Jughed

A different perspective - many of us are saying what we would do or wouldn't do - but have never been remotely close to his situation.

(and keep in mind, doping back then was everywhere. There were steroids in my HS wrestling and football team locker rooms, roids in the gym, institutional doping on national levels - it was flat everywhere- pro sports, college sports, olympic sports, recreational sports - flat out everywhere).

-You are one of the most gifted athletes born
-You are also one of the most driven people
-You attain local and regional celebrity at a very young age
-You begin to have success at an international level at a very young age
-Your popularity grows.
-You start to have success and gain even more attention.
-You have a major setback or illness and the world is watching
-You emerge from your illness, get back on the horse - and doping is a part of that equation. As it is for the majority of sports at that time, and for the majority of athletes.

-After this illness - you win the superbowl right out of the gate.

The train has now left the station and you are strapped in for the ride, and may even be helping to drive the train.

-You are now involved with what is probably billions in potential earnings for your corporate sponsors, the sport, your own ventures.

-This grows exponentially on the shoulders of your success.

-You are now a world wide celebrity, a household name - and you are in your early 20's.

-The majority of, the overwhelming majority of, people around you, that sponsor you, that allow you to race - know exactly what is going on.

-The majority of, the overwhelming majority of, people racing you - are doing just about the exact same things to win.



I'm gussing that none of us have any where near the talent, the abilities, the dedication and the drive of any of these athletes, and nowhere near anything that LA had. We were never exposed to the celebrity, the money, the power, none of it.

But as old men sitting behind a keyboard - we are quick to take a position that we wouldn't be caught up in something similar. We would just walk away from our talent, from the celebrity, from the money, from the women (or men), at the tender age of the early 20's.

What did y'all expect the man to do? Step back and say - welp, my masseuse caught me, its all over - the jig is up... and just walk away from a billion dollar industry that is being carried by your young shoulders? Is that what y'all would do? Just up and confess, walk away and blow it all up?

Germany_chris

Folks it's been 18 years since his last big bike race, you gotta let it go at some point.

I was more of an Ullrich guy myself but ehhh...

seypat

I think people would like to/have let it go. Then a thread like this pops up. People don't need to hear about someone's serious man crush.

Jughed

All of those guys were epic. The rivalry, the racing, the stories, the downfall... If only Jan could have put down the hookers and blow in the offseason!! He could have, and should have destroyed everyone.

At least in the US - they catapulted the sport into the mainstream. Without them being what they were - like giants on bikes - without Lance being Lance - the tour for many people would just be some obscure event in a far away place.


Lets face it - bike racing is pretty darn boring and tedious to watch. As is most racing, Nascar is a great example and parallel. Dale Earnhardt, #3 - the intimidator - knew the sport was essentially boring to all but the most avid fans. He knew that racing needed characters, good guys and bad guys, story lines, rivalries - without it, the event becomes what it is today - dead. To draw the big audience, to gain new fans and keep their attention, more than racing is required. A pro wrestling aspect is required... Lance/Jan/Marco... they fit that bill.

seypat

It's a good thing for LA that the LetsRun website didn't get started till 2000. They are relentless at outing cheaters. As relentless as the terminators. All of the cheaters would have been outed quickly.

jon c. 

Everyone lies and cheats and we all would have done the same thing given the opportunity. Honor and decency are antiquated concepts. Winning is all that matters and cheating to win really isn't a bad thing. It's the norm and we should just accept it.

Yes, I'm an old man. And seeing such moral relativisim become the accepted stance in our society makes me glad of that. If this is what we're teaching our children I'm happy that I won't be around to see the full impact of the world we have created.

I understand there has always been cheating and dishonesty but I find it disheartening that so many now think we should just accept it.

Harold74

I feel that is a salient point. One that I'll add my own spin to.

When I look around the world for other examples of Lance-esque behavior, I see it from politicians, celebrities, athletes, and the wealthy (Eppstein?). It seems that any *****apien endowed with significant power has a greatly increased probability of being or becoming a self serving, manipulative, bully. This seems to human nature. As such, I feel that those of us who have never wielded anything close to Lance-esque levels of power make dubious judges of his moral decision making.

There's a band of bonobo chimps in Africa that picked a plot of land so productive that:

1) They can collect their daily calories in a couple of hours, leaving massive amounts of time available for leisure.

2) Their infant mortality rate is actually lower than that of the nearest human settlement.

So what do these bonobos do with all that leisure time? The high status chimps use it to torment the low status chimps. Statistically, if you're a bonobo and you have a miserable life, that is so because another bonobo has taken it upon himself to bring that outcome about.

Humans behaving badly isn't just a feature of modern living. It was a feature of prehistoric living that persists to this day.

I sympathize with Lance because, truly, I do not believe that I am morally superior to Lance. Given that, it would be hypocritical of me not to sympathize with Lance.

Jughed

I'm not saying we should just accept it...

I'm saying that many people are being very judgmental about what x or y person did - without ever being in that position themselves.

Who here had a billion dollar industry resting on their shoulders and have to defend themselves against a masseuse and a teammates wife?

If one watches the sport/sports - they are not only accepting the cheating, they are supporting it financially. And as long as prize/sponsorship money is in play - people/teams will angle for competitive advantages.

