Disks not ready
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Bleeding is something that you do when you install the system or when you want/need to flush the fluid, it's not a part of regular maintenance like changing pads. You could do that every few years, and you'd be firmly on the proactive side with that kind of maintenance schedule.
In and of itself, bleeding isn't terribly difficult to do or to wrap your head around, either. With no prior experience, I installed (upgraded from mechanical), filled and bled the brake system on my gravel bike in an afternoon. That was four and a half years ago and the brakes are still performing flawlessly, with the only maintenance being a few pad swaps. IOW, since the install, I've probably devoted less than 30 minutes to maintenance and adjustment of the brakes on that bike, in half a decade or so.
In and of itself, bleeding isn't terribly difficult to do or to wrap your head around, either. With no prior experience, I installed (upgraded from mechanical), filled and bled the brake system on my gravel bike in an afternoon. That was four and a half years ago and the brakes are still performing flawlessly, with the only maintenance being a few pad swaps. IOW, since the install, I've probably devoted less than 30 minutes to maintenance and adjustment of the brakes on that bike, in half a decade or so.
Likes For WhyFi:
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Or are you talking about adjustment of the lever travel as your brake pads wear (increasing the gap between the pads and rim)? That's not something that you have to do with hydraulics.
#53
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,648
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1943 Post(s)
Liked 1,464 Times
in
1,013 Posts
I'm not understanding. It's not really something that sneaks up on you and you don't need to check that there's sufficient pad life before every ride. If you do a lot of riding/braking, do a visual inspection every once in a while (a flashlight might be helpful), starting a handful of months after the initial pad install.
#54
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Posts: 1,936
Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Liked 1,154 Times
in
640 Posts
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,873
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1456 Post(s)
Liked 1,477 Times
in
867 Posts
I'm not really sure what this means, but isn't Bike Forums a better place to discuss Froome's comments than writing private letters to him?
Oh, I see now... you think that because I'm calling his statement "nonsense" that I'm somehow questioning his "hardness" on his descending ability. I'm not.
Froome may very well be overheating brakes on long/fast descents. What I'm saying is that it's nonsense for him to claim that disc brakes are somehow worse than rim brakes in this context, or that this problem of brakes overheating is somehow unique to disc brakes. Rim brakes, particularly on carbon wheels, have serious downsides when it comes to long sustained mountain descents.
Oh, I see now... you think that because I'm calling his statement "nonsense" that I'm somehow questioning his "hardness" on his descending ability. I'm not.
Froome may very well be overheating brakes on long/fast descents. What I'm saying is that it's nonsense for him to claim that disc brakes are somehow worse than rim brakes in this context, or that this problem of brakes overheating is somehow unique to disc brakes. Rim brakes, particularly on carbon wheels, have serious downsides when it comes to long sustained mountain descents.
Last edited by msu2001la; 02-09-21 at 03:24 PM.
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Thank you, this is what I was curious about and looking for, that one can (relatively easily) check pad thickness with a flashlight. But still not quite as easy as with rim brakes. I am chubby so even at slower speeds there is a bit of kinetic energy that must be converted to heat in order to slow down or stop.
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,371
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2482 Post(s)
Liked 2,952 Times
in
1,677 Posts
From what I've read here and elsewhere, it seems that Froome's problem is not with disk brakes per se; it's that the rotors provided by a sponsor, SwissStop, are not up to the task. His statement to the press may have been meant to encourage the team owners to light a fire under SwissStop to improve their rotors.
#59
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 157 Times
in
55 Posts
I'm very curious how exactly is dealing with rubbing or the opposite, low contact point, centering and bleeding is "much easier"? I've had rim brakes all my life until recently and they never were such a hassle compared to discs.
#60
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Sounds like yours were never set up properly. Each of these things is pretty easy to deal with and, once done properly, shouldn't need to be addressed again for quite some time.
