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What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.

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What can the E-assist option bring for bicycle touring.

Old 07-10-16, 07:40 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
I know this may be a bit personal, but what kind of education do you have? To not understand my point, that one does "actually have to pedal" 70Km to go 100KM even if one uses ALL the assist available in the system?
What part of----> It's a MOTORBIKE don't you get!!!!

There is only one truly human powered vehicle in the WORLD it's the bicycle. It doesn't need a motor.

Please leave this sub-forum. Ride your electric vehicles with the rest of the motorized world.

Leave now!
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Old 07-10-16, 07:45 PM
  #27  
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BigAura, please allow us to do the modding. Thanks Mark
Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
What part of----> It's a MOTORBIKE don't you get!!!!

There is only one truly human powered vehicle in the WORLD it's the bicycle. It doesn't need a motor.

Please leave this sub-forum. Ride your electric vehicles with the rest of the motorized world.

Leave now!
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Old 07-10-16, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
What part of----> It's a MOTORBIKE don't you get!!!!

There is only one truly human powered vehicle in the WORLD it's the bicycle. It doesn't need a motor.

Please leave this sub-forum. Ride your electric vehicles with the rest of the motorized world.

Leave now!
No, I don't think so, having actually done tours with E-Assist bicycles, I believe I have more/or at least as much to contribute in this thread than you, or anyone else who never did a tour with an E-Assist bicycle...
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Old 07-10-16, 07:47 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Robert C View Post
For those who are not clear, this video shows what fake pedaling looks like.

https://youtu.be/C6Xe9M0VcaI
BS and you know it. It's motor-powered bicycle for motor-heads. Please leave this sub-forum and hang with the motor-heads.
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Old 07-10-16, 07:56 PM
  #30  
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Yeah, I don't get all the agro around this issue. I hope when the time comes the mods just lock out the one user instead of locking the thread.

In my neck of the woods cycling itself is such a marginalized activity that, for the most part I assume an inclusive, not exclusive philosophy. There is no sense of prestige surrounding cycling here so E assist bikes don't take anything away from my mojo.

That said, I hope there is more experimentation with E assist to make it a very viable solution for more people. In western Canada the one big problem I see is lack of charging stations between destination points. That goes for E cars too. We say we want to reduce dependence on fossil fuels but without solid dependable options that's just a pipe dream. The two prongs of attack seem to be development of E technology and investment in infrastructure. I think it would be awesome if Parks Canada developed a pilot E bike tour route, such as the Icefields Parkway between Jasper and Lake Louise to test the response. I fail to see how that would negatively affect me and only see it as a benefit via increased cyclist infrastructure.

One has to consider the alternatives. Traditionally, older people would retire and buy an RV to tour the country with but the modern Zoomer crowd is healthy and more willing to try new ideas. I would rather have it become a trend for them to tour on E bikes than coal rolling RV's. Better for them and better for me. I would rather commute to work with E bikes in a designated lane than on the road with the same distracted motorists checking their FB updates.

As long as the issues being discussed are relevant I don't see why E bike touring couldn't be discussed. In some ways I would probably have more in common with a traditional E bike tourer than an UL bike packer. We ride the same bikes, use the same equipment, tour the same routes etc... what do I care how hard their quads work relative to my own? I could argue the carbon fiber CC tourist is cheating somehow as well because they aren't pushing the same weight around except touring really isn't really a contest so that wouldn't make much sense.

If I met an E bike tourer on the road I'd be like: "cool, tell me about it". Beats the 100's of faceless nameless polluting truck and trailer/RV's that pass me each day.
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Old 07-10-16, 08:00 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
BS and you know it. It's motor-powered bicycle for motor-heads. Please leave this sub-forum and hang with the motor-heads.
I disagree.

Here is what the forum description says:

Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

It does not say anything about how the bicycle is powered.

What if someone wanted to tour on a trike? The forum says clearly says bicycle. So is a trike off topic? Some people might not think fully supported tours are really touring. Others might think that credit card touring is not touring. Or if you use public transportation as part of your tour then that is really not touring.

And then there is those that will tour 150+ miles a day. Is that touring or randonneuring? I relly don't consider it touring but others might.

Last edited by spinnaker; 07-10-16 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 07-10-16, 08:01 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by making View Post
BigAura, please allow us to do the modding. Thanks Mark
Sure. Sorry. Bye.
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Old 07-10-16, 08:11 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by spinnaker View Post
I disagree.

Here is what the forum description says:

Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

It does not say anything about how the bicycle is powered.