Jughed

It's a fact of life - on different levels, the least agreeable personality types are typically the most successful people.

tomato coupe

Most people that achieve "Lance-esque" levels of power are not self-serving, manipulative bullies. So, yes, we can judge his decision making and lack of morals because most of us would not act the same.

tomato coupe

No, they aren't.

livedarklions

Yes, I think we're on the same page. TBH, I'm glad you're with us to discuss your feelings. I have heard a lot of cancer survivors express anger at the way he used his cancer and charity in such a dishonest way. Not being there, I can only imagine that this is a lot more complicated issue on an emotional for you, and I totally respect that.

Jughed

See, your trying to be successful in the general forum by being disagreeable!!


/sarcasm/ //bazinga//

But think about it - the principle works on many levels. From employees that sit and accept what the company is giving them at face value, to an employee that doesn't and demands more for their services. The latter is less agreeable and typically sees bigger personal gains. The level is on a sliding scale and based on talent/what a person has to offer - but people that see high personal gains are less agreeable. They don't take no for an answer or simply accept life as it's presented to them.

LesterOfPuppets

He won Leadville in 2018.

I guess road race fans wouldn't call that a big race though.

I haven't heard of him doing any other offroad endurance races. Maybe they started testing

Harold74

My logic was not circular. The circular logic is shown in bold in your statement above. However, those words are yours and not mine. They are your incorrect recap of my argument.

My logic was linear and was this: [MOST CYCLISTS WERE DOPING AND LYING BOUT IT] --> [PROBABILITY (GREG DOPING & LYING) >> 0]

So you're being deliberately insulting? That again, is Lance-esque bullying and no way to prosecute a rational debate.

Okay, what is ridiculous about that argument? Add some logical meat to the insult, please.

I have no mysterious psychological need for Lemond to be guilty. I consider Lemond and Armstrong to both be role models of sorts even if both are manipulative, lying, dopers. I simply feel that Lance's perception of LeMond's potential doping forms part of the context in which Lance made his behavioral choices. In this sense, it barely matters whether or not LeMond was guilty. What matters is whether or not Lance would have perceived him to be guilty and, therefore, a hypocrite. Like me, I suspect that Lance did suspect LeMond's guilt.

Seriously? Your resting your defense of LeMond on the Freudian psychoanalysis of a stranger over the internet now? And somehow that's more acceptable as a form of argument than a rational discussion of logical probabilities?

Harold74

The argument was not that "most" powerful people behave badly. The argument was that the percentage of bad actors is larger amongst the powerful that it is amongst the commoners. Is that really something that you dispute?

tomato coupe

You can find an example of any behavior leading to any outcome, but that doesn't make your generalization accurate.

Harold74

Absolutely. Considered in the extreme, sociopaths are known to make a disproportionate percentage of these groups:

1) The incarcerated and;
2) The highly successful.

I don't think that it's a stretch to argue that an irrational level of self worth / self confidence may well be a requirement for the level of success achieved by someone like Lance.

The colloquialism "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" didn't come from nowhere.

Speaking of Armstrong's, I believe that Neil Armstrong was actually selected, in part, because of the elements of sociopathy in his personality. When used to positive effect, we call this trait "being cool under pressure". The less flattering version is "doesn't care enough about the outcome to get rattled". It's a good feature in a test pilot / astronaut.

Jughed

Either Lemond was superhuman - beating a peloton that was ripe with roids, speed, coke and anything else these competitors could stuff into their gizzards - or he was doing the same.

I have a hard time believing that one person is superhuman, over and above all of the other freaks of nature that occupy the top levels of sport.

BillyD

They would still be on these forums condemning the guy, because as has been evident from day 1 of the revelation of cheating, they are basically just heart broken and traumatized that their idol betrayed their belief in him.

Human beings, by nature, are an imperfect species. Just recognize that and let it go. The guy has been exposed and punished, yet many people want him treated like he's the worst person who ever walked the earth. It's only sports forchrissakes!

Carbonfiberboy 

Uh . . .I guess you don't follow politics much. Or watch what most of the ultra-wealthy do. As it is said, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Historically, there might be one or two people for whom this was not true. We hope we would not act like that but history disagrees. "Mortal Republic" and "The German War" are good reads in these times.

livedarklions

So basically, if he had needed to murder children to keep this going, that would have been ok because we can't say for sure we wouldn't murder children if we were in the same situation? No, he engaged in campaigns to ruin people who tried to call him out, he committed several felonies along the way, and I don't subscribe to the idea that his talent and illness privilege him to act like a sociopath without consequences. Don't do the crime if you can't do the damn time.

tomato coupe

The behavior that makes headlines is not representative of everyone.

Koyote

Even aside from the doping (and the consequent character assassination, threats, and extortion while attempting to keep his doping secret), he just seems like a lousy person. Remember when he got drunk, crashed his car, and let his girlfriend take the rap? And they say that chivalry is dead.

I'm not saying he's "the worst person who ever walked the earth," but he doesn't seem like a good person.

BillyD

I agree with him when he points out that you can't make that judgement because none of us have ever been in that skin. We have no idea how we would act with that kind of fame and fortune. It changes a person.