Likes For WhyFi:
#61
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 157 Times
in
55 Posts
My systems are Shimano Ultegra 11 and Campagnolo Chorus 11 for rim brakes vs SRAM Force eTap HRD 12 for discs. I asked the LBS to take a look at low contact point on the discs which I did not like. Since they could not fix it I had to tinker with it myself. I learned how to do it, but the process is definitely more involved than simple cable adjustment for rim brakes. Same for centering - rims are much easier and rarely need it while my discs love to be re-centered at every opportunity. I shudder at the thought of having to bleed the brakes which, according to SRAM, should be done yearly. I guess you are lucky that your system is more reliable than mine.
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,945
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3948 Post(s)
Liked 7,291 Times
in
2,945 Posts
Originally Posted by tyrion
Peak Torque agrees with Froome, putting 4 times the heat (compared to mountain biking) into a smaller system (than MB) is problematic:
Likes For tomato coupe:
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
My systems are Shimano Ultegra 11 and Campagnolo Chorus 11 for rim brakes vs SRAM Force eTap HRD 12 for discs. I asked the LBS to take a look at low contact point on the discs which I did not like. Since they could not fix it I had to tinker with it myself. I learned how to do it, but the process is definitely more involved than simple cable adjustment for rim brakes. Same for centering - rims are much easier and rarely need it while my discs love to be re-centered at every opportunity. I shudder at the thought of having to bleed the brakes which, according to SRAM, should be done yearly. I guess you are lucky that your system is more reliable than mine.
#64
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 172
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 157 Times
in
55 Posts
Contact point - how much the brake lever is moved until the brake pads touch the rotor. I like it to be high, meaning the lever does not move much and hits the brake sooner. With rim brakes it is trivial. With SRAM I need to do some dancing to adjust that. And with time the contact point increases and I have to adjust again. Maybe all this because SRAM hydraulics are crap compared to Shimano.
#65
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,474
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3374 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I have a lot of experiance with both braking systems and have several of each. So does my kid who is fast.
For riding - discs are great. For winning a road race on pavement when dry, I would choose rim brakes. You typically win not using brakes and lighter and no drag matters mentally.
For riding - discs are great. For winning a road race on pavement when dry, I would choose rim brakes. You typically win not using brakes and lighter and no drag matters mentally.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Contact point - how much the brake lever is moved until the brake pads touch the rotor. I like it to be high, meaning the lever does not move much and hits the brake sooner. With rim brakes it is trivial. With SRAM I need to do some dancing to adjust that. And with time the contact point increases and I have to adjust again. Maybe all this because SRAM hydraulics are crap compared to Shimano.
If I travel long distances with my bike, an air bubble can work out of the reservoir (in the hoods) and get in to the brake line (between the master cylinder and caliper), which will result in more lever travel and mushiness, but pumping the brakes, lever flicks, jiggling, etc, will usually take care of that by getting the bubble(s) back up and out of the line.
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,799
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,022 Times
in
722 Posts
One thing I've wondered, watching the TDF and the Giro last year is if the brakes don't increase the crash rate when descending and braking through corners. Bike tires don't really have that much contact with the road for the speeds and the cornering limits that racers hit. Toss in faster stopping and it would seem to make questionable situations sketchier and increase the chances of breaking traction and crashing.
I installed hydro disc on both my kids' bikes so they could stop better, custom ordered my cross with disc and made sure the new gravel frame only used disc. Don't own a single carbon rim and don't plan to, I just like consistent, reliable stopping in any conditions. I'm better that's true for a lot of people.
