Living car free, 5 year predictions
#1578
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
It would help to have a 'split thread' option, like the 'start new thread' option, but you could select it as part of responding to post within a thread. Idk if I should predict such a technological leap will happen at BF or in internet discussion generally in the next five years, though. It is, after all, a very advanced concept in interactive online discussion.
#1579
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,811
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,018 Times
in
571 Posts
If you know anything about bicycling and basic physics, there is no doubt to give this daft idea the benefit of. This idea is a fail. It won't work this year and it won't work in five years. Some ideas are bad. That they involve bicycles doesn't make them worthy of serious consideration.
#1580
Prefers Cicero
Thread Starter
It would help to have a 'split thread' option, like the 'start new thread' option, but you could select it as part of responding to post within a thread. Idk if I should predict such a technological leap will happen at BF or in internet discussion generally in the next five years, though. It is, after all, a very advanced concept in interactive online discussion.
#1581
Prefers Cicero
Thread Starter
Also you realize, I hope that self-driving cars, amazing as they are, cannot create human babies, right? So that means the advent (potential) of widespread use of self-driving cars will not increase the number of people on the road ... so it will not increase the number of cars.
#1582
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
If you know anything about bicycling and basic physics, there is no doubt to give this daft idea the benefit of. This idea is a fail. It won't work this year and it won't work in five years. Some ideas are bad. That they involve bicycles doesn't make them worthy of serious consideration.
Maybe the design isn't perfect, but at least have the decency to acknowledge that anyone who rides in the rain has thought of ways to make the experience better and, usually, we realize that we have to rely on others because we don't have the manufacturing tools and ability to design and construct prototypes in a cost-effective way, let alone market them to enough people to recover what we would invest in the design/production process.
#1585
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,483
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7649 Post(s)
Liked 3,469 Times
in
1,832 Posts
Have you ever used a poncho on a bike? If so, do you hold the corners of the poncho in your hands along with the hand grips? Have you ever thought of somehow clipping the corners so that you don't have to hold them and they still remain stretched taught over the handlebars so water doesn't pool above your lap? If so, consider that is exactly what these umbrella designers have sought to do.
Maybe the design isn't perfect, but at least have the decency to acknowledge that anyone who rides in the rain has thought of ways to make the experience better and, usually, we realize that we have to rely on others because we don't have the manufacturing tools and ability to design and construct prototypes in a cost-effective way, let alone market them to enough people to recover what we would invest in the design/production process.
However, I also made some of my own. You can use Visqueen (polythelene film) or regular garbage bags, sewn or taped between layers of cloth (for rip protection--Visqueen doesn't need this) and make rainproof bags, hats, or any other garment you feel you need.
I also made a lot of rain gear/waterproof bags out of ... torn-up ponchos. I found they tore pretty easily, and as rain gear were useless (I will not compromise my control by effectively tying my handlebars to my neck with a a poncho) but backing them with cloth gave them new life.
I made a sort of diaper because before i developed an aero-belly, I found wind would blast both up and down into my groin area a freeze me. A simple windbreaker-g-string solved that. I made a hat like a pharaoh's hat (sort of also like Darth Vader's helmet (I am suing!!)) so rain running off my head didn't go down my neck or onto my shoulders.
As you well know if you really do ride and ride in a sub-tropical locale, sweat will soak you as fast as rain, and depending on how hot you run and how hard you ride, a wicking t-shirt or a light wool sweater might be the best solution---the rain dilutes the sweat, and when you reach your destination, you wring it out and hang it up.
I was really amused to hear of your sock problems. Did it never occur to you to bring extra socks?
Personally, I ride in sandals in heavy rain and in most warm weather. Since I use panniers, spare shoes just make sense.
But hey ... aren't you posting off topic?
#1586
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Personally, I ride in sandals in heavy rain and in most warm weather. Since I use panniers, spare shoes just make sense.
But hey ... aren't you posting off topic?
https://www.bikeforums.net/living-ca...l#post20137093
#1587
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
All first world problems in the savannah. Or on Miami Vice.
Then I would have to put the wet socks somewhere to sit and mildew all day. Better to keep them on and walk around in them, which helps them dry faster.
Spare shoes take up too much cargo space.
I usually suggest starting new threads, but I think you are the type of person who likes to continue posting responses within the same thread to see if you can bait continuing interaction and get others in trouble for responding. Here, just to cover myself I will post a link to another thread on riding in the rain:
https://www.bikeforums.net/living-ca...l#post20137093
Spare shoes take up too much cargo space.
I usually suggest starting new threads, but I think you are the type of person who likes to continue posting responses within the same thread to see if you can bait continuing interaction and get others in trouble for responding. Here, just to cover myself I will post a link to another thread on riding in the rain:
https://www.bikeforums.net/living-ca...l#post20137093
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#1588
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
It would help to have a 'split thread' option, like the 'start new thread' option, but you could select it as part of responding to post within a thread. Idk if I should predict such a technological leap will happen at BF or in internet discussion generally in the next five years, though. It is, after all, a very advanced concept in interactive online discussion.
And put the staff out of work?
