Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Living Car Free
Reload this Page >

The end of car culture?

Notices
Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

The end of car culture?

Old 07-02-13, 06:24 AM
  #1  
ironwood
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston area
Posts: 2,039

Bikes: 1984 Bridgestone 400 1985Univega nouevo sport 650b conversion 1993b'stone RBT 1985 Schwinn Tempo

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 542 Post(s)
Liked 151 Times in 100 Posts
The end of car culture?

This was in the NYT

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/su...e.html?hp&_r=o
ironwood is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 11:12 AM
  #2  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Interesting article. It might be premature to announce a long term trend, but there are clear indications that car culture is declining among the young. Apparently heavy cell phone usage is taking time away from driving. That's great, as long as they don't try to do both at once.
__________________

"Think Outside the Cage"
Roody is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 02:41 PM
  #3  
FenderTL5
Senior Member
 
FenderTL5's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Nashville TN
Posts: 794

Bikes: Trek 7.3FX, Diamondback Edgewood hybrid, KHS Montana

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
one of today's headlines:
[h=2]U.S. Car Sales Pace Hits Five Year High[/h]https://stream.wsj.com/story/markets/SS-2-5/SS-2-267367/

It appears that a large portion of the sales are work/fleet vehicles.
FenderTL5 is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 08:33 PM
  #4  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,951

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by ironwood
So was this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/03/bu...uto-sales.html
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 08:33 PM
  #5  
Dahon.Steve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 7,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by ironwood
We keep seeing more articles like this but with additional studies and stats. I believe what's keeping many more people from leaving the car culture is the lack of public transportation. We have to hope that population migration back to urban/transit centers continues for the next 25 years.
Dahon.Steve is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 10:14 PM
  #6  
cooker
Prefers Cicero
 
cooker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,870

Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3939 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times in 87 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
That article says that sales are starting to get back to 2007-8 levels. But it also says a lot of that is overdue fleet replacement or private car replacement that was deferred during the recession, so it might not be sign of growing long term demand. Also, it doesn't take into account population growth since then, so it doesn't present any clear evidence that contradicts the notion that fewer young people are moving into car ownership than in past times. Only time will tell if that trend is permanent.
cooker is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 10:25 PM
  #7  
Mobile 155
Senior Member
 
Mobile 155's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058

Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by cooker
That article says that sales are starting to get back to 2007-8 levels. But it also says a lot of that is overdue fleet replacement or private car replacement that was deferred during the recession, so it might not be sign of growing long term demand. Also, it doesn't take into account population growth since then, so it doesn't present any clear evidence that contradicts the notion that fewer young people are moving into car ownership than in past times. Only time will tell if that trend is permanent.
But it does indicate, like the story about Jackie Chan, the car culture is far from dead.
Mobile 155 is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 10:34 PM
  #8  
cooker
Prefers Cicero
 
cooker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,870

Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3939 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times in 87 Posts
Originally Posted by Mobile 155
But it does indicate, like the story about Jackie Chan, the car culture is far from dead.
It's just a silly headline. The article doesn't make any such claim.
cooker is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 10:43 PM
  #9  
Mobile 155
Senior Member
 
Mobile 155's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058

Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by cooker
It's just a silly headline. The article doesn't make any such claim.
Still it was the thrust of the thread title. Do you know what the high water mark for the bike culture was in the US? We still haven't reached the Adult sales figures from 1974-75. No one is posting the bike culture is over. I was just pointing out the headlines can and most often are just to make news, not report it.
Mobile 155 is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 11:14 PM
  #10  
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Posts: 24,221
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 711 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by cooker
That article says that sales are starting to get back to 2007-8 levels. But it also says a lot of that is overdue fleet replacement or private car replacement that was deferred during the recession, so it might not be sign of growing long term demand. Also, it doesn't take into account population growth since then, so it doesn't present any clear evidence that contradicts the notion that fewer young people are moving into car ownership than in past times. Only time will tell if that trend is permanent.
Good post. I agree that only time will tell, but I think the time will come within a year or two, barring another recession.

I'm going to be looking at the percentage of people with DLs as a better indicator than car sales.

