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Tires- Tube or tubeless?

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Tires- Tube or tubeless?

Old 05-30-23, 10:05 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Dried sealant is significantly lighter than fresh sealant.

You really shouldn't have any more than 60 grams of liquid sealant in a 28mm road tire. If you ride 5000 miles a year you'll likely only top off sealant twice before you get a new rear tire. Let's say 50 grams dried sealant and 60 grams liquid sealant in the tire after one year. Add the valve stem 7 grams. 117 grams tubeless, I run 80 gram tubes in my road tires, so 37 gram weight penalty at the end of one year in order to not have to change a tube for 90% of punctures. Pretty good trade off there.

I carry a spare tube whether riding tubeless or tubed. It's a wash on that account. On long solo centuries on a tubed bike, I'd carry a patch kit, two spare tubes and a spare tire.

An air compressor is handy for other things besides installing tubeless, might as well get one.

...
Add to all of this: The claims about super glue, sewing kits, and carrying extra sealant are a hoot -- I don't know anyone who does such things. And complaining about carrying a pump and a spare tube is truly hilarious -- you have to carry those when running inner tubes anyway. Oh, and the stuff about mounting tubeless tires? I've run quite a few different tires on different rims, and (for me) tubeless has not been, on average, any easier or harder to mount than non-tubeless.

As you note, the dried sealant that I find inside my old tires is practically weightless -- as would be obvious to anyone with a moment's thought, since the main ingredients in sealant are liquid, and they evaporate.

rekmeyata , you should not post nonsense about things that you have not experienced and which you do not understand.
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Old 05-30-23, 10:15 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Oh, and the stuff about mounting tubeless tires? I've run quite a few different tires on different rims, and (for me) tubeless has not been, on average, any easier or harder to mount than non-tubeless.
This is the only part of your post I disagree with. From my experiences with road, gravel, and MTB tubeless, the tires have definitely been harder to mount than I ever experienced with my bikes from 20-ish years ago. That said, Iíve accepted it as part of a system that I think is superior to tubed tires. Maybe our experiences have been different.
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Old 05-31-23, 06:43 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Eric F
This is the only part of your post I disagree with. From my experiences with road, gravel, and MTB tubeless, the tires have definitely been harder to mount than I ever experienced with my bikes from 20-ish years ago. That said, I’ve accepted it as part of a system that I think is superior to tubed tires. Maybe our experiences have been different.
This doesn’t surprise me… After all, the difficulty of mounting any tire is in the way it interacts with any particular rim. Given the almost infinite possible combinations, we’ll all have different experiences!

Of the three or four different tubeless rim types I’ve used, and many different tires, I’ve only had one single tire that I could not mount by hand — even though I had mounted the other identical tire that I’d purchased at the same time.

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Old 05-31-23, 09:22 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
This doesnít surprise meÖ After all, the difficulty of mounting any tire is in the way it interacts with any particular rim. Given the almost infinite possible combinations, weíll all have different experiences!

Of the three or four different tubeless rim types Iíve used, and many different tires, Iíve only had one single tire that I could not mount by hand ó even though I had mounted the other identical tire that Iíd been purchased at the same time.
When you say "by hand" do you mean without levers? I think the only tubeless tire that I've been able to mount without using levers was a GP5000 I was re-mounting.
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Old 05-31-23, 10:56 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Eric F
When you say "by hand" do you mean without levers? I think the only tubeless tire that I've been able to mount without using levers was a GP5000 I was re-mounting.
Yep. Canít remember if it was this thread or a different one where we got into this, but I donít use levers to mount tires.
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Old 05-31-23, 10:57 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
As you note, the dried sealant that I find inside my old tires is practically weightless -- as would be obvious to anyone with a moment's thought, since the main ingredients in sealant are liquid, and they evaporate.
Maybe not weightless, but most of the sealant is water and does evaporate. I at some point in the past did weight a tire before and after scraping off the build up of what was pretty much the life of the tire. I don't recall the exact weight, but as you suggest it was surprisngly little.
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Old 05-31-23, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR
I now carry only a plug kit and a couple of CO2 cartridges. I also have had a puncture on a solo ride this year and I didn't know it had happened until I went to top up the tires the next morning and they were down 20 psi. That and the sealant on the frame were the only clues.
I'd be careful with the co2. I had one tire where all the solids precipitated out and the sealant liquid remaining was a clear amber liquid. The only thing different about that tire and the other one on the bike that was fine was that it had been filled with co2. So I checked and the sealant company (Stans) advised against using co2. At minimum, I'd suggest if you use co2 maybe empty and refill with air at the end of the ride.
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Old 05-31-23, 11:06 AM
  #33  
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Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've ridden more than 6 years on tubed tires with zero flats. Tubeless just isn't worth the hassle to me.
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Old 05-31-23, 11:31 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Eric F
When you say "by hand" do you mean without levers? I think the only tubeless tire that I've been able to mount without using levers was a GP5000 I was re-mounting.
Originally Posted by Koyote
Yep. Canít remember if it was this thread or a different one where we got into this, but I donít use levers to mount tires.
Well, there's a plus for tubeless. Don't have to worry about pinching a tube if you need to use a lever.
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Old 05-31-23, 11:37 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've ridden more than 6 years on tubed tires with zero flats. Tubeless just isn't worth the hassle to me.
If I had that kind of experience, I'd still run tubes, too. But different people have different use-cases -- some ride more, some ride in rougher terrain (gravel, MTB), some ride gravel roads and trails covered in sharp-edged rocks, etc.

