Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Tandem Cycling
Reload this Page >

Improving eTap shifting on Tandem

Notices
Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

Improving eTap shifting on Tandem

Old 10-11-21, 09:45 AM
  #1  
tandemfor2
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Improving eTap shifting on Tandem

Hello All - We have a 2012 Cannondale Road 2 tandem which we upgraded to a 2x12 SRAM Force AXS system from House of Tandems. Essentially, the system supports a 34x48 up front and a custom 11x42 cassette in the rear. As Ric at House of Tandems puts it, consider it a 1x system with a bailout onto the 34 for a few of the lowest gears. That's how we use it, and it has not failed us.


However, although the rear Force AXS derailleur on a wolf tooth handles the range just fine, I find that there are gears in the middle that will not upshift cleanly. What I have to do is upshift 2 gears and downshift 1 to get to the cog I want. If I bias the shifting to get the upshifts to be clean, the chain is not aligned well and downshifts have problems. I need the downshifts to be clean so that is how I've biased the drivetrain.


I've tried different chain lengths and all manner of B-screw adjustments to get the shifting clean for both up- and down-shifts and my conclusion is that over the 11x42 range with the wolf tooth, the upper jockey wheel is just not close enough to the cassette to get the upshifting to be crisp in the middle to smallest cogs. The worst shifts are in the 6-9 cassettes, when upshifting from 6 to 7, or 7 to 8, or 8-9.


Want some expert or semiexpert opinions on using one of the Eagle AXS derailleurs that can handle the 10x50 range cassettes. my assumption is that without the wolf tooth, and using a derailleur that is designed for a large range, I'll be able to size the chain to use the 48 up front with the full 11x42 in the rear and the Eagle should be better capable to keep the top pully close to the cassette for clean shifts. And, since I'd only be using the 34 for the first lowest cassette cogs, it should be able to work with the 2x system.


Thoughts?

Thanks!
tandemfor2 is offline  
Likes For tandemfor2:
Old 10-11-21, 11:31 AM
  #2  
Alcanbrad
Senior Member
 
Alcanbrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 393

Bikes: '14 CoMo Carrera, '11 CoMo Primera co-pilot, '98 Santana Visa, a Plethora of road bikes, A commuter/Gravel beast (and 1 MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 30 Posts
Two places I would check right away:
1 - Custom cassette? Is this mixing cogs from different makers? Are the problem gears from one of the donner cassettes and the other works fine? What is the difference in teeth between the problem gears (could it be too large?).
2 - Chain: Is the chain from the same vendor as the cassette?

It can get expensive quick, but you might try and standard cassette and/or different chain vendor to see if the problem moves or is eliminated. Only change one thing at a time.

Last edited by Alcanbrad; 10-11-21 at 11:37 AM.
Alcanbrad is offline  
Old 10-11-21, 12:54 PM
  #3  
tandemfor2
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Alcanbrad View Post
Two places I would check right away:
1 - Custom cassette? Is this mixing cogs from different makers? Are the problem gears from one of the donner cassettes and the other works fine? What is the difference in teeth between the problem gears (could it be too large?).
2 - Chain: Is the chain from the same vendor as the cassette?

It can get expensive quick, but you might try and standard cassette and/or different chain vendor to see if the problem moves or is eliminated. Only change one thing at a time.
Thanks for the reply Alcanbrad.
Sugek is the cassette vendor(!), it was a custom put together by HoT. And I don't know of any 11x42 (or close) 12 speed cassettes that are built for the Shimano HG spline.
I've thought about the chain, but the SRAM chains get high marks for durability vs other vendors, and they are reasonably priced.
Any input?
tandemfor2 is offline  
Old 10-11-21, 02:33 PM
  #4  
Alcanbrad
Senior Member
 
Alcanbrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 393

Bikes: '14 CoMo Carrera, '11 CoMo Primera co-pilot, '98 Santana Visa, a Plethora of road bikes, A commuter/Gravel beast (and 1 MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 30 Posts
I can't speak to the Sugek cassette. There are a lot of cheap cassette options that only available on Alibabba (and maybe a few choices of other suppliers) with various positive and negative experiences.. SRAM does make a 12sp 11-50T which says "compatible with splined hubs" https://www.sram.com/en/sram/road/pr...levancy&page=1 I would investigate further to confirm hub compatibility if you go this route. Looking at the Force Axcess ETAP, it appears has a capacity of 39, which should work with the 11-50 in a 1-by setup, but you would need to think if you could support the bail out options that Ric spec'd.

