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This will turn out to be the best Lance interview on record.

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This will turn out to be the best Lance interview on record.

Old 06-07-23, 11:34 AM
  #176  
Jughed
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I already posed the same question to BillyD , and I'll pose it to you: if we can't judge people whose lives (backgrounds, experiences, level of wealth, etc) are different from our own, then how should we deal with any criminals? After all, we're each unique, different from one another.

I'm really interested in a response to this question...though I don't expect one. When people on bf are wrong or absurd, they usually go silent rather than answer for it.
I'm guessing they go silent because they know there is no real reason to continue a discussion with someone that's calling them flat wrong or absurd - that's not really the basis of a discussion - that's just someone making absolute statements about a person in the discussion. Discuss points/counterpoints or just tell the other person they are flat wrong... see how the second part isn't conducive to further discussion?

Judgements and dealing with criminals are a matter of the legal system. Facts get presented, disputed, thrown out - jury and judge make the call... internet discussions and calling people out for something - not a criminal case or official proceeding. The way I discuss that type of thing - relate the judgement to myself and what may I have done it that situation. Rather than just flat slamming someone that was in a situation I have zero clue about being involved with.

We have no idea about the entire situation. Lance may have been under pressure from the companies backing him - they may have been helping him fight back, telling him to fight back - again, there was a crap pot full of money involved that effected all parties, racing, sponsors, the team, LA himself... all of them had some interest in stopping the accusations - we have zero clue if Lance was the sole source of the fight, or if he was a puppet.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:36 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
So wait, you're saying that the standards for justifying saying nasty things about someone on social media should be higher than justifying locking them up in prison? What the what?!
No, that is not even remotely what I'm saying. I'm saying that moral judgment must, rationally, take context into account even if legal judgement cannot.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:42 AM
  #178  
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I don't have any strong feelings towards Lance - neither for nor against him. He's just a regular person with his own flaws. However, he's an incredibly competitive individual. There's some remarkable footage of him racing in a professional IronMan competition when he was only 15. He was up with Mike Pigg and Mark Allen, the best at the time and leading the race. During the middle of the race, both Pigg and Allen were criticizing him for various things, but he didn't take it lying down. Instead, he boldly told them both to F off. This behaviour isn't typical of a 15-year-old, nor are his impressive abilities. It's like trying to tame a great white shark - you already know the outcome. Insert this individual into a dirty and corrupt sport, and we can all see the result. Interesting side note both Pigg and Allen are friends with Armstrong to this day.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:45 AM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I'll retract my comment if you explain how a person can "accidentally" stab another person.
Sure. You break into someone's house to steel food expecting to be confronted by no one. Instead, you wind up being confronted by someone. In self defense, or simply to avoid being caught in the future, you stab. This is an "accident" in the sense that it is an outcome that you didn't anticipate and did not want to manifest. Whether or not you should have anticipated the outcome is, of course, another matter.

Perhaps you would have been more comfortable with the phrase "unintended consequence"?

Regardless, such a minor semantic quibble hardly seems sufficient justification to insult me by suggesting that I'm a blowhard with nothing to say worth hearing.

Keep your retraction, I've no need of it.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:46 AM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Eric F
This thread will do nothing to change anyone's current opinion/judgement of Lance Armstrong.
Preach it brother!
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Old 06-07-23, 11:48 AM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Jughed
... we have zero clue if Lance was the sole source of the fight, or if he was a puppet.
I think there is quite a bit more than "zero" clue about that.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:49 AM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by Jughed
I'm guessing they go silent because they know there is no real reason to continue a discussion with someone that's calling them flat wrong or absurd - that's not really the basis of a discussion - that's just someone making absolute statements about a person in the discussion. Discuss points/counterpoints or just tell the other person they are flat wrong... see how the second part isn't conducive to further discussion?
The argument that we can't judge other people is patently absurd, as we do it all the time -- we do it when choosing romantic partners, when hiring/firing/promoting people in the workplace, when voting for political candidates, when convicting criminals (or finding people to be not guilty), etc etc etc. To claim that we can't do that is to deny reality. We may do it imperfectly, but that was not the argument: they argued that we can't judge other people if their life circumstances have been different from our own.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:51 AM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I'm really interested in a response to this question...though I don't expect one. When people on bf are wrong or absurd, they usually go silent rather than answer for it.
I responded to that politely and in detail back in post #165. I'll repeat that here for your convenience.

