tendency

lord have mercy it appears i have a dishing problem on my new rear wheel that i just built up. swear i double checked and put the short spokes on drive side .. but this cant be right (and yes, dish tool arms are both flat on rim)?

darkhorse75

What are your tensions at? You could move the rim over by tensioning the driveside more and/or detensioning the non-drive side.

tendency

i've already done that -- jacked drive side quite a bit and lowered non-drive but pretty much have the same spacing.

Chuck M 

I've never built a wheel so this is purely spitballing... But did you by chance get the wrong length spokes?

tendency

spoke lenghts are correct - i've triple checked with a wheelbuilder.

Andrew R Stewart 

My thoughts are- you could simply pull a spoke from the LH side and measure it to see if you got the proper lengths on the correct sides. You could just loosen all the spokes and restart the tensioning/dishing process but with the rim "over dished" and pull the rim into correct dish with only tensioning the LH side.
It sounds like you trusted the spoke lengths and then nipple turns to insure your first attempt to center the rim. If you got the spoke lengths on the other sides of the wheel then your results make sense. I like to check the aprox dish long before there's any real tension on the spokes, just enough tension to roughly true the rim. Andy

fishboat

Keep going, you're not that far out.

I'm guessing the answer is no, but do you have an accurate tensiometer? If you're new to this it may be tough for you to appreciate/estimate where your tensions are at. You may have a ways to go on the drive side(tensioning it up) and not know how much.

The non-drive side tension is a slave to the drive side. The non-drive side tension will be whatever it will to end up with a properly dished, true, & round wheel. Get the drive side right and non-drive side is what it is.

tendency

I do have a tensionmeter and the l/r side spokes are tensioned very similarly to another rear wheel i have that has the same dimensioned spokes and is dished correctly.

tendency

My DS spokes are so tight i can barely turn the nipples .. so, not sure i want to keep going.

fishboat

Then you probably shouldn't. That's the issue with not knowing where you're at with accurate tensions. With an accurate tension meter and monitoring where you're at with respect to uniform tension between spokes on each side and the overall tension on the drive side, you wouldn't have ended up where you are. No worries..it's fixable. Well-experienced wheel builders will say this(a tensiometer) isn't needed(and they are right, for them), however this is sort of like the old joke, Question: "..how do I make a million dollars?", Answer: "...well, you start with a million dollars and then you invest it in...."

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...on-meters.html

You're locked into where you are. At this point I'd back the tension off on both sides by one or two or three revolutions of the spoke wrench(just go around the wheel and back off each spoke by one revolution..then do a second lap and a third if needed. DON'T back off the tensions by skipping to the end by backing off each spoke two or three revolutions at one time..I speak from experience..). Put a piece of tape on one spoke as a reference so you know what one revolution of the wheel is. It'll be easier if you keep things uniform during the entire build within each side spokes and between both side. If you jump around between spokes and sides and tighten things here and there, you'll be chasing your tail for a long time.

Once you've backed off the tensions on both sides, fix the dishing while you can. Then tighten the spokes up uniformly in a series of trips around the wheel while monitoring radial and lateral true and dish as you go.

Roger Musson's e-book will walk you through the process. Follow him step by step and it's relatively easy to do. A good tensiometer makes things MUCH easier. It's the ultimate referee to tell you where you're at in the process, where you need to go, and how to get there. (I have a long history in instrumentaion..so I'm probably biased toward using instruments.)

cxwrench

Why are you posting here and waiting for replies? Take a spoke from the DS and one from the NDS and check. Doesn't get much easier or quicker than that.

tendency

yeah, well, that means tearin' the f***er apart which i was hoping to avoid..

zandoval 

Yep... That's the way it is. I got discombobulated on a wheel just like this. With good frustration I loosened everything up and put it aside for a few days. I then pulled it out and trued it up perfectly without difficulty... Go Figure... Ha

79pmooney

My thoughts also. I'd loosen the spokes a lot, esp the left side, true the wheel to round with just the right side, tighten the right side to most of the proper tension, then start cranking the rim to the proper dish with the left, always checking that right side doesn't get too tight. (You do have either a Park or similar tension gauge or a good built wheel with similar rim and spokes I trust. Otherwise you are just shooting in the dark.)

I love modern spokes and the wonderful uniformity. But I still check tensions throughout the build and start the dish on derailleur wheels very early. Yes, I do shorter spokes for the right rear but it would never occur to me to think that gave me the right dish.

Edit: My cassettes and freewheels never go on until the wheel is finished and by that time I've checked the dish multiple times.

fishboat

I doubt the OP would have gotten as far as he did if he switched the spoke-sides. I'm assuming a 2mm difference between drive and non-drive side spokes.

OP..look at the outside edge of the drive side nipples..are spokes sticking out? If so how much? If the spokes are the right length they shouldn't be threaded past the outside edge of the nipple.

pdlamb

Not at all. Think of it as "I broke one spoke on each side and I'm going to replace those two spokes" and, while you're at it, label and measure the two spokes. The other 30 or 34 spokes will wait.

Iride01 

So if you know a wheel builder, and they are somewhat clued in to the ERD and spoke hole diameters and whatever else needs to be known about the wheel... then have you ask them where the mistake might be?

fishboat

Measure the ERD yourself..even posted ERDs by the mfg can be wrong (example.. H Plus Son Archetype). Make sure you account for all thicknesses in the process(rim thickness, nipple head..). I wouldn't depend on someone's estimated ERD..they have nothing at stake. Every spoke seller I've run across state up front that spokes are not returnable. "Measure twice, order once.."

cxwrench

No, not at all. Just remove one from each side. Not a big deal at all.

tendency

Thanks all I fixed it. Just tore the entire wheel apart and rebuilt it this time paying much more attention to measuring the dish as i tensioned the spokes. Turns out I was also tightening the wrong side of spokes when attempting to properly dish the wheel.

Thanks for all the advice!

smd4

Yep, that'll do it.

cxwrench

You were tightening the NDS spokes, and checking tension on the DS?

ClydeClydeson

RE. Tightening spoke A then checking for a change in tension on spoke B

I've made the same mistake when tuning my guitar. 'Why won't this damn string get up closer to G!', followed by a loud SNAP as the B string I was inadvertently tightening reaches its breaking point.

CroMo Mike 

Two observations on using a dishing gauge:

(1) The amount of dishing error indicated by the gauge is actually twice the amount that the rim needs to be moved left or right. As you move the rim laterally by adjusting the spokes, the indicated dishing error decreases on one side and increases on the other side. In the pictures above, an error of about 1/4" really only needs the rim to be moved 1/8".

(2) If the wheel isn't reasonably true laterally, you may get inaccurate results with the dish gauge, depending on how far the rim is out of true at the points where the dish gauge is contacting the rim.