I would come back to the compatibility of the chain and cassette. Chances are high that Sugek either attempted to reverse engineer the tooth profiles and ramp designs, or just swagged it. Either way, I don't think they licensed AXS technology so it is not assured that it will work flawlessly in all scenarios..

Other things to look at in addition to the cassette not being a good match for the SRAM chain: The chain line for that combination of cassette and chain may be sub optimal. If your bottom bracket shell is a 68 and the bottom bracket is a 73 with washers, you can get thinner washers and stack them in different combinations move the bottom bracket in or out a little to change the chain line. Finally, suggest trying a different 12 speed chain. I have had good luck with KMC 10 and 11 speed chains. The advantage of trying this is if it does not fix your problem, you still have a usable 12 speed chain that you can use when time to replace the current chain.

I do not have a 12 speed drivetrain, but I did go through a whole litany of the above suggestions in trying to resolve an issue with an 11 speed Sram Etap Red set up from Ric for our Co-Mo (long thread exists in this forum). I thought it was ghost shifting which I could not resolve until I put a GoPro on the drivetrain and discovered it turned out that the 34 tooth chain ring Ric supplied was not up to the task on our bike and the chain was actually skipping up front. A different chain ring from a different manufacturer solved our problem, but I learned a lot and had to tweak many different chain, cassette, and chain line combinations to achieve good shifting with the various combinations (I should have started with GoPro for an accurate diagnosis of my issue). In all cases, I was able to adjust to get good shifting across the range which I believe you can too with some tweaking and/or maybe a cassette or chain change, but it will likely take some futzing to find the right combination.

Last edited by Alcanbrad; 10-11-21 at 05:26 PM.
Alcanbrad is offline  
Old 10-11-21, 03:45 PM
  #5  
tandemfor2
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Alcanbrad View Post
I can't speak to the Sugek cassette. There are a lot of cheap cassette options that only available on Alibabba (and maybe a few choices of other suppliers) with various positive and negative experiences.. SRAM does make a 12sp 11-50T which says "compatible with splined hubs"would investigate further to confirm hub compatibility if you go this route. Looking at the Force Axcess ETAP, it appears has a capacity of 39, which should work with the 11-50 in a 1-by setup, but you would need to think if you could support the bail out options that Ric spec'd.

I would come back to the compatibility of the chain and cassette. Chances are high that Sugek either attempted to reverse engineer the tooth profiles and ramp designs, or just swagged it. Either way, I don't think they licensed AXS technology so it is not assured that it will work flawlessly in all scenarios..

Other things to look at in addition to the cassette not being a good match for the SRAM chain: The chain line for that combination of cassette and chain may be sub optimal. If your bottom bracket shell is a 68 and the bottom bracket is a 73 with washers, you can get thinner washers and stack them in different combinations move the bottom bracket in or out a little to change the chain line. Finally, suggest trying a different 12 speed chain. I have had good luck with KMC 10 and 11 speed chains. The advantage of trying this is if it does not fix your problem, you still have a usable 12 speed chain that you can use when time to replace the current chain.