It's great if people don't feel a need to run tubeless...It's not great when they feel compelled to post a bunch of misinformation about it. It almost seems like they're too insecure to simply let others make their own choices.
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Old 05-31-23, 01:00 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Yep. Canít remember if it was this thread or a different one where we got into this, but I donít use levers to mount tires.
You have much stronger hands that I, apparently.
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Old 05-31-23, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
You have much stronger hands that I, apparently.
I don't think my hands are that strong, but I was fortunate to have a talented mechanic as an early riding buddy, and he taught me some tips and tricks for mounting tight tires. I won't repeat them here, unless asked, because that comes across as condescending to experienced riders who've mounted lots of tires. (Though I will say that, fairly regularly, I find out that I've been mistaken about something, or doing something incorrectly, for my many years on the planet.)

I also think that people have different tolerances for such things. I'm willing to spend a few minutes trying to wrestle a tire onto a rim, but not much more than that -- and then I return the tire. So that might help explain why I don't need tire levers to mount them. I know that most tires will stretch out after being on a rim for a while...But if it's THAT hard to mount initially, it's probably still going to take a little time out on the trail when I have to stick in a tube -- and I don't need that kind of time-waster in the middle of a gravel race, for instance.
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Old 05-31-23, 09:00 PM
  #38  
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we went tubeless on our tandem. any tire that what puncture resistant enough in a 1.5" size was so harsh and pretty slow. going tubeless give us a much smoother ride and no punctures that stopped us. but the tires and my 2" tire on my trek I can put them on by hand and they are easy off too. I lucked out there.
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Old 05-31-23, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I don't think my hands are that strong, but I was fortunate to have a talented mechanic as an early riding buddy, and he taught me some tips and tricks for mounting tight tires. I won't repeat them here, unless asked, because that comes across as condescending to experienced riders who've mounted lots of tires. (Though I will say that, fairly regularly, I find out that I've been mistaken about something, or doing something incorrectly, for my many years on the planet.)

I also think that people have different tolerances for such things. I'm willing to spend a few minutes trying to wrestle a tire onto a rim, but not much more than that -- and then I return the tire. So that might help explain why I don't need tire levers to mount them. I know that most tires will stretch out after being on a rim for a while...But if it's THAT hard to mount initially, it's probably still going to take a little time out on the trail when I have to stick in a tube -- and I don't need that kind of time-waster in the middle of a gravel race, for instance.
I have the same experience. Was not a early adopter of tubeless and all the tire rim combinations I have experienced have been nothing difficult to mount. For sure not as challenging as a Continental Gaterskin. To each their own so have no real skin in the game however most of the naysayers are repeating old tropes from first generation tubeless. As for those who ride supple performance tires and donít get flats for years of course it would be silly to switch. Buy the lightest fastest tires possible with latex tubes and enjoy unfortunately that does not apply to the riding I do.
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Old 06-01-23, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I don't think my hands are that strong, but I was fortunate to have a talented mechanic as an early riding buddy, and he taught me some tips and tricks for mounting tight tires. I won't repeat them here, unless asked, because that comes across as condescending to experienced riders who've mounted lots of tires. (Though I will say that, fairly regularly, I find out that I've been mistaken about something, or doing something incorrectly, for my many years on the planet.)

I also think that people have different tolerances for such things. I'm willing to spend a few minutes trying to wrestle a tire onto a rim, but not much more than that -- and then I return the tire. So that might help explain why I don't need tire levers to mount them. I know that most tires will stretch out after being on a rim for a while...But if it's THAT hard to mount initially, it's probably still going to take a little time out on the trail when I have to stick in a tube -- and I don't need that kind of time-waster in the middle of a gravel race, for instance.
I could very well be that there is a technique that I'm not aware of for mounting tires without levers. For me, if things get challenging, I just grab levers and get the job done.
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Old 06-01-23, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
I could very well be that there is a technique that I'm not aware of for mounting tires without levers. For me, if things get challenging, I just grab levers and get the job done.
You know, at the core of this statement re: tire levers vs magic, lies the foundation ethos of my thinking about the entire tubeless vs tubed paradigm. Tubeless culture has developed a following of devotees that make the technology work through all manner of art, craft, and when all that fails, force of will, and seize on every triumph as more justification to put the hair shirt on another day and ride. Tell the truth, have you ever seen the sheer amount of ... drama that surrounds the adoption of a tubeless lifestyle duplicated in the tubed tire world?
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Old 06-01-23, 12:37 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
You know, at the core of this statement re: tire levers vs magic, lies the foundation ethos of my thinking about the entire tubeless vs tubed paradigm. Tubeless culture has developed a following of devotees that make the technology work through all manner of art, craft, and when all that fails, force of will, and seize on every triumph as more justification to put the hair shirt on another day and ride. Tell the truth, have you ever seen the sheer amount of ... drama that surrounds the adoption of a tubeless lifestyle duplicated in the tubed tire world?
Most of the drama results from rebutting false and ignorant claims from people like you who have no experience with tubeless.