What if someone wanted to tour on a trike? The forum says clearly says bicycle. So is a trike off topic? Some people might not think fully supported tours are really touring. Others might think that credit card touring is not touring. Or if you use public transportation as part of your tour then that is really not touring.
I agree.
When I read threads I rarely think about how people are pedaling. My questions/curiosity revolve around issues I might have being self sufficient such as, where to camp, how to eat on route, how to pack and prepare for all conditions, what tools to take to handle a myriad of failures etc... Many of those same issues would face someone traditionally touring on an E bike as well (if the technology would support it). Compare that to a CC tourer. No camping, no cooking, no packing, no preparing for all conditions, no major repairs. In essence - no relating. The only commonality is that we both pedal a bike (to a greater or lesser extent) which is exactly the same thing with E bikes.
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Old 07-10-16, 08:22 PM
  #34  
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OK, Now that hopefully the bickering is done with as to whether E-Bike touring even belongs here in the touring setion, anyone with Q as to how E-Bike touring is different? How E-bike touring can be done? Why E-bike touring is workable? How E-bike touring is worthwhile? or any such Q? I have done 3 short tours without an E-Bike and 3 short tours with an E-bike so... At least I have some personal/actual experience.

Last edited by 350htrr; 07-10-16 at 08:27 PM. Reason: add stuff
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Old 07-10-16, 08:26 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
If I met an E bike tourer on the road I'd be like: "cool, tell me about it". Beats the 100's of faceless nameless polluting truck and trailer/RV's that pass me each day.
100% of the in person reaction to the solar e-bike project has been positive.

Yes, I see the solar e-bike as being close to cycle touring than to other means of touring. That is based on equipment, speed, and, dare I say it, personal effort. I have been doing goofy things like pulling boxes on a trailer, behind my e-bike , to get an estimate of power draw.

No, as 350htrr is quick to point out, it isn't actually on the road yet. However, I do not see building a bike for touring as being off topic for touring.

In another forum a guy has built something similar to my project (it is in the pictures I posted). One thing he has mentioned is that with the solar panels he has been able to reduce his battery to nearly half what they were before. He has some pictures of a 250mi test ride with an overnight at an impromptu campsite.

This allowed him to test the overnight, for touring, and at 250mi on 10Ah he was able to be sure he was running entirely on Solar.

Like I said, my project hold is that I want to be able to involve a few of the students in it. Also, the parts, and the trike, are in the city I teach in, during the summer I am in the city I live in (and they are separated by about 900mi).

I keep hearing "clouds" from my father. I hope the battery (and pedaling, of course) will pull me through those sections. If not, I can camp for a day.
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Old 07-10-16, 08:44 PM
  #36  
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I'd think you'd have problems with a sail effect in any sort of wind. Is that an issue?
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Old 07-10-16, 08:48 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I'd think you'd have problems with a sail effect in any sort of wind. Is that an issue?
That is part of the reason that he ended up building his quite low. I am taking advantage of his experiences and building mine as low as practical too.
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Old 07-10-16, 09:46 PM
  #38  
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Glad to see this one is off to a roaring start. If you don't like them and don't want to discuss them, why even click on the thread?

I saw quite a few ebikes touring the Netherlands and Belgium when I was there. For those legitimately wondering, most everywhere I stopped for the evening that catered to cyclists (and most others that didn't specifically welcome cyclists) had charging outlets, usually cost a euro or two a night to use them. In fact, Vrinden op de Fiets, a low cost Dutch guesthouse network set up specifically for cycle and hiking tourists (nobody but cycles or hikers can use it), specifies right in the listings if charging is available, they are prevalent enough.

At the end of the day, I'd far rather sit down and spend an evening with those folks, than those here so upset by what others ride. They were far more concerned about being out enjoying their lives than the fact what they were doing didn't appeal to others in such an upsetting manner.

I can see the appeal, I have no problems with others choosing what works best for them, I don't judge even if they are young and healthy, even if they aren't for me. My first and last two cents on this thread.

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Old 07-10-16, 10:50 PM
  #39  
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A friend has an e-bike that busted a rear spoke after 600 km, the shop has to back-order a spoke from Germany. Many e-bike companies are obscure names; on tours one wonders about reliability & availability of parts. E-bike I mention has 28" wheels/44 mm-wide tires (plus front shock) so it rolls comfy; not sure if those size tires available at avg bike shop. OTOH for tourists w/some money to burn experimenting with e-bikes could be fun: get over big hills w/o grueling effort or else speed thru boring flat parts.
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Old 07-10-16, 11:38 PM
  #40  
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I'm interested in the solar part as well partly because I am buying a portable backpacking unit for a trip to see how it performs so I'm learning about that stuff. The idea of a self supported cross country tour would be cool (pun, because stuff from the sun is hot) and quite interesting in areas like Arizona or Australia where you have large distances and lots of sun from a predictable direction. The panels would provide shade and energy.

