If your weight doesn't activate the green light, do you still go?
03-13-22, 01:10 PM
#51
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Shouldn't that be "treat it like a 2-way stop"? The problem is that the perpendicular traffic isn't treating it as a 4-way stop.
Failsafe mode is a flashing red light in all directions, which makes treating it like a 4-way stop more straightforward (both in terms of legality and safety).
03-13-22, 01:17 PM
#52
Pedalin' Erry Day
Shouldn't that be "treat it like a 2-way stop"? The problem is that the perpendicular traffic isn't treating it as a 4-way stop.
Failsafe mode is a flashing red light in all directions, which makes treating it like a 4-way stop more straightforward (both in terms of legality and safety).
Failsafe mode is a flashing red light in all directions, which makes treating it like a 4-way stop more straightforward (both in terms of legality and safety).
03-13-22, 01:27 PM
#53
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I understood your intent, and wasn't trying to be difficult.
Let me re-phrase my worry as a worst-case scenario.
Someone encounters this problem at a 4-way junction with a traffic signal. The signal is unresponsive to the presence of the rider, and just to make it simple, there are no "beg buttons."
The rider stops, waits, looks for oncoming traffic, sees that it is safe, and proceeds. Somehow, a car that has the direction of the green light arrives at the intersection, collides with our cyclist, and kills the cyclist crossing against the light.
If it was a 4-way stop, or a signal on failsafe, the family of the dead cyclist might recover something in an insurance settlement, but in this case, legally, the auto driver did nothing wrong, and the cyclist broke the law by going through a red light.
I understand that this is extreme, and unlikely, but it is just pointing out that the cyclist is assuming all risk, liability and forfeiting any legal protection by treating it like a 4-way stop. (Treating it as a 2-way stop isn't any better, but it does emphasize that there should be no expectation that the perpendicular traffic has any constraints.)
Let me re-phrase my worry as a worst-case scenario.
Someone encounters this problem at a 4-way junction with a traffic signal. The signal is unresponsive to the presence of the rider, and just to make it simple, there are no "beg buttons."
The rider stops, waits, looks for oncoming traffic, sees that it is safe, and proceeds. Somehow, a car that has the direction of the green light arrives at the intersection, collides with our cyclist, and kills the cyclist crossing against the light.
If it was a 4-way stop, or a signal on failsafe, the family of the dead cyclist might recover something in an insurance settlement, but in this case, legally, the auto driver did nothing wrong, and the cyclist broke the law by going through a red light.
I understand that this is extreme, and unlikely, but it is just pointing out that the cyclist is assuming all risk, liability and forfeiting any legal protection by treating it like a 4-way stop. (Treating it as a 2-way stop isn't any better, but it does emphasize that there should be no expectation that the perpendicular traffic has any constraints.)
Last edited by Polaris OBark; 03-13-22 at 01:40 PM. Reason: clarity
03-14-22, 01:00 AM
#54
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I understood your intent, and wasn't trying to be difficult.
Let me re-phrase my worry as a worst-case scenario.
Someone encounters this problem at a 4-way junction with a traffic signal. The signal is unresponsive to the presence of the rider, and just to make it simple, there are no "beg buttons."
The rider stops, waits, looks for oncoming traffic, sees that it is safe, and proceeds. Somehow, a car that has the direction of the green light arrives at the intersection, collides with our cyclist, and kills the cyclist crossing against the light.
If it was a 4-way stop, or a signal on failsafe, the family of the dead cyclist might recover something in an insurance settlement, but in this case, legally, the auto driver did nothing wrong, and the cyclist broke the law by going through a red light.
I understand that this is extreme, and unlikely, but it is just pointing out that the cyclist is assuming all risk, liability and forfeiting any legal protection by treating it like a 4-way stop. (Treating it as a 2-way stop isn't any better, but it does emphasize that there should be no expectation that the perpendicular traffic has any constraints.)
Let me re-phrase my worry as a worst-case scenario.
Someone encounters this problem at a 4-way junction with a traffic signal. The signal is unresponsive to the presence of the rider, and just to make it simple, there are no "beg buttons."
The rider stops, waits, looks for oncoming traffic, sees that it is safe, and proceeds. Somehow, a car that has the direction of the green light arrives at the intersection, collides with our cyclist, and kills the cyclist crossing against the light.
If it was a 4-way stop, or a signal on failsafe, the family of the dead cyclist might recover something in an insurance settlement, but in this case, legally, the auto driver did nothing wrong, and the cyclist broke the law by going through a red light.