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#1589
Sophomoric Member
It’s not a given that the cost of driverless will stay higher. In the meantime driverless will become irresistible like cell phones. For example if people don’t have to pay for parking or can at least get their car to go to a cheap lot down the street, others will look twice as it gets harder and harder to function without one.
Steering wheels and their linkage/controls/power steering pump and belts, turn signal controls, and various instrument panel interfaces eventually disappear. Granted the initial cost of software development and sensors will more than offset any such savings. But in the long term you eliminate the investment in quality apolstery/buttons/knobs/instruments/aesthetics and replace that with weightless (now free) AI and hidden computer and sensors (rugged and ugly) with the user interface being a touch screen, where the same hardware costs are shared by all its functions.
Not an obvious outcome and nobody can say today.
Steering wheels and their linkage/controls/power steering pump and belts, turn signal controls, and various instrument panel interfaces eventually disappear. Granted the initial cost of software development and sensors will more than offset any such savings. But in the long term you eliminate the investment in quality apolstery/buttons/knobs/instruments/aesthetics and replace that with weightless (now free) AI and hidden computer and sensors (rugged and ugly) with the user interface being a touch screen, where the same hardware costs are shared by all its functions.
Not an obvious outcome and nobody can say today.
I'm not saying that a switchover to driverless won't happen--just that it's way too early to get smugly certain about it!
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#1590
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Possibly the biggest start-up cost will be related to cellular service that the cars will require. We're in the midst of switching over to 5G, but some people are concerned that this new technology won't be anywhere near adequate for billions of autonomous vehicles. Also, car companies and tech companies are sweating the costs. Not even Apple or Google is guaranteed to have big enough piles of cash to make the switch to autonomous, so it will be a a matter of convincing a lot of wealthy people that it's a good bet to provide leverage for this practically untried technology.
I'm not saying that a switchover to driverless won't happen--just that it's way too early to get smugly certain about it!
I'm not saying that a switchover to driverless won't happen--just that it's way too early to get smugly certain about it!
#1591
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Possibly the biggest start-up cost will be related to cellular service that the cars will require. We're in the midst of switching over to 5G, but some people are concerned that this new technology won't be anywhere near adequate for billions of autonomous vehicles. Also, car companies and tech companies are sweating the costs. Not even Apple or Google is guaranteed to have big enough piles of cash to make the switch to autonomous, so it will be a a matter of convincing a lot of wealthy people that it's a good bet to provide leverage for this practically untried technology.
I'm not saying that a switchover to driverless won't happen--just that it's way too early to get smugly certain about it!
I'm not saying that a switchover to driverless won't happen--just that it's way too early to get smugly certain about it!
#1592
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
“Cell service”? Are you talking about position info from a gps? Driverless cars will frequently need to operate without gps coverage. Not just when tree cover is thick - consider going thru a tunnel! The cars will need to have inertial position info which only need be occasionally calibrated with gps position.
#1593
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I wouldn't be surprised if all (driverless) cars are outfitted with servers/routers that function as an internet relay system between vehicles. Really, the internet was designed as a protocol for automatically rerouting signals whenever one or more servers would go offline. With vehicles in a tunnel or elsewhere, the ones that can get a good signal from an antenna should be able to relay that signal to other vehicles that can't. Basically the cars would work as extensions and amplifiers of the antennas.
It's not a simple matter to avoid having broadcasts that stomp on each other. But there's actually already a IEEE standard for this that will probably apply well to driverless cars (802.11p). But here too, you have security concerns with people trying to hack the car network. The timing requirements for exchange of data at high speed as cars zoom around coming into and out of range don't facilitate traditional authentication techniques. So there may be all kinds of neat traffic control/optimization techniques that we'll simply shy away from for fear of hacking.
An intrusion detection system against malicious attacks on the communication network of driverless cars - IEEE Conference Publication
#1594
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
I don't think it will go quite like that myself. With the internet you have a gateway server at a specific IP address that forwards your message to its destination. But with driverless cars intercommunicating you have a network where the participants keep changing and the communication is with other cars in your immediate area rather than a specific gateway at a remote location. Internet-style routing just won't work because your car won't know the address of local vehicles and it would be too slow to communicate with them individually anyway. So I think it will be more of a situation where each car broadcasts information about its position/direction/speed continually. Other cars in the area receive these broadcast messages and are thus informed.
It's not a simple matter to avoid having broadcasts that stomp on each other. But there's actually already a IEEE standard for this that will probably apply well to driverless cars (802.11p). But here too, you have security concerns with people trying to hack the car network. The timing requirements for exchange of data at high speed as cars zoom around coming into and out of range don't facilitate traditional authentication techniques. So there may be all kinds of neat traffic control/optimization techniques that we'll simply shy away from for fear of hacking.
An intrusion detection system against malicious attacks on the communication network of driverless cars - IEEE Conference Publication
It's not a simple matter to avoid having broadcasts that stomp on each other. But there's actually already a IEEE standard for this that will probably apply well to driverless cars (802.11p). But here too, you have security concerns with people trying to hack the car network. The timing requirements for exchange of data at high speed as cars zoom around coming into and out of range don't facilitate traditional authentication techniques. So there may be all kinds of neat traffic control/optimization techniques that we'll simply shy away from for fear of hacking.