I think someone just did an around the world using solar powered flight and there is a lot of experimentation in sailing/boating. I attended a boat show where they had flexible panels that could be molded to hulls and perhaps down the road a similar idea could be used for fairings. Imagine something like this made out of flexible solar panels on a trike recumbent:

https://www.lightningbikes.com/f40/

And some inspiration:


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Old 07-11-16, 02:21 AM
  #41  
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I'm quite liberal on this subject. If touring on an E-assist E-bike is your thing then fine, I'll just stick to cycle touring.
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Old 07-11-16, 05:07 AM
  #42  
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Old 07-11-16, 06:22 AM
  #43  
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The solar panel option could make e-assist use much more viable on more remote tours. However current batteries are so light and compact that it's easily within reason to carry an extra and also they can be charged from a usual wall socket. I've no idea how long it takes to fully charge though.
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Old 07-11-16, 07:56 AM
  #44  
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The TdF coverage keeps mentioning a device to detect whether riders are using an electric motor. I don't think bike racing would be the same if they started using motors. Doping falls in the same category. I feel the same way about bike touring. Reducing weight by packing lighter is legit. Using a credit card for food and lodging, or going fully supported, to overcome the physical demands is starting down the slippery slope. An electric motor takes the rider partially or completely out of the equation, and you are no longer truly bike touring. Would you consider a "fully supported leg-assist motor bike, eating at restaurants, staying in hotels" trip to be bike touring? Call it what you want, but I don't consider it bike touring.

I'll report back how many touring folks using leg-assist motor bikes I come across in Switzerland on my upcoming trip. I'm going to guess zero.
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Old 07-11-16, 08:53 AM
  #45  
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If I were touring on a LHT fully loaded but blood doping would you say I was not touring? You might say you do not see the point in doing it yourself (valid) but who is to say what is "legit" or not? Those sort of rules exist in the TdF because it is a competition in which the field is supposed to be level so physical prowess is the determining factor while bicycle touring is just an amorphous marginal hobby or a mode of holiday transportation for most. I see the distinction between loaded vs CC/supported touring to be greater than manual vs power assist loaded touring as far as discussion points on a forum goes.

I have a pretty good conventional touring set up compared to a young guy setting out on a department store bike with a packsack full of gear so could he say I was not "really touring"? I am, after all, using equipment to increase the ease and comfort of travel just as my granny gear helps more than a double. Could I say the guy using a sub 20lb CF road bike is not really touring because I tough it out with a 30lb bike? His choice of equipment does give him an advantage over me...

except neither has an advantage because we are not competing with each other. We are separate entities doing our own thing.

I remember a discussion about what toolset to bring on tour and one CC member suggesting none at all. If they had a failure (rare in their books) they would just call a cab on their cell phone. Valid from their perspective but of no practical purpose for someone doing a self supported tour. Someone on an E bike doing a self supported tour may have a few different tools but, in general, will face the same decision making challenges a person doing a manual self supported tour would. Even more so with kitchen and sleeping decisions.

I would encourage anyone willing to invest in self supported E bike touring as an exploration of adaptation of technology. It hurts no one and could open a new avenue of pollution free, low impact travel for those who might otherwise only choose fossil fuel alternatives. Where else will they learn/discuss how to adapt their form of bicycle to touring mode other than on a bicycle touring forum.

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Old 07-11-16, 09:02 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
The solar panel option could make e-assist use much more viable on more remote tours. However current batteries are so light and compact that it's easily within reason to carry an extra and also they can be charged from a usual wall socket. I've no idea how long it takes to fully charge though.
Me neither - which is why I suggested in posts no. 4 & 7 that you post these e-bike comments/questions in the ebike forum, because there are probably a dozen guys there who would quickly answer that question in a fairly accurate manner.
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Old 07-11-16, 09:05 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
If I were touring on a LHT fully loaded but blood doping would you say I was not touring? You might say you do not see the point in doing it yourself (valid) but who is to say what is "legit" or not? Those sort of rules exist in the TdF because it is a competition in which the field is supposed to be level so physical prowess is the determining factor while bicycle touring is just an amorphous marginal hobby or a mode of holiday transportation for most. I see the distinction between loaded vs CC/supported touring to be greater than manual vs power assist loaded touring as far as discussion points on a forum goes.

I have a pretty good conventional touring set up compared to a young guy setting out on a department store bike with a packsack full of gear so could he say I was not "really touring"? I am, after all, using equipment to increase the ease and comfort of travel just as my granny gear helps more than a double. Could I say the guy using a sub 20lb CF road bike is not really touring because I tough it out with a 30lb bike? His choice of equipment does give him an advantage over me...

except neither has an advantage because we are not competing with each other. We are separate entities doing our own thing.

I remember a discussion about what toolset to bring on tour and one CC member suggesting none at all. If they had a failure (rare in their books) they would just call a cab on their cell phone. Valid from their perspective but of no practical purpose for someone doing a self supported tour. Someone on an E bike doing a self supported tour may have a few different tools but, in general, will face the same decision making challenges a person doing a manual self supported tour would. Even more so with kitchen and sleeping decisions.