I understand that this is extreme, and unlikely, but it is just pointing out that the cyclist is assuming all risk, liability and forfeiting any legal protection by treating it like a 4-way stop. (Treating it as a 2-way stop isn't any better, but it does emphasize that there should be no expectation that the perpendicular traffic has any constraints.)
03-15-22, 07:55 AM
#55
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I wrote "4-way" to be maximally inclusive of all possibilities - the point is to come to a stop, observe what other traffic coming up to the intersection is doing, and then go when it's safe to do so. Obviously if there's cross traffic that has a green light then it's not safe to run the red...
…shall have the right to proceed, after yielding the right of way to oncoming traffic facing a green signal…
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03-19-22, 10:37 AM
#56
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In my state (PA), the rule is as follows:
- A bicycle or motor vehicle may, with good caution, treat an intersection with an inoperable or malfunctioning traffic signal as a stop condition when red or as a caution condition when green or yellow.
- Often signals with embedded detectors will not respond to the bike awaiting a green light, and this is treated as “inoperable” under law.
- Often signals with embedded detectors will not respond to the bike awaiting a green light, and this is treated as “inoperable” under law.
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03-19-22, 11:15 AM
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See the "Note" on page 9 here: Rules of the Road. 
EDIT: It doesn't say in the RotR, but IIRC the law does not apply in municipalities with a population greater than 2 millions. Why the population should make a difference is not clear to me... unless the lawmakers specifically wanted to exclude Chicago!
EDIT: It doesn't say in the RotR, but IIRC the law does not apply in municipalities with a population greater than 2 millions. Why the population should make a difference is not clear to me... unless the lawmakers specifically wanted to exclude Chicago!
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03-19-22, 01:45 PM
#58
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The next question would be "what's so special about Chicago?" 
The answer probably contains "politics", because I don't see how there could be any *practical* difference between intersections in large vs small municipalities.
The answer probably contains "politics", because I don't see how there could be any *practical* difference between intersections in large vs small municipalities.
03-19-22, 01:47 PM
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I like this better than the Illinois law with its ridiculous "120 seconds" clause.
03-20-22, 12:56 AM
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It's important to note, however, that this DOES NOT mean you can treat any red light as a stop sign — it must be malfunctioning. The specific law is silent on how long a motorist must be sitting at a red light before it's considered to be malfunctioning, but PennDOT and the Pennsylvania State Police encourage you to use common sense. The signal has to obviously be malfunctioning, either totally dark or frozen in the red mode (or go through several cycles without giving you a green light).
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03-20-22, 09:22 AM
#61
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[[ Diversion warning ]]
When I ride, I have to go through a gate with a dipole detector loop. If I position my bike correctly, it opens every time. When I substitute my aluminum rims for carbon rims, I cannot get the gate to open, no matter how hard I try (until I press a manual over-ride button).
Does this mean that it is the aluminum in my rims that is causing the induction that is detected? I had always assumed it had to be ferromagnetic, but I guess this means that assumption must be incorrect.
When I ride, I have to go through a gate with a dipole detector loop. If I position my bike correctly, it opens every time. When I substitute my aluminum rims for carbon rims, I cannot get the gate to open, no matter how hard I try (until I press a manual over-ride button).
Does this mean that it is the aluminum in my rims that is causing the induction that is detected? I had always assumed it had to be ferromagnetic, but I guess this means that assumption must be incorrect.
03-21-22, 07:44 AM
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Maybe so. I don't wait 120 seconds anyway. If there's no cross-traffic I'll just proceed. However, if there are cars waiting in my direction (or opposing), I will wait since the light will soon change and I don't want to irritate the drivers.
It would surprise me exceedingly if the police reacted to my trivial offense; there is literally zero enforcement of bicycle traffic laws around these parts (Chicago area) as far as I can tell.
EDIT: I see what you mean about the PA law. I can imagine a back-up of drivers who have concluded that the light is malfunctioning while the geezer (me) at the front of the line is still working it out!
It would surprise me exceedingly if the police reacted to my trivial offense; there is literally zero enforcement of bicycle traffic laws around these parts (Chicago area) as far as I can tell.
EDIT: I see what you mean about the PA law. I can imagine a back-up of drivers who have concluded that the light is malfunctioning while the geezer (me) at the front of the line is still working it out!
Last edited by sweeks; 03-21-22 at 07:48 AM.
04-27-22, 07:36 AM
#63
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Georgia TRIED to pass a similar law some years back - a so-called "Dead Red" law - but with a "reasonable belief" rather than specific time limit. Senate Bill 76 of 2015 passed the legislature but was vetoed by then-Gov Nathan Deal because SB76 also contained some additional things related to motorcycles that he objected to. SB76 read, in part...
