and need to HTFU, or am I really running low?".
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Old 07-25-22, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
The body battery/stress thing sounds sort of hokey and doesn’t give the absolute metrics one might like, but it tracks faithfully with HRV and might be slightly better in practice.

The new Garmin system on my boat gives me my “Suck Factor,” which goes up after a particularly slow tack or dumbass tactical move. I find it very helpful.
​​​​​​The stress feature is literally just a graphical way of showing whether HRV is increasing or decreasing.
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Old 07-25-22, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
The BB/S thing does depend on constant wearing to work, but it's pretty accurate to what I can do for the day. It works well as "am I just dragging a little and need to HTFU, or am I really running low?".
​​​​​​The thing that makes me a half decent endurance athlete is being able to lie to myself. When I'd really like to make the call of shame I tell myself I have the ten more hills in me it takes to finish. Digging deep means "shut up, legs!" So, yeah, sometimes it's not really clear.

I mean there have also been days when I've started off feeling sluggish, then after a couple hard efforts it's like I just woke up and I'm ready for more.
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Old 07-26-22, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
The BB/S thing does depend on constant wearing to work, but it's pretty accurate to what I can do for the day. It works well as "am I just dragging a little and need to HTFU, or am I really running low?".
True about the constant wear, but I'm used to sleeping with a watch on.

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​The stress feature is literally just a graphical way of showing whether HRV is increasing or decreasing.
Yes, but I'm pretty sure Firstbeat claim the "Body Battery" is a composite measure which includes sleep and HR. Does seem to be very HRV-heavy, though.
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Old 07-26-22, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
The body battery/stress thing sounds sort of hokey and doesn’t give the absolute metrics one might like, but it tracks faithfully with HRV and might be slightly better in practice.

The new Garmin system on my boat gives me my “Suck Factor,” which goes up after a particularly slow tack or dumbass tactical move. I find it very helpful.
You just need to activate the MYA alarm.
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Old 07-26-22, 09:27 AM
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According to Garmin Connect, my track session on Tuesday recorded a Garmin training score of 239. The primary benefit was anaerobic capacity with a 3.4 for aerobic and 3.5 for anaerobic. My performance factor started with a +2.5 and flipped to -2.5 during the warmup. Garmin predicted a 33 hour recovery time.

Power TSS based upon my FTP setting was 147.

So what was the workout and how did I feel?

We start with an unstructured warmup for 20 min and then to a structured pace line warmup. After 20 laps, the coach comes out with a motor and there is a 20 lap motor burnout where each rider gets 2 laps on the motor and then has to pull off and go to the end. My performance factor flipped from 2.5 to minus 2.5 when the motor accelerated the pace line and remained unchanged for 3 hours.

Recovery and 4 jumps 2 seated and 2 standing.

Recovery and then 5, flying 3 man team sprints, diving off the banking versus a standing start. I was in the 3 position. 2 sprints then 5 minutes of recovery between and then 15 minutes of recovery and go back out and do two more and then recovery and do one more. The workout lasted 3 hours.

How did I feel. I had great legs and it was one of those chainless days. I rode in 98 gear inches. This was the first time I rode the 3 rd position in team sprint and it is hard. When the 2nd guy pulls up, the goal is to accelerate the pace and hold it to the finish for 250 meters. I was jacked up for at least 4 hours after finishing at 7PM and I slept okay but not great. I felt okay the next day but I was happy not to be on the bike.

I think in aggregate, Garmin got the training effect and recovery about right. But the performance factor was meh and no matter what the initial condition of the PF would have been, I was doing the workout.

I did a time trial bike endurance with some threshold workout and the performance factor jumped to 5 post warmup and 1/2 way through the first effort. It peaked at 6 and went back to 5. I had solid legs and Garmin got the training effect and post ride recovery about right.

I cannot match up PF and how my legs feel on any given workout.
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