I do not have a 12 speed drivetrain, but I did go through a whole litany of the above suggestions in trying to resolve an issue with an 11 speed Sram Etap Red set up from Ric for our Co-Mo (long thread exists in this forum). I thought it was ghost shifting which I could not resolve until I put a GoPro on the drivetrain and discovered it turned out the the 34 tooth chain ring Ric supplied was not up to the task on our bike and the chain was actually skipping up front. A different chain ring from a different manufacturer solved our problem, but I learned a lot and had to tweak many different chain, cassette, and chain line combinations to achieve good shifting with the various combinations (I should have started with GoPro for an accurate diagnosis of my issue). In all cases, I was able to adjust to get good shifting across the range which I believe you can too with some tweaking and/or maybe a cassette or chain change, but it will likely take some futzing to find the right combination.
This is all great stuff, thanks.
1) I did order a KMC 12 chain, will take a while to come in but I'm willing to try that. I also have a more expensive Eagle 12 chain on order as well. So I've got that covered.
2) The Force AXS etap doesn't show that it has a 39 capacity, all I see is that there is a model that has a 36T max. Hence the need for the Wolftooth. I don't think it can handle an 11x50! Where did you see this.
3) I can agree that the Sugek is probably not "optimal", so there could be an issue there. I just think with the pulley far away from the cogs and the flexibility of the SRAM chain, it's perfectly happy bending 1 gear over and not dropping onto that gear!
4) I've tried the bottom bracket stuff! Started with a 52 chainring and that did not clear the chainstay. So tried to move the washers and that caused the left crankarm to get way too close to the chainstay so that was no good. Finally settled on going back to the even spacing on the BB and a 48 chainring. Don't really need the 48x11 all that much!
5) Never had any ghost shifting with my Cannonale, the Al frame is super stiff! We used to have a steel Burley and that one couldn't take any standing torque without gears changing. We were off the tandem for a while and sold the Burley and when we got back into it, I wanted nothing but that Cannondale for the stiffness! Glad I did.

I might go the route of buying an Eagle AXS rear derailleur and one of the Eagle cassettes. They will be compatible and should work with the 48 with enough links in the chain (might need to piece together 2 chains!) Worse comes to worse, I can sell the stuff on eBay if it doesn't work out. If the derailleur can handle 48 up front across 11x50, it should be able to handle 34 teeth with the first few lowest cogs.
tandemfor2 is offline  
Old 10-11-21, 05:21 PM
  #6  
Alcanbrad
Senior Member
 
Alcanbrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 393

Bikes: '14 CoMo Carrera, '11 CoMo Primera co-pilot, '98 Santana Visa, a Plethora of road bikes, A commuter/Gravel beast (and 1 MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by tandemfor2 View Post
This is all great stuff, thanks.
...
2) The Force AXS etap doesn't show that it has a 39 capacity, all I see is that there is a model that has a 36T max. Hence the need for the Wolftooth. I don't think it can handle an 11x50! Where did you see this.
....
Don't confuse drive train capacity with a derailleur max cog size. From SRAM website:
Drive train tooth capacity for Force eTap AXS 36t-max rear derailleurs is 39t. (Drive train tooth capacity is calculated using the following formula: [difference between tooth numbers on smallest and largest chainring] + [difference between tooth numbers on smallest and largest cog on cassette])

Capacity is the ability of the derailleur to take up the slack links when shifting to higher gear. The road link is there to allow for a larger cog size. I run road links on 3 different bikes in order to get lower gears so it is doable. With a 1 by force axs and an 11-50 cassette, per the above formula you don't violate the capacity parameter.

By your list you are already doing most of the things to try. It could be as you suggested, that the road link holds the jockey wheel too far from the cogs. The larger cassette from SRAM might help that, but you won't know until you try.
Alcanbrad is offline  
Old 10-11-21, 05:24 PM
  #7  
Alcanbrad
Senior Member
 
Alcanbrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 393

Bikes: '14 CoMo Carrera, '11 CoMo Primera co-pilot, '98 Santana Visa, a Plethora of road bikes, A commuter/Gravel beast (and 1 MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 30 Posts
One more point I missed above: When putting together these unsupported configurations, you can usually push the capacity by 1 or 2 links without too much trouble, but not always.
Alcanbrad is offline  
Old 10-11-21, 06:33 PM
  #8  
sdodd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times in 20 Posts
Not to be too obvious or off topic, but you might try checking your rear derailleur hanger alignment. I'm amazed at how much a small angle effects shifting on the rear. And, equally amazed that even though I baby all of my bikes (when I'm not riding them) I still manage to bend hangers enough that I have to get out the tool to straighten. When I find one bike that is out of alignment I usually just throw them all on the stand to check.
sdodd is offline  
Likes For sdodd:
Old 10-12-21, 06:17 AM
  #9  
Alcanbrad
Senior Member
 
Alcanbrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 393

Bikes: '14 CoMo Carrera, '11 CoMo Primera co-pilot, '98 Santana Visa, a Plethora of road bikes, A commuter/Gravel beast (and 1 MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by sdodd View Post
Not to be too obvious or off topic, but you might try checking your rear derailleur hanger alignment. I'm amazed at how much a small angle effects shifting on the rear. And, equally amazed that even though I baby all of my bikes (when I'm not riding them) I still manage to bend hangers enough that I have to get out the tool to straighten. When I find one bike that is out of alignment I usually just throw them all on the stand to check.
Excellent point! This can indeed have a large impact.