An intrusion detection system against malicious attacks on the communication network of driverless cars - IEEE Conference Publication
As for vehicle identification, I think simplified methods can be devised to eliminate the need for id-verification and ip-address type specifications. E.g. vehicles could signal their lane and position simply by broadcasting on a frequency that corresponds to their lane. If cars would constantly identify themselves and their positions within their lane channel, other vehicles would keep track of them and if they suddenly went off the radar, there would be protocols for re-establishing contact and/or taking evasive precautions.
#1595
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
You can also hack the infrared sensors in elevators to trick the door into thinking a person is in the way. You can try waving your hand in front of the elevator door repeatedly while someone next to you is waiting for the door to close and see when they say something to you. With cars, the issue is obviously more dangerous, but how often do you hear about people's brake lines getting cut? Hacking is easy but it just doesn't happen much.
As for vehicle identification, I think simplified methods can be devised to eliminate the need for id-verification and ip-address type specifications. E.g. vehicles could signal their lane and position simply by broadcasting on a frequency that corresponds to their lane. If cars would constantly identify themselves and their positions within their lane channel, other vehicles would keep track of them and if they suddenly went off the radar, there would be protocols for re-establishing contact and/or taking evasive precautions.
As for vehicle identification, I think simplified methods can be devised to eliminate the need for id-verification and ip-address type specifications. E.g. vehicles could signal their lane and position simply by broadcasting on a frequency that corresponds to their lane. If cars would constantly identify themselves and their positions within their lane channel, other vehicles would keep track of them and if they suddenly went off the radar, there would be protocols for re-establishing contact and/or taking evasive precautions.
In any case the problem has been solved with devices like this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.res...unications/amp
The problems are daunting to a novice. You really need a lot of training as an EE to figure this stuff out.
#1596
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
What about the cross-talk that results from multiple cars in the same lane using the same frequency? That would also require receiving on multiple frequencies and a wider spectrum of frequencies and dynamic switching based on your lane. Way too complicated and why?
In any case the problem has been solved with devices like this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.res...unications/amp
The problems are daunting to a novice. You really need a lot of training as an EE to figure this stuff out.
In any case the problem has been solved with devices like this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.res...unications/amp
The problems are daunting to a novice. You really need a lot of training as an EE to figure this stuff out.
If multiple cars are broadcasting on the same frequency that is designated for a certain lane, they could each have a unique tone that would distinguish them. As different vehicles come into range, they could listen for what tones are present on the frequency and automatically select an unused tone. Idk how astute tone-recognition is but as I recall the horrible grinding sound that dial-up modems would make in the 90s connecting to AOL consisted of a lot of different tones being played simultaneously.
How many vehicles in each lane does each vehicle need to keep track of? If each one broadcasts its position and speed relative to others, couldn't onboard computers triangulate all the positions and distances of vehicles in their surroundings?
#1597
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I doubt the right electrical engineers are looking for input on BF anyway
Last edited by Walter S; 02-02-18 at 04:14 PM.
#1598
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times
in
13 Posts
Thousands of separate tones assigned to different cars? Again too complicated. 802.11p/Direct Short Range Communication (DSRC) already exists and works just fine. If you have suggestions you should probably consider things that are simpler. The cardinal rule of engineering is to make it as simple as possible, but no simpler. (Einstein)
I doubt the right electrical engineers are looking for input on BF anyway
I doubt the right electrical engineers are looking for input on BF anyway
Anyway, it was just a response to the problems you all were talking about, such as the delays involved with using IC addresses. I think you and certain others here are just biased against self-driving developments because of political reasons, though, and you translate your political biases into negative thoughts about the viability of the technology.
#1599
Senior Member
And this statement (opinion) is based on what reliable (aka factual) evidence that we can all read for ourselves??
#1600
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
There wouldn't be thousands of separate tones, because vehicles would signal their presence as they come into range by scrolling through a palette of tones until they no response comes back that their tone is already being used. By the time cars were next to each other, they would have already established their tones.
Anyway, it was just a response to the problems you all were talking about, such as the delays involved with using IC addresses. I think you and certain others here are just biased against self-driving developments because of political reasons, though, and you translate your political biases into negative thoughts about the viability of the technology.
Anyway, it was just a response to the problems you all were talking about, such as the delays involved with using IC addresses. I think you and certain others here are just biased against self-driving developments because of political reasons, though, and you translate your political biases into negative thoughts about the viability of the technology.
It's ironic that you think I'm biased against the technology with respect to this particular point where I'm arguing that the technology exists already (intercar communication) and you're trying to figure out how to make it work.
As to self driving in general, yes I continue to believe that its adoption on public roads will be much slower than most of the hype I see on the subject. The problems with self driving cars have very little to do with whether or not they could intercommunicate. THAT problem is easy and there's already a formal IEEE standard for it in place (802.11p) (the "p" is for specific ammendments made for intercar communication).