I would encourage anyone willing to invest in self supported E bike touring as an exploration of adaptation of technology. It hurts no one and could open a new avenue of pollution free, low impact travel for those who might otherwise only choose fossil fuel alternatives.
The TdF is a bicycle race. That's why they don't allow doping or motors. It's not a technology race to see who can create the most effective drugs or the most powerful or efficient motors. There are limits to everything, and adding an electric motor to a bicycle, whatever you end up calling the machine, means it is no longer a bicycle. Therefore, someone riding such a machine is not engaged in bicycle touring. Perhaps there needs to be a new definition for that activity, and I'll leave it up to those who do it to come up with something. Just don't call it bike touring.
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Old 07-11-16, 10:05 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
I would encourage anyone willing to invest in self supported E bike touring as an exploration of adaptation of technology. It hurts no one and could open a new avenue of pollution free, low impact travel for those who might otherwise only choose fossil fuel alternatives. Where else will they learn/discuss how to adapt their form of bicycle to touring mode other than on a bicycle touring forum.
"It hurts no one" - right, the internet and electronic video games hurt no one, except for the hundreds of millions of children, teenagers and adults who now spend all their leisure time indoors in the air conditioning, only 10 steps away from the refrigerator and microwave oven, basically sitting on their asses and overeating their whole lives. Kids hardly go out to play anymore, grownups never leave their computers or TVs. In this same fashion, ebikes will divert a significant portion of conventional bicycle users to the effortless alternative.

"pollution free" - electricity does not originate from that plug in the wall. It must be generated by hydroelectric, nuclear, fossil fuel, wind, solar or geothermal. In USA, 67% of electricity is generated by the burning of coal, natural gas or petroleum. The generation of this electricity from fossil fuels directly results in 30% of total carbon emissions in the USA. This trend will continue for the foreseeable future due to the vast reserves of natural gas produced from hydrofracking, whose proponents insist doesn't significantly impact drinking water quality:


So ebikes - what harm could they do?
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Old 07-11-16, 10:27 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by alan s View Post
The TdF is a bicycle race. That's why they don't allow doping or motors. It's not a technology race to see who can create the most effective drugs or the most powerful or efficient motors. There are limits to everything, and adding an electric motor to a bicycle, whatever you end up calling the machine, means it is no longer a bicycle. Therefore, someone riding such a machine is not engaged in bicycle touring. Perhaps there needs to be a new definition for that activity, and I'll leave it up to those who do it to come up with something. Just don't call it bike touring.
You want a definition on what I think "real" bicycle and "real" touring is?

Lets start with what is a real human powered bicycle...

1; It's a bicycle that doesn't have mechanical advantage/assistance to make it up bigger hills easing the effort required by the rider, a single speed. A real bicycle, you know the one where there is a HUGE wheel up front and a little itsy bitsy one on the back...

2; Next, A fixie it's that simple, tho even that has a mechanical advantage but I will let it slide...

Then you start to get into the assistance part whether it's the mechanical advantage allows for easier travels and also faster as does the E-Assist...

3; A 3 speed would qualify in my book, that is where the rider is getting assistance from the gearing that gives the rider an ADVANTAGE over a fixie...

4; Then along comes the 10 speed, an even bigger advantage over the 3 speed because of the mechanical assistance is greater.

5; Then we fast forward to today and everyone basically rides a 27 speed and that is the standard that everything is judged by today... TOTALY ignoring the fact that if you really want to do your tour totally un-assisted (mechanically or electrically) and tell others the tale of how you conquered those mountains, you must ride a fixie or you are cheating as compared to if you did the same thing with a fixie (the only "real" un-assisted) bicycle.... and, if you want to brag, do it on a unicycle, that will put hair on your chest that people would envy...

That is how I see it anyways... And yes an E-Assist is a greater and different type of assist, but a mechanical advantage is also an assist, even tho some people don't seem to recognize it as such...

To keep on the topic of touring, yes it's touring, even on an E-Assist bicycle, and will/would/does allow more people to do "touring". IMO

Last edited by 350htrr; 07-11-16 at 10:53 AM. Reason: add stuff
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Old 07-11-16, 10:35 AM
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Robert C
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Someone on an E bike doing a self supported tour may have a few different tools but, in general, will face the same decision making challenges a person doing a manual self supported tour would. Even more so with kitchen and sleeping decisions.
Based on my reading of the e-bike tours others have made, I see myself needing to add: solder, a gas soldering iron, black tape.

As far as other touring things, as much as people are mocking the video review of the tent that was recently made, it seems a good deal. One of my big concerns is what people are doing for water through the American desert.
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