If a driver has stopped pursuant to the instructions of a traffic-control device and has a reasonable belief that the traffic-control device or signal is inoperative due to the lightweight design of his or her motorcycle or bicycle, the driver may disregard or disobey the instructions of the traffic-control device or signal and proceed through the intersection, provided that:
(A) There is no other motor vehicle within 500 feet approaching or entering the same intersection from a different highway, or from the same highway approaching or entering the intersection from the opposite direction; and
(B) The driver cautiously proceeds through the intersection with reasonable care and consideration for all other applicable rules of the road.
I think it would have been a great law, and perhaps even a "model" for other states as well. I think I might write a letter to to my local state legislator asking for it to be re-introduced, perhaps even start on on-line petition if I can figure out how to do that.
(B) The driver cautiously proceeds through the intersection with reasonable care and consideration for all other applicable rules of the road.
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04-27-22, 08:08 PM
#64
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Since the conversation in the thread seems to have moved to the discussion of traffic law, I can say from personal experience as a daily bike commuter that what's commonly known as the Idaho stop law surely is nice if you are in a state that has adopted it as law.
04-28-22, 08:55 AM
#65
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I don't think it's illegal but if I'm in the left turn lane waiting, I just walk my bike over to the sidewalk and press the button.
04-29-22, 09:54 AM
#66
Newbie
Interesting. Here in Toronto it is a mixed bag. A lot of folks won't dare sit in the left turn lane - they'll just go to the sidewalk and press the button. North of Toronto, we have designated bike stops at intersections, they have special names for them.
Overall, safety comes first and if a cop ever pulls me over, I am just going to tell them that it's safer for me to press the button on the sidewalk than it is for me to be in the left turn lane with cars blowing through red lights. They can give me another ticket a few blocks down but I'm not risking my life because of someone's inability to drive properly.
Overall, safety comes first and if a cop ever pulls me over, I am just going to tell them that it's safer for me to press the button on the sidewalk than it is for me to be in the left turn lane with cars blowing through red lights. They can give me another ticket a few blocks down but I'm not risking my life because of someone's inability to drive properly.
06-27-22, 05:53 PM
#67
Newbie
I have a left turn light on my commute at the rural/urban interface. If nothing is around, then I might just ignore the light. But, I frequently find myself stopped. Electronic sensor that doesn't like my bike.
I usually scoot forward, then wave at the car behind me to come forward, and point to a place just behind my rear tire. Some understand what I want.
A lot of the urban left turns I encounter have been changed to flashing yellow light, and I definitely go when clear and safe.
Somehow I've lost patience for "Dead Reds".
I usually scoot forward, then wave at the car behind me to come forward, and point to a place just behind my rear tire. Some understand what I want.
A lot of the urban left turns I encounter have been changed to flashing yellow light, and I definitely go when clear and safe.
Somehow I've lost patience for "Dead Reds".
06-27-22, 07:31 PM
#68
Full Member
It was Michael Faraday that first demonstrated the induction loop around 1831. Tesla wasn't even born until 1856.
In my state, and many others, according to the statutes, if a bicycle does not activate the signal after two cycles, it may proceed.
According to this document: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publication...r%20inductance.
The bicycle's best chance of triggering the reduction in loop inductance is for the wheels or frame to be directly over the wire. For a vehicle with a horizontal plane (car or truck), centered on the perimeter of the wire is better. Note that it is the electrical conductivity of the bicycle's wheels or frame that allow an eddy current to flow through them, thus generating a magnetic field that opposes the field in the loop. It is not the mass of the bicycle nor the ferrous-metal content of the object over or in the loop that actuates the signal. It is totally possible to actuate the system with aluminum rims and frames (theoretically they should actuate it better than steel). While carbon fiber is conductive, it is much less so than aluminum and carbon wheels plus a carbon frame may frequently fail to actuate the signal.
In my state, and many others, according to the statutes, if a bicycle does not activate the signal after two cycles, it may proceed.
According to this document: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publication...r%20inductance.
The bicycle's best chance of triggering the reduction in loop inductance is for the wheels or frame to be directly over the wire. For a vehicle with a horizontal plane (car or truck), centered on the perimeter of the wire is better. Note that it is the electrical conductivity of the bicycle's wheels or frame that allow an eddy current to flow through them, thus generating a magnetic field that opposes the field in the loop. It is not the mass of the bicycle nor the ferrous-metal content of the object over or in the loop that actuates the signal. It is totally possible to actuate the system with aluminum rims and frames (theoretically they should actuate it better than steel). While carbon fiber is conductive, it is much less so than aluminum and carbon wheels plus a carbon frame may frequently fail to actuate the signal.
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