I installed new discs today, took me 20 min each between screaming kids to cut the lines, route them through the frame, bleed them and set the calipers. Probably close to twice the time road rim brakes would take but pad replacement on the discs is much faster. I push a screw driver between the old pads to compress the piston, pull off the cotter pin, undo the screw that holds them in, slide out the old, slide in the new, reinstall screw and pin, install wheel and squeeze the lever. Sounds like more work but calipers require aligning the pads, toeing them in, releasing the previously taken up cable with the barrel adjuster or the fixing bolt, recentering the caliper and adjusting the cable to the new pads. If the pads have spacers, conical washers or in the case of V-brakes lots of both, it gets tedious not dropping those putting the pad fixing bolt in place. Cantis can be the worst with the straddle cable and getting the pads the same settings on both sides. Considering discs can go years with no trouble, I like them.
I'm a little beyond chubby and will really push the braking on my bike in the woods, fade has yet to be an issue.
What is a lot contact point? Not certain I've seen this one. As I mentioned above, with hydraulics centering and bleeding is quick and easy. Centering with cable disc can be annoying, but a properly set up thru axle bike really doesn't have disc issues in my experience.
What about bleeding? Adding fluid?
I wish I had talked to you last year. I was replacing a bike after a car wreck and had a chance to get a DE Rosa Protos directly from the De Rosa warehouse/factory that belonged to team Nippos. One of their actual replacements-not a replica—and for the same price as the regular rim brake one because they were out of stock. I was directly dealing with Christiano De Rosa via email.
I didn’t because it was disc. Doh!!! Oh well got a pretty sweet F8 from elsewhere.
I wish I had talked to you last year. I was replacing a bike after a car wreck and had a chance to get a DE Rosa Protos directly from the De Rosa warehouse/factory that belonged to team Nippos. One of their actual replacements-not a replica—and for the same price as the regular rim brake one because they were out of stock. I was directly dealing with Christiano De Rosa via email.
I didn’t because it was disc. Doh!!! Oh well got a pretty sweet F8 from elsewhere.
Thank you, this is what I was curious about and looking for, that one can (relatively easily) check pad thickness with a flashlight. But still not quite as easy as with rim brakes. I am chubby so even at slower speeds there is a bit of kinetic energy that must be converted to heat in order to slow down or stop.
What is a lot contact point? Not certain I've seen this one. As I mentioned above, with hydraulics centering and bleeding is quick and easy. Centering with cable disc can be annoying, but a properly set up thru axle bike really doesn't have disc issues in my experience.
Likes For Russ Roth:
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times
in
569 Posts
One thing I've wondered, watching the TDF and the Giro last year is if the brakes don't increase the crash rate when descending and braking through corners. Bike tires don't really have that much contact with the road for the speeds and the cornering limits that racers hit. Toss in faster stopping and it would seem to make questionable situations sketchier and increase the chances of breaking traction and crashing.
I installed hydro disc on both my kids' bikes so they could stop better, custom ordered my cross with disc and made sure the new gravel frame only used disc. Don't own a single carbon rim and don't plan to, I just like consistent, reliable stopping in any conditions. I'm better that's true for a lot of people.
I installed new discs today, took me 20 min each between screaming kids to cut the lines, route them through the frame, bleed them and set the calipers. Probably close to twice the time road rim brakes would take but pad replacement on the discs is much faster. I push a screw driver between the old pads to compress the piston, pull off the cotter pin, undo the screw that holds them in, slide out the old, slide in the new, reinstall screw and pin, install wheel and squeeze the lever. Sounds like more work but calipers require aligning the pads, toeing them in, releasing the previously taken up cable with the barrel adjuster or the fixing bolt, recentering the caliper and adjusting the cable to the new pads. If the pads have spacers, conical washers or in the case of V-brakes lots of both, it gets tedious not dropping those putting the pad fixing bolt in place. Cantis can be the worst with the straddle cable and getting the pads the same settings on both sides. Considering discs can go years with no trouble, I like them.
I'm a little beyond chubby and will really push the braking on my bike in the woods, fade has yet to be an issue.
What is a lot contact point? Not certain I've seen this one. As I mentioned above, with hydraulics centering and bleeding is quick and easy. Centering with cable disc can be annoying, but a properly set up thru axle bike really doesn't have disc issues in my experience.