Transit ridership will also be an interesting figure to follow. This has increased steadily since the boom years of the late 1990s.
__________________

"Think Outside the Cage"
Roody is offline  
Old 07-02-13, 11:55 PM
  #11  
DX-MAN
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,788
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Honestly, I couldn't care less if more cars were sold or not; all I really care about re: cars is, WILL THEY DRIVE THEM INTELLIGENTLY? My experience says NOT.
DX-MAN is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 12:35 AM
  #12  
Ekdog
Senior Member
 
Ekdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403

Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Roody
Transit ridership will also be an interesting figure to follow. This has increased steadily since the boom years of the late 1990s.
But, given the pathetic state of mass transit in the United States, it seems that massive investments would be in order if a move away from the motor car were truly under way, and, from I've been able to observe, the focus is still on subsidizing the automobile.
Ekdog is offline  
Likes For Ekdog:
Old 07-03-13, 02:43 AM
  #13  
RyderTheRider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by DX-MAN
Honestly, I couldn't care less if more cars were sold or not; all I really care about re: cars is, WILL THEY DRIVE THEM INTELLIGENTLY? My experience says NOT.
I agree with the intelligently, but the more people move away from cars, the more infrastructure spending can focus on other modes of transport.
RyderTheRider is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 05:11 AM
  #14  
ironwood
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Boston area
Posts: 2,039

Bikes: 1984 Bridgestone 400 1985Univega nouevo sport 650b conversion 1993b'stone RBT 1985 Schwinn Tempo

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 542 Post(s)
Liked 151 Times in 100 Posts
Originally Posted by Mobile 155
Still it was the thrust of the thread title. Do you know what the high water mark for the bike culture was in the US? We still haven't reached the Adult sales figures from 1974-75. No one is posting the bike culture is over. I was just pointing out the headlines can and most often are just to make news, not report it.
I think the high water mark of the US bike culture was from the 1890s to WWI, or somewhere in that period. I wasn't around then. However, I was around in the seventies. True, there were a lot of bikes sold in 1973, and there was the oil embargo, and then the shortage of gasoline in 1979, but I don't think there was a real bike culture. It was a period of rediscovery of the bicycle. In the fifties and early sixties adult cyclists were rare. One remark directed at me in 1963 was "How old are you?".

I did put a question mark in the title. Whether or not the car culture disappears, it is interesting to see that more young people do not feel they absolutely need a car.
ironwood is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 07:57 AM
  #15  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,528

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5219 Post(s)
Liked 3,564 Times in 2,331 Posts
my son asked for a car and doesn't care what kind it is, but he was very specific about which phone he wanted
rumrunn6 is offline  
Likes For rumrunn6:
Old 07-03-13, 09:42 AM
  #16  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,951

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by ironwood
Whether or not the car culture disappears, it is interesting to see that more young people do not feel they absolutely need a car.
More "end of car culture" news: https://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-e...150316490.html

Extract:
"Millennials do say they’re less interested in driving, but young people have never bought many new cars, anyhow. Polk’s data show that buyers between the ages of 18 and 34 accounted for 14.6% of all new car purchases in 2008. Today that has fallen to 11.4%. That’s a significant but unsurprising drop, since young workers have been hurt the most by the weak recovery and grueling job market. Once they get on their feet and start to build families, they may suddenly become more interested in sedans, wagons and even minivans. It’s also possible more young people are driving their parents’ cars, especially if they’ve moved into Mom and Dad’s basement to save money."
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 10:03 AM
  #17  
cooker
Prefers Cicero
 
cooker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,870

Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3939 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times in 87 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
More of the same speculation as all the cited article so far. Only time will tell.
cooker is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 12:00 PM
  #18  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,951

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by cooker
More of the same speculation as all the cited article so far. Only time will tell.
Exactly. All of the news articles recently cited on this topic refer to trends that may be transitory, and have often used cloudy crystal balls to fabricate misleading headlines.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 12:21 PM
  #19  
DX-MAN
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,788
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by RyderTheRider
I agree with the intelligently, but the more people move away from cars, the more infrastructure spending can focus on other modes of transport.
While I acknowledge your point, intelligent use will ease the need for alternate infrastructure. Overall, sure, I'd like to see more spent on transit, but intelligent car use can reduce the cost of maintaining what we already have, as well as expansion.
DX-MAN is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 12:49 PM
  #20  
alhedges
Senior Member
 
alhedges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Naptown
Posts: 1,133

Bikes: NWT 24sp DD; Brompton M6R

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 1 Post
I think that one of the main problems with these stories is that they are too general and too broad. The US is way too diverse and much too different from these kind of broad statistics to be meaningful.

For actually meaningful statistics, you have to look at the local level. If the modal share of bike commuters in your city has doubled in the past 5 years, that's going to be significant...at least for your community. If your city has added 100 miles of bike lanes and far more people are bicycling, that's going to be significant, too. Again, for your community.