A cautionary warning: I tried to straighten a slightly bent hanger with a road link installed and the road link snapped in half with very little force. Check with the road link installed, but if you have to adjust, remove the road link before doing so, (or have a spare on hand).
Alcanbrad is offline  
Old 10-12-21, 06:40 AM
  #10  
sdodd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 33 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by Alcanbrad View Post
A cautionary warning: I tried to straighten a slightly bent hanger with a road link installed and the road link snapped in half with very little force. Check with the road link installed, but if you have to adjust, remove the road link before doing so, (or have a spare on hand).
Very Good Point! When bending hangers just bend the hanger - not anything attached to the hanger - even if it is a 'hanger extension' like the road link.

Personally I use the Park Tool DAG 2.2 (Derailleur alignment gauge) that is both a tool for testing alignment and buffly enough to allow you to bend. With half a dozen bikes mostly with steel dropouts it gets used often.

If your bike has a replaceable hanger then a cheaper tool for checking could be better. If you are out of alignment, just replace the hanger. I think more modern Cannondale's all have replaceable hangers. (not sure on the tandems) As a junior I rode a Cannondale 3.0 road frameset and the hanger was 1/4" thick aluminum. While I was able to straighten once or twice, it was not for the feint of heart!
sdodd is offline  
Old 10-12-21, 07:00 AM
  #11  
Alcanbrad
Senior Member
 
Alcanbrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 393

Bikes: '14 CoMo Carrera, '11 CoMo Primera co-pilot, '98 Santana Visa, a Plethora of road bikes, A commuter/Gravel beast (and 1 MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by sdodd View Post
...

Personally I use the Park Tool DAG 2.2 (Derailleur alignment gauge) that is both a tool for testing alignment and buffly enough to allow you to bend. With half a dozen bikes mostly with steel dropouts it gets used often.

...
I have both the Park DAG 2.2 and the Wolf Tooth Pack Hanger tools. I got the Wolf Tooth tool first as it appeared innovative and compact. After several unsuccessful straightening attempts, I bought the Park and have been very happy with it. (Park recently introduced a new model but I have no experience with it.).

I can't recommend the Wolf Tooth tool, unless you have a laser alignment tool to go along with it. (Having given it a glowing review, I do have one for sale )

Now, back to the OP's quest to resolve his shifting problems.....
Alcanbrad is offline  
Old 10-12-21, 06:35 PM
  #12  
act0fgod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 124

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac Pro, Bilenky Coupled Tandem, Calfee Tetra Tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
We had a similar shifting issue when we had an 11 speed 11-42 cassette on our 11 speed e-tap red. I had to shift up twice then down once to go from gear 6->7. I don't remember what the tooth count was. We never got it sorted out.

We switched to a 9-34 cassette and changed the front chainrings. We no longer experience the shifting issue on the cassette. Our current issue is dropping the chain when pushing it hard when on the 9t on the rear and 50t up front (it jumps off the front chainring).

Our other tandem has di2 and we love the shifting. Unfortunately it doesn't look as pretty with the cables routed externally.
act0fgod is offline  
Old 10-15-21, 04:34 AM
  #13  
bwebel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 148
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rotor makes some 12 speed cassettes. I have an 11x36 to use with a similar SRAM setup, but haven't gotten it built up yet. They also have 11x39 and 11x46. The cassettes aren't cheap, but would be a direct drop in to your current system to see if it worked.
bwebel is offline  
Old 10-18-21, 05:48 PM
  #14  
Msteven
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Ah, yes...the quest for perfect shifting...We had the same problem with 11 speed eTap. Our 11-40 and 52-34 + roadlink just never quite shifted right. Almost the exact symptoms you are describing...will shift one way but not the other. I have to say that when the chain was brand new, and matched to the cassette (shimano-shimano or Sram-Sram) it all worked better for a while. A little wear or grit and things were off again.

