Vexxer

Im on the lower end of Clydes, about 220. I am about to upgrade the wheels on my roadbike, but I am not sure about spoke count. The wheels I'm looking at have no weight limit, but they are 20/24 spokes, which from what I can tell, I am right at the weight limit for from most manufacturers. I really want lighter wheels (on a budget, so no carbon), but everything with more spokes weight the same as my current stock wheels, so they would be pointless. Suggestions?

chaadster

In my experience, it's not simply "spoke count" which is the concern. Select a wheel system which is well designed and built. Things like hub flange spacing, bracing angle, spoke width, spoke type, lacing pattern, rim height and width, are what I look at to gauge performance and suitability.

Specifically, I'd suggest taking a hard look at American Classic Argent. I've been running them for 3 years as a 220-225lber and have been absoluty thrilled by their performance and sub-1400gm weight. I've crit raced them, crashed them, and hit the 60mph mark on these tubeless wonders, and aside from some adjustment after the first crash, they've been flawless and fast. For an aggressive rider with some finesse in their riding style, I heartily recommend them. The old '15 graphic design are on sale from AC right now for $999, down from $1500 regular.

DiscTruckerMF

i'll tell you the problem you will have with a 24 spoke rear wheel. ITs not so much whether it's strong enough, we are talking about a road bike, as long as you arnent jumping curbs and such you will be fine. The problem is the wheel won't be stiff enough and under hard sprinting or climbing steep hills the amount of power you put out will make the rim deflect enough to rub on your brakes. I have this exact problem with a set of carbon wheels that I bought. great wheels, super light, you can definately feel how easy they accelerate, but I always had to ride with the brake quick release flipped open. last but not least, the weight savings on wheels doesn't come from spokes. spokes don't weight a whole lot, saving 8 -12 spokes isn't a big deal. Light wheels come from very light hubs (which many people will tell you since thats not rotating on the OUTSIDE of the wheel it doesn't matter that much, and lighter rims. Check out bikehubstore for light rims and hubs and just build them with 28 front 32 rear but understand there will be some risk of failure if you go with too light of a rim at your weight.

chaadster

I would question whether that's what's actually going on, and suggest the reality is exactly the opposite: you've a very stiff rim which isn't flexing at all.

When you look at the mechanics of it, there is no way to flex the top of the wheel at the brakes, as there is no force there. Force is at the road, and through the frame at the hub; if there is any wheel deflection going on, it's in the bottom half of the wheel.

So a stiff wheel and frame flex would explain brake rub as you describe, but not spoke induced lateral flex.

Even if I'm wrong (which I doubt) there's the problem of saying the OP will certainly have that problem when many do not. I ride 18/20 and two 18/24 wheelsets without that problem.

EDIT: here's a link to Slowtwitch discussing what I was trying to express: https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debun...ness_3449.html

sstorkel

What wheels are you currently riding? I'm 40-50 pounds lighter than you and I use 24/28-spoke wheel sets. At around 1600g/set (claimed) they're 200+g heavier than the lightest 16/20-spoke tubular climbing wheels... but I've yet to notice that difference. If you're at the level of riding where a couple hundred grams are going to make a difference, your sponsors should be providing you with the equipment necessary to get the job done.

JohnJ80

I'm about the same as you. I had a set of Easton carbon rims that I constantly was breaking spokes on. Went to Enve's with 20/24 and have no problems with about 4000 miles on them. The rim and design matters.

If you want to get non carbon light wheels, get a set of made by Excel Sports with DT240 hubs, Aerolite spokes in a 28/28 pattern laced to a HED Belgium C2 rim. Get them made with tubular rims and use something like the Tufo or Clements tubeless tubular tires with tape to hold the tires to the rim. That set up will get you within spitting distance (or closer) of a nice carbon clincher wheel set and you will not have problems at all. This is a tough wheels set that rolls really well and should come in at about 1443g for the wheels. I've ridden these things through just about everything, up and down mountains, on dirt, and abuse the heck out of them and they take it with zero complaints.

The tubulars with tape and sealant will dramatically reduce the flats you get. The last three tires I've had on the bike wore out and never flatted. So you save time, weight and money plus you don't have to go carbon.

J.

TrojanHorse

I have some Easton EA90SL wheels (20x24) that I've been happy with (same weight as you). No flexing or breaking issues so far. For my own peace of mind I'd prefer that they stuck with their old 24x28 spoke count. I have some reynolds carbon wheels that are 20x24 as well. I think rims are so much stronger than they were 20 years ago that the old "you need 36 spokes" rule of thumb is largely gone by the wayside.

bigfred 

I've been absent from the forum for a long while.

Before I could provide any thoughts about your situation, I would need a little bit more background.

1. What are the current wheels that you would like to upgrade from?
2. How do you use your bike and what are your expectations?
3. Which wheels are you currently considering?
4. Is your weight and/or usage likely to change?

Heathpack 

Hi Fred!!!

bigfred 

Hello there Ms Speedster.

Jarrett2

Welcome back, Fred!

DiscTruckerMF

Thanks for the link, that is a great explanation of it, though I think it more or less is in line with what I said in my first post and I think you have misinterpreted it slightly. With only 24 spokes and a lot of power, that wheel wont be stiff enough. I did say "wheel" not rim. The article does a great job of explaining it in science terms and does state that more spokes will solve the problem. The wheel does stay straight on the road surface but they show that it does in fact deflect at the top of the wheel where the brakes are.