Originally Posted by Harold74
That is an interesting point. I previously considered suggesting that Lance should only be judged by a jury of his peers and that that we are NOT his peers. I refrained because I suspected that someone would counter that with your argument. But, since the cat is out of the bag, I'll try to counter the jurisprudence argument:

The legal system makes the assumption that we are all created equal even though, in a philosophical / practical sense, no one believes that we are remotely equal with respect to our talents and circumstances. This is necessary because, as you say, what else would we do that would be even remotely fair and still maintain social order?

Our legal system is designed to do to many things but one of them is to protect the weak from the strong, the common from the powerful. That is both fair and necessary but, at the same time, I don't feel that the intent of it is to suggest that a common person in a common situation can really be a fair judge of a powerful person in an exceptional situation. And vice versa really.

Should a materially desperate person be forgiven for breaking into my house, steeling food for her kids, and accidentally stabbing my kid when confronted? Yes, surely. Can the law tolerate that and still be expected to maintain order? Surely not.

From a power perspective, this is the inverse of Lance's case: circumstances matter when it comes to moral judgement, even if they cannot be considered when it comes to legal judgement.​​​​​​
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Old 06-07-23, 11:53 AM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
I responded to that politely and in detail back in post #165. I'll repeat that here for your convenience.
If I ever stab someone, I sure hope you're on the jury. I'll just say, "oops! My bad!"

'bye, now.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:54 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
The argument that we can't judge other people is patently absurd, as we do it all the time -- we do it when choosing romantic partners, when hiring/firing/promoting people in the workplace, when voting for political candidates, when convicting criminals (or finding people to be not guilty), etc etc etc. To claim that we can't do that is to deny reality. We may do it imperfectly, but that was not the argument: they argued that we can't judge other people if their life circumstances have been different from our own.
The argument never was that we can't judge people. The argument was that we can't judge them perfectly. That's it. Just what you said in your last sentence above.

Obviously, the further the experience of the judge from the judged, the more imperfect we can expect the judgment to be.
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Old 06-07-23, 11:58 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
'bye, now.
Yes, take your marbles and run. Standard protocol for bullies when they feel that the bullying is not going their way. Particularly sad after this challenge:

Originally Posted by Koyote
I'm really interested in a response to this question...though I don't expect one. When people on bf are wrong or absurd, they usually go silent rather than answer for it.
You got your response. Why not defend it rather than skip town?
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Old 06-07-23, 12:01 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
If I ever stab someone, I sure hope you're on the jury. I'll just say, "oops! My bad!"
Yes, it would be great if I were on the jury because, consistent with my post:

1) I would send you to jail and;

2) Sympathize with you morally if your circumstances merited it.

What more could you, or society, want / expect?
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Old 06-07-23, 12:07 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
The argument never was that we can't judge people. The argument was that we can't judge them perfectly.
No it wasn't.
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Old 06-07-23, 12:14 PM
  #189  
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There is enough readily-available information about Lance for us to make our own judgement about how we feel about him and his actions. We may not agree in our judgements because they are influenced by our personal set of standards for acceptable behavior. Despite not being in the same situation as Lance, and having to make those decisions for ourselves, I don't think that excludes us from examining the information and making our own determination about how we feel. After all, we aren't a jury in a court of law. We are a bunch of bike-nut dingbats arguing on a discussion forum. (IMO, YMMV)
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Old 06-07-23, 12:19 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
The argument never was that we can't judge people. The argument was that we can't judge them perfectly.
No, that was not the argument, as evidenced below:

Originally Posted by BillyD
I agree with him when he points out that you can't make that judgement because none of us have ever been in that skin. We have no idea how we would act with that kind of fame and fortune. It changes a person.
​​​​​​And I'm not leaving this thread because I'm a bully, or because I can't defend my points, or whatever you're claiming; I'm leaving because you don't seem capable of putting together succinct and cogent arguments, and -- as in this case, and also others -- you don't seem able to follow others' arguments. And since you are the lone person keeping this thread going, there's no point in sticking around.
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Old 06-07-23, 12:27 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
No it wasn't.
Yes, it was. I can't help it you "hear" binary / absolute when others speak continuum / nuance. That's a you thing. I don't think that anyone here is arguing that Lance is a man completely devoid of flaws.

The question here is not whether or not Lance will be judged. He is. The questions is what that judgement will be. And that involves nuance.

You seem to make a habit o issuing terse statements without supplying justification.
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Old 06-07-23, 12:30 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
You seem to be implying that bike racing would be boring if the competitors were ethical and moral in their dealings with other people. That's pure BS.


That's more BS. Great discoveries do not require that the people behind them act in unethical and immoral ways.
You are saying "immoral" and "unethical". I did not. Thou does imply too much.
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Old 06-07-23, 12:33 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
Yes, it was. I can't help it you "hear" binary / absolute when others speak continuum / nuance. That's a you thing. I don't think that anyone here is arguing that Lance is a man completely devoid of flaws.