Eventually I changed the entire system to XTR 3x11 with a 30-39-52 and 11-42. This was much better...when the FD was adjusted just right, but this had a tendency to get out of alignment, so shifting up to the 52 or down to the 30 sometimes became problematic. This also became frustrating, so I changed the FD to a 2x XT unit, dropped the rings to 48-34, and changed the rear freehub from shimano to XD and I am using a 10-42. Now this does work well. the FD only has to deal with 2 rings, so more room for imperfection. the rear with a little b-screw adjustment sits just right on the cogs. This gives almost the same low and a little over the previous high gear. Next experiment is to attempt to drop the inner chainring to 30t which delivers about 18" low gear for those 15% grades around our area in the Pacific NW.
Msteven is offline  
Old 10-19-21, 06:01 AM
  #15  
IPassGas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 313

Bikes: Schwinn, Nishiki, Santana, Trek, Rodriguez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 76 Times in 48 Posts
A bit off topic. We have perfect shifting with a Rohloff. Some may find the gear range (19 to 99) a bit narrow, but we are ok with spinning out at 28 mph and 19 gets us up anything fully loaded on tour. I no longer think about which gear I need to be in before stopping and can shift the whole gear range in an instant. The cost is initially high, but perhaps not when compared with electronic shifting. The rear cog last 15,000 mi, costs about $25, and the low cost chain lasts longer.
IPassGas is offline  
Old 10-19-21, 07:57 PM
  #16  
act0fgod
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 124

Bikes: Specialized Tarmac Pro, Bilenky Coupled Tandem, Calfee Tetra Tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 29 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by IPassGas View Post
A bit off topic. We have perfect shifting with a Rohloff. Some may find the gear range (19 to 99) a bit narrow, but we are ok with spinning out at 28 mph and 19 gets us up anything fully loaded on tour. I no longer think about which gear I need to be in before stopping and can shift the whole gear range in an instant. The cost is initially high, but perhaps not when compared with electronic shifting. The rear cog last 15,000 mi, costs about $25, and the low cost chain lasts longer.
How is letting off the pedals to shift?
act0fgod is offline  
Old 10-20-21, 07:21 AM
  #17  
IPassGas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 313

Bikes: Schwinn, Nishiki, Santana, Trek, Rodriguez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 151 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 76 Times in 48 Posts
Originally Posted by act0fgod View Post
How is letting off the pedals to shift?
About same as derailleur. When the captain lightens up, the stoker can sense when a gear change is coming. Sometimes the captain says shifting. Shifting when stopped is convenient, since by decree of a higher power, all stop signs must be placed at the bottom of a valley
IPassGas is offline  
Old 10-24-21, 04:27 PM
  #18  
bwebel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 148
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by bwebel View Post
Rotor makes some 12 speed cassettes. I have an 11x36 to use with a similar SRAM setup, but haven't gotten it built up yet. They also have 11x39 and 11x46. The cassettes aren't cheap, but would be a direct drop in to your current system to see if it worked.
This inspired me to finally get the build quasi-finished. It's Red Etap cable shifters/Force long cage derailleur/Rotor 11x36 cassette, KMC chain. Cranks are old Mavic with FSA 53x39 10 spd rings, front derailleur is Campy cable driven off of a bar end shifter. I have a wireless front derailleur, but couldn't find the battery for it, so left it in the box. Initial build had a lot of noise in the lowest 6 cogs, with the largest ones being fine, so I mostly kept in in those cogs for the whole first ride. Once I actually read the manual and figured out how to micro adjust, it is fine in all the cogs on the stand, though have yet to ride it. Maybe not the quietest running setup, but there isn't any lube on the chain other than what the new chain has on it, so I imagine that will help.
I've been resistant to electronic shifting on general retrogrouch grounds, but I will say the ease of shifting out of the saddle going up steep grades was nice compared to a cable setup, and the range on the 11x36 is pretty impressive, while still having pretty close gaps. I know the derailleur is only rated for 36t, but was thinking if maybe the 39 would work as well. Of course, given the cost of the cassette, I may not be in that much of a hurry to find out.
bwebel is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.