"When you start climbing or sprinting on a carbon wheel, the stiff rim tends to want to stay perfectly straight – relative to itself.

This gets compounded by the fact that most “race” wheels have thin aerodynamic spokes – AND not very many of them. On top of that, in very recent years, we have also seen carbon rims grow in both width and depth – subsequently gaining both lateral and radial stiffness.

What this adds up to is the perfect wheel storm: An astoundingly stiff, deep-section carbon rim – strapped on to a handful of thin aero spokes. The stiff rim can literally overpower the spokes. If your rim rubs your rear brake pads, this is probably why."

chaadster

I suppose my point was that it is not simply a matter of a "24 spoke wheel", and that when designed, built, and used in the proper application, a 24 spoke wheel can be fine.

As I said previously, looking simply at spoke count does not reveal much about wheel performance.

DiscTruckerMF

i can agree with that. but we all know that generally a 24 spoke rim isn't going to be a good idea for us big guys. not to say it can't work but generally, the average 24 spoke wheel is not catered to our uses. not to say that one couldn't be.

chaadster

I really don't feel I have the depth of experience to say whether that's true or not, so I can only say my personal experience, which goes back to a pair of paired-spoke Bontrager Selects in '01, has been very good with regard to low spoke count wheels.

Further, the very worst wheels in all my years of cycling were high count, 32 or 36 spoke wheels (I forget now) which came stock on my '88 Diamondback Master TG. They were probably among the lowest quality I've owned, so while I don't serve that up as a condemnation of all 36 spoke wheels, it does, in my mind, underscore the truth in understanding that the number of spokes is no guarantee of anything.

Currently, my least reliable (i.e. most prone to loosening, pinging, and coming out of true) is a pair of Performance Bike built, 32h Velocity A23s laced to Powertap hubs. My relatively inexpensive '12 Mavic Ksyrium Equipe WTS wheels with 24h rear, remain impeccable.

So I just think it all depends on the system-- rims, spokes, hub, lacing-- and build quality.

sstorkel

Agree with this completely. At 220 pounds, there should be plenty of 24-spoke wheel builds that could be perfectly adequate for the OP. Heck, at that weight I was riding on a set of ultra-cheap 16/20-spoke wheels and never had a problem with them. Sure, they weren't as stiff as a wheel with more spokes but I wasn't putting out enough power to make them flex appreciably.

GerryinHouston

My wife's bike had a A23 rim. A POS. I changed it with a Wheelmaster 36h wheel with ZAC19 rims and I haven't seen any problems.

The most important thing for us Clydes is a wheel that is true with proper, or at least adequate, tension. Then, in general terms, the more (and thicker) spokes, the better.

It is a spoke fatigue issue. The spokes will break with few fatigue cycles, if the spoke goes from tension to compression. The fewer the spokes, the larger the load a spoke will have to take and it may go to compression. Having (many) neighbors helps distribute the load.

Some counterintuitive facts:

Having an inexpensive rim may help, as it may have thicker (cheap) spokes. I got a front wheel with 2.6 mm spokes. That thing is unlikely to break any spokes once I set proper spoke tension!

Low spoke number may help, since it means (usually, not an across the board fact) that it has good materials and was tuned by somebody that knew what he was doing. At least I would expect if I ever bought a $1000 wheelset to have been tuned by somebody who knew what he was doing.

My experience to-date with LBS wrenches, is that they try to set the dish in the rear with the minimum tensions, because they are afraid that they may taco the wheel by overtightening the Drive Side. As a result, I had these guys measure tensions estimated (because the reading was below the Park Tools table) at 30 kg! I weigh 115kg... Assuming that 3 spokes take the major load, the NDS will go to compression every revolution and the spokes will fatigue. Since I got the tension approximately 105/65, I haven't had any broken spokes in 1500 mi.

Of course, you mileage may vary...

DiscTruckerMF

Mavic wheels are a whole different animal because their wheelsets are all very proprietary and generally do hold up quite well. If we are talking off the shelf rims and spokes and building up a wheel then the quality of the build is definately ever bit if not more important than spoke count. A cheap set of machine built 36 spoke wheels don't stand a chance. But generally speaking adding more spokes does help make up somewhat for a lower quality build.

Last but not least, you may have great success on a 24 spoke rim but if you ever do break a spoke, good luck getting home. On a 32 or 36 spoke wheel, you can usually tighten the adjacent spokes enough to keep the wheel true enough to ride it home or to safety. I was out with a light weight friend on a 24 spoke rear wheel and when he broke 1 spoke, that was enough to make the rim jam up against the brakes. I've had it happen to me on a 32 spoke wheel and it was still rideable.

Willbird

Seems that the disk brake fad has pushed spoke counts up, lowest count disk brake hubs I see are usually 32h.

really I think most folks, many folks anyway could buy all the stuff from Bike Hub Store and build up their own wheels, I built a rear wheel for my Sportif due to getting an open box SRAM disk brake hub cheap on an Amazon open box deal.....was looking into buying a set of hubs and saw SRAM sealed bearing hub for $15 open box warehouse deal....*CLICK* :-). I just took my time building it and had an older LBS guy do the final true.....I had built it purely on equal tension using Park tensionmeter....it needed just 1/4 turn on a few spokes to be perfect.

but building your wheels puts you way more prepared (and you have the tools)to keep an eye on other wheels too and notice and fix issues BEFORE you break spokes :-).

But my point on spoke count......nobody is dying because they are running 32h wheels :-)