But trying to divine whether statistics taken from the entire country are meaningful or not is much more difficult - an increase in biking in NY, SF, and Boston might be enough to nudge the car ownership metric down, but it won't really be significant for people who don't live in those communities...people who don't live in those communities may see no change at all.
alhedges is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 02:20 PM
  #21  
Mobile 155
Senior Member
 
Mobile 155's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058

Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by ironwood
I think the high water mark of the US bike culture was from the 1890s to WWI, or somewhere in that period. I wasn't around then. However, I was around in the seventies. True, there were a lot of bikes sold in 1973, and there was the oil embargo, and then the shortage of gasoline in 1979, but I don't think there was a real bike culture. It was a period of rediscovery of the bicycle. In the fifties and early sixties adult cyclists were rare. One remark directed at me in 1963 was "How old are you?".

I did put a question mark in the title. Whether or not the car culture disappears, it is interesting to see that more young people do not feel they absolutely need a car.
Because they were using absolute numbers in their speculation on the end of the car culture the only numbers you have for bikes is from the NBDA. For adult bikes the high water mark was 1974-75. Even with the increase in population we hadn't reached those numbers as of 2012. I am just pointing out the numbers are coming back a lot faster for the auto industry than they have so far for bicycles, in pure numbers. I just question the assumption that this tick signals the end of the car in the US. Not saying a turn isn't coming, just that unless we see what happens in a healthy economy this doesn't seem to mean much.
Mobile 155 is offline  
Old 07-03-13, 03:07 PM
  #22  
cooker
Prefers Cicero
 
cooker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,870

Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3939 Post(s)
Liked 112 Times in 87 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Exactly. All of the news articles recently cited on this topic refer to trends that may be transitory, and have often used cloudy crystal balls to fabricate misleading headlines.
Headlines are junk. Somebody in editorial adds them to grab attention, and half the time they misrepresent the article, as everybody in this thread understands, starting with the OP'er who put the question mark in the thread title for that very reason. The headline on the second article you posted ('Peak Driving' is looking like a myth) was not much better than the car culture one, since nobody has actually claimed that we've reached peak driving, so the headline was knocking down a straw man.
cooker is offline  
Old 07-09-13, 12:15 PM
  #23  
tandempower
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,355
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8084 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 14 Times in 13 Posts
I hate to be cynical but while I think the appeal of driving and car-ownership as a lifestyle may be receding culturally, the build up of sprawl in many areas has made the choice to go car-free more daunting. Probably the result of this will be a grumpy culture of young people who grudgingly get pressured into driving. Hopefully there will be progress but many older and more established people (i.e. parents) seem to view car-free living as simply impractical and, even if they're wrong (which I believe they are insofar as their perspectives are simply biased by living through the peak-growth period of sprawl-expansion), their dismissal of the possibility of cultural and economic change makes for an uphill battle.

What's more, it sometimes seems as if the areas where the most progress is being made to set precedents for car-free living attract the strongest opposition as well. It's almost as if there's an active network of people trying to prevent car-free living efforts from succeeding so they can live out their lives in the belief that driving is simply the only way to realistically get around locally.

The main hope, I think, is getting staunch driving-dominance supporters to realize that driving is so much better when traffic is light so it is only in their benefit for growing bike and pedestrian infrastructure to provide an alternative to driving so those who do drive have less traffic to deal with.

Somehow, though, many people seem to have this mindset that if some people give up driving than everyone will have to so better to herd everyone away from alternative choices to protect the automobile's dominance. It sounds insane when put this way but it seriously seems like this mentality is present in many people. Maybe it's just as simple as people getting self-conscious when others are changing but they aren't so they start talking up their aversions to car-free living to surround themselves with people who feel the same.
tandempower is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 08:05 PM
  #24  
gerv 
In the right lane
 
gerv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Des Moines
Posts: 9,565

Bikes: 1974 Huffy 3 speed

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by tandempower
I hate to be cynical but while I think the appeal of driving and car-ownership as a lifestyle may be receding culturally, the build up of sprawl in many areas has made the choice to go car-free more daunting. Probably the result of this will be a grumpy culture of young people who grudgingly get pressured into driving. [/COLOR]
This may be the case, especially when younger people decide to have families and seek more space. However, seems like a large chunk of this young population has decided not to have children, to live close to city centers and put more stock in their electronic gadgets than in fast mobility thru automobiles.

I agree it isn't growing that fast, but I am personally seeing more and more people use bicycles to get around... at least when the weather is good. On top of that, there's enough of a core of all-weather cyclists nowadays that people can at least imagine doing it all year around.

A while back I was riding a local trail when a passing cyclist said, " Hey... aren't you that guy? Aren't you the guy who rides all winter in West Des Moines? That's so cool." I guess everyone has their 15 minutes of fame.

Last edited by gerv; 07-10-13 at 08:08 PM.
gerv is offline  
Old 07-10-13, 08:12 PM
  #25  
jon c. 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,812
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,015 Times in 570 Posts
Meanwhile, the University keeps building more parking garages, but there are never enough spaces to meet the demand.
jon c. is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.