I mean, what's more dramatic than claiming that using a particular type of bike tire is a "lifestyle"? Swinging is a lifestyle...RV'ing is lifestyle...Using tubeless tires is not a lifestyle.

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Old 06-01-23, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
You know, at the core of this statement re: tire levers vs magic, lies the foundation ethos of my thinking about the entire tubeless vs tubed paradigm. Tubeless culture has developed a following of devotees that make the technology work through all manner of art, craft, and when all that fails, force of will, and seize on every triumph as more justification to put the hair shirt on another day and ride. Tell the truth, have you ever seen the sheer amount of ... drama that surrounds the adoption of a tubeless lifestyle duplicated in the tubed tire world?
I will tell you my secrets to making tubeless easy if you tell me the secret behind how you get seven years between flats!
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Old 06-01-23, 12:53 PM
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Tubeless tires are going to be heavier and when there is a blowout the only fix out on the road is to have a tube handy and to pull the tire off the wheel and put on the tube and inflate the tire. Primary advantages are on mountain bikes and being able to use lower tire pressures for better traction and handling.

I put sealant in the tires of my e-bike that had 4" tires and required two different wrenches to remove the tire for fixing a flat. I sold the bike and now have an e-bike that has the usual skewers to remove the wheels and 28mm tires with tubes.
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Old 06-01-23, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Calsun
Tubeless tires are going to be heavier.
Not necessarily true.

​​​​​​
Originally Posted by Calsun
Tubeless tires are going to be heavier and when there is a blowout the only fix out on the road is to have a tube handy and to pull the tire off the wheel and put on the tube and inflate the tire.
Definitely not true.
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Old 06-01-23, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Calsun
Tubeless tires are going to be heavier and when there is a blowout the only fix out on the road is to have a tube handy and to pull the tire off the wheel and put on the tube and inflate the tire.
Isn't the fix for a tubed tire blowout exactly the same as what you described? One of the major advantages of tubeless tires is the automatic sealing of small punctures that would mean a tube change for a tubed tire. A hole large enough for a tubeless tire to require a tube (and probably a boot), will be equally damaging to a tubed tire.
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Old 06-01-23, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
You know, at the core of this statement re: tire levers vs magic, lies the foundation ethos of my thinking about the entire tubeless vs tubed paradigm. Tubeless culture has developed a following of devotees that make the technology work through all manner of art, craft, and when all that fails, force of will, and seize on every triumph as more justification to put the hair shirt on another day and ride. Tell the truth, have you ever seen the sheer amount of ... drama that surrounds the adoption of a tubeless lifestyle duplicated in the tubed tire world?
From what I've seen, most of the drama is from anti-tubeless folks ranting about something that they have zero experience with, but claim to know everything about. Do you make the same rants about tubeless car or motorcycle tires?

I've been riding bikes for more than a few years, under lots of different conditions. I understand the options available to me, and the pros and cons of each tire type. Tubeless is my informed choice.
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Old 06-01-23, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric F
Isn't the fix for a tubed tire blowout exactly the same as what you described? One of the major advantages of tubeless tires is the automatic sealing of small punctures that would mean a tube change for a tubed tire. A hole large enough for a tubeless tire to require a tube (and probably a boot), will be equally damaging to a tubed tire.
And with the tubeless tire, you may be able to just shove in a plug, add a little air, and be on your way. I can put in a Dynaplug in about ten seconds. That sure beats changing out a tube -- which, as you note, you might still have to do anyway, JUST LIKE if you were running tubes in the first place.
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Old 06-01-23, 01:54 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Tell the truth, have you ever seen the sheer amount of ... drama that surrounds the adoption of a tubeless lifestyle duplicated in the tubed tire world?
I'm not old enough to have witnessed it first hand, but I'm sure there were similar discussions back in the early days of clinchers.
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Old 06-01-23, 01:58 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
And with the tubeless tire, you may be able to just shove in a plug, add a little air, and be on your way. I can put in a Dynaplug in about ten seconds. That sure beats changing out a tube -- which, as you note, you might still have to do anyway, JUST LIKE if you were running tubes in the first place.
Have you used Dynaplugs on road tires? I carry them in my gravel and MTB tool kits, but not on the road.
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