I installed hydro disc on both my kids' bikes so they could stop better, custom ordered my cross with disc and made sure the new gravel frame only used disc. Don't own a single carbon rim and don't plan to, I just like consistent, reliable stopping in any conditions. I'm better that's true for a lot of people.
I installed new discs today, took me 20 min each between screaming kids to cut the lines, route them through the frame, bleed them and set the calipers. Probably close to twice the time road rim brakes would take but pad replacement on the discs is much faster. I push a screw driver between the old pads to compress the piston, pull off the cotter pin, undo the screw that holds them in, slide out the old, slide in the new, reinstall screw and pin, install wheel and squeeze the lever. Sounds like more work but calipers require aligning the pads, toeing them in, releasing the previously taken up cable with the barrel adjuster or the fixing bolt, recentering the caliper and adjusting the cable to the new pads. If the pads have spacers, conical washers or in the case of V-brakes lots of both, it gets tedious not dropping those putting the pad fixing bolt in place. Cantis can be the worst with the straddle cable and getting the pads the same settings on both sides. Considering discs can go years with no trouble, I like them.
I'm a little beyond chubby and will really push the braking on my bike in the woods, fade has yet to be an issue.
What is a lot contact point? Not certain I've seen this one. As I mentioned above, with hydraulics centering and bleeding is quick and easy. Centering with cable disc can be annoying, but a properly set up thru axle bike really doesn't have disc issues in my experience.
Good sig line
#69
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,281
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8275 Post(s)
Liked 9,031 Times
in
4,471 Posts
A more realistic comparison would be to compare the heat generated during a long, steep descent. When I'm on my mtb, the bike is 14 pounds heavier than my road bike plus I am carrying a Camelbak and the descents are steeper and I need hard braking to save my ass more often than on a road ride.
When riding we use the brakes to control speed. We don't just get up to speed and then stop over and over.
Likes For big john:
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked 262 Times
in
164 Posts
Rim brakes are brick simple, most issues can be fixed by the rider on the fly good enough to finish the race with minimal time loss. Issues with disk brakes / rotors that would cause any extra unwanted friction (rubbing) may not be so simple in the context of professional racing. How important is braking to a professional rider?
Likes For grizzly59:
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,281
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8275 Post(s)
Liked 9,031 Times
in
4,471 Posts
Rim brakes are brick simple, most issues can be fixed by the rider on the fly good enough to finish the race with minimal time loss. Issues with disk brakes / rotors that would cause any extra unwanted friction (rubbing) may not be so simple in the context of professional racing. How important is braking to a professional rider?
Having watched a bit of racing, a pro racer trying to fix anything is usually ludicrous. They are seldom able to get their chain back on.
Likes For big john:
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Rim brakes are brick simple, most issues can be fixed by the rider on the fly good enough to finish the race with minimal time loss. Issues with disk brakes / rotors that would cause any extra unwanted friction (rubbing) may not be so simple in the context of professional racing. How important is braking to a professional rider?
Rubbing with discs is almost always a non-issue with regard to sapping energy - kissing a high spot on a rotor makes an annoying noise, but it's nothing like a rubber brake pad dragging on a rim. You need to forcefully sandwich a rotor to brake - compared to rim brakes, there's less friction between the rotor/pad and there's rotor deflection if the pressure is only coming from one side.
And yeah - who needs brakes? They only slow you down, amiright?
Likes For WhyFi:
#74
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,281
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8275 Post(s)
Liked 9,031 Times
in
4,471 Posts
I faded the rear brake once on a long, steep drop, one of the ones you can't actually stop on unless you lay it down. It got pretty exciting when the lever went all the way to the bar. Luckily I was close to the bottom and there was plenty of run out. If I was going to do it over I would have just locked the rear wheel for most of it, the surface was soft and loose.
My newer mtb has cheap Shimano brakes and they have never faded.