The question here is not whether or not Lance will be judged. He is. The questions is what that judgement will be. And that involves nuance.

You seem to make a habit o issuing terse statements without supplying justification.
A terse statement is all that's warranted for verifiably false statements.
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Old 06-07-23, 12:35 PM
  #194  
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In my opinion Mr. Armstrong's greatest achievement was to create 'the look' so beloved of Cat 6 racers everywhere. Whatever our views might be on his conduct generally, on that we can surely agree and for that we can be truly thankful.
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Old 06-07-23, 12:41 PM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
You are saying "immoral" and "unethical". I did not. Thou does imply too much.
If you were trying to state that bike racing would be boring without competitiveness, then you are right. But, the criticisms of LA are due to his unethical / immoral / corrupt behavior, and that is the context that your post was made.
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Old 06-07-23, 01:14 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
A terse statement is all that's warranted for verifiably false statements.
Then show us this verifiably false statement and, ideally, do the verifying. The rest of us do the heavy lifting of presenting arguments to support our conclusions. I don't see why you feel that you deserve a free pass and, rather, expect to have your statements received as fact simply because it's you making the statements.
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Old 06-07-23, 01:22 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
livedarklions : to recap, you've thus far implied that I am a despicable, babbling, b*ll****ting, scummy, idiot. All that, and you'll not find a single example of me launching these kind of value based, personal attacks on you or anyone else.

Do you really feel that you are qualified to sit in judgment of Lance Armstrong's bullying when, clearly, you are incapable of recognizing the bully that stares back at you from the mirror?

To be clear, I have studied probabilities, logic, evidence, and moral philosophy, and I'm very sorry that you are babbling incoherently (literally, none of your arguments cohere) on those subjects to support a morally despicable groundless accusation against someone. It is not bullying when I point that out. I don't think you're stupid, so I can only assume you are engaging in this sophistry intentionally and are aware that none of what you're saying really adds up to anything even worth discussing further.

To be clear--I am of the opinion that maligning Lemond in the manner you are is an immoral, nasty thing to do. If you find my telling you that to be "bullying", that's on you, not me. I hope this is out of character for you, but I really don't have patience for people who can dish out groundless accusations then can't take the inevitable backlash that will provoke. I'm really not wasting any more time I'm sure you'll whine about being bullied one more time.

You started this argument by posting your "thoughts" on Greg LeMond in response to a posting of mine that merely mentioned LeMond in passing. I'm not even a big fan of GL, but I definitely find arguments that someone should be assumed to be guilty because specious reasons to be morally offensive. I will freely insult such arguments because I don't believe those arguments should be given any respect whatsoever. If you don't want your argument to be called "scummy", don't make scummy arguments.
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Old 06-07-23, 01:39 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
The argument never was that we can't judge people.
Originally Posted by Koyote
No, that was not the argument, as evidenced below:
Originally Posted by BillyD
I agree with him when he points out that you can't make that judgement because none of us have ever been in that skin. We have no idea how we would act with that kind of fame and fortune. It changes a person.
Koyote Let me get this straight: so you are contesting whether or not I correctly conveyed the intent of my own arguments based on somebody else's statements? If my my intent is somehow still not clear, then rest assured that it is this:

Originally Posted by Harold74
The argument never was that we can't judge people. The argument was that we can't judge them perfectly.
Originally Posted by Koyote
And I'm not leaving this thread because I'm a bully, or because I can't defend my points, or whatever you're claiming.
That is exactly what I am claiming. If your intent was to make a gracious exit, then it might have been better to forgo the dramatic announcement of your exit which was, effectively, to wave your middle finger in the air as you scurried off. No doubt running into a lamp post along the way.

Originally Posted by Koyote
'bye, now.
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Old 06-07-23, 01:45 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
Koyote Let me get this straight: so you are contesting whether or not I correctly conveyed the intent of my own arguments based on somebody else's statements? If my my intent is somehow still not clear, then rest assured that it is this:





That is exactly what I am claiming. If your intent was to make a gracious exit, then it might have been better to forgo the dramatic announcement of your exit which was, effectively, to wave your middle finger in the air as you scurried off. No doubt running into a lamp post along the way.

...and another loser gets added to the ignore list
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Old 06-07-23, 01:45 PM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by Harold74
Then show us this verifiably false statement and, ideally, do the verifying. The rest of us do the heavy lifting of presenting arguments to support our conclusions. I don't see why you feel that you deserve a free pass and, rather, expect to have your statements received as fact simply because it's you making the statements.
Terse response.
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