fishboat

OP..if you have little experience riding various bikes then you can wax-philosophic on an infinite number of topics and likely end up with little progress toward where you'll actually end up, given some experience.

There's two types of people when they do research, or become tank commanders. 1) Aim, aim, aim, aim, aim. aim. aim, aim, aim, aim aim...fire!

or..

2) FIRE!, aim, Fire, aim, fire..

The second type gets where they're going much faster. There's no substitute for first-person experience.

Pick a bike(crusier, or hybrid, or drop bar road bike..bike shops rent them..start with an upright bike) and a 200 mile route. Make it easy..do a credit card tour...pack light.. take a few personal items and some clothes..and a credit card. Ride the route in 3, or 4, or 5(, or 6) days. If something didn't work or feel good/acceptable, then try something else or a different bike. Or skip the tour and just do successive, daily, day rides locally to cover the same distances in the same amount of time.

Two items pop up quickly with new riders:

1) With any type bike after a 20+ mile ride... "My butt hurts!" With time and/or the right saddle this goes away. Many people never get beyond this. This isn't a bad thing as this is where "like new" used bikes come from and the rest of us love to find these bikes.

2) With road (drop bar) bikes after a 20+ mile ride... "My neck hurts!" This comes from never riding a road bike and the rider being completely out of shape for this type of riding. With riding time and a proper front-end setup (stem length, degree rise..etc.) this goes away..or not and drop bars are not for you.

In both cases the "...with time goes away.." it takes more interest by the rider than a couple rides. People that are sincerely looking to get into and enjoy cycling get beyond both of these issues. Those with a "latest shiny object" approach to cycling provide used bikes for the rest of us.

You seem to favor an upright riding position. OK..go for it. It's the only way you'll find out if that position works for you. You're asking folks that have been through the bike/rider position "experiments" many years to many decades ago. Presumably they've settled into what works for them, based on first-person experience.

I can appreciate a good amount of analysis, but eventually one needs to bust a move. As a former(now retired) chemist(scientist/researcher) and data analyst...getting lost in analysis paralysis often, for some folks, generates many reasons not to even get started. Though the exercise in itself can be fun.

greatbasin

I'm sure you're correct, but talk is cheap and touring bikes and all the accommodations fit to them are costly. It does make sense for me to ask questions and I profit when I take the answers into serious consideration. Especially when I feel inclined to do something that seems contrary to convention and the collective experience of many others, I think I should be asking questions before I invest a lot in proving them wrong so to speak.

I'm not paralyzed by analysis. I've made three serious offers on bikes in the last two weeks and bought one of them. I would have been touring last weekend had things worked out, but getting the bike ready was a long shot. Now work precludes me from a multiday trip until after this coming weekend.

I would love a trike. I noticed a beautiful ICE Sprint RS for sale. I'd have to pay substantially over $2K for something like that, plus the luggage. I have some concerns about safety alongside traffic and about the weight going over mountain passes with 15% grades. A trike involves even more unknowns for me than a touring bike. I have a lot of questions that I think only riding one would answer, and since the entry-level price is around the same as a very well-equipped touring bike, I've put it off for now.

craig_dahlke

I personally think this is a great conversation for this forum, thanks for starting the thread. Lately, I've also been thinking about body positioning while riding my bicycles. I have two bicycles that I use for multi-day touring- one is an old road touring rig, the other is an old mountain bike that I've set up for touring routes with significant off-road stretches. While touring on either bicycle, my cockpit setup has been similar- drop bars with the tops level with the saddle height and a reasonable stem length. But recently I've also started to play around with upright body positioning and swept back handlebars on my around-town commuter bike, and it's been a revelation. So I've been asking myself the same question- would I want to replicate this upright body position while on longer tours?

One part of me thinks not. I think that the slightly bent forward position with a drop bar is the best solution for me, as it allows me to balance/switch my weight between my hands, legs, and butt throughout a full day of riding while allowing for multiple hand/body positions, including one that allows me to hide from hellish headwinds. For me, swept-back bars and upright body positions are really great for short and medium rides, and I could definitely enjoy riding like that for overnighters or shorter touring days, but I think it'd really get to me after multiple long days in the saddle. Maybe if I had a good upright handlebar with multiple hand/body positions like a VO crazy bar, but probably not if I was riding a Rivendell-esque cockpit that realistically only has one or two solid hand/body positions.

The other part of me thinks sure, why not? Human bodies can be extremely adaptable and capable, and you just need to have the right attitude, realistic goals, and an appropriate pace.

greatbasin

Thanks. I was contemplating something similar. I got a 30 deg. Redshift stem and was thinking of VO Left Bank bars that are very similar to the 867's. Since I already have drop bars, I might try them first and see if I get used to them.

That's my strategy. Got a drop-bar road bike, raised the bars, and put luggage on it. Aiming to tour next week maybe, probably more like 150 miles but I won't be counting.

Neck and shoulder pain would be a concern if it persisted. I think I've learned that the advantages in power with an inclined riding position, being able to use the hamstrings and the glutes and not just the quads makes it worth trying for some time. What I'm not so sure goes away with time is the affect on one's view. When you're upright and look around, your head stays level with the horizon. When you're leaned forward, as you pivot to look to the sides, your head is tilted substantially from level. You can pick your head up and look around every once in a while. That's what I dislike about auto and motorcycle touring -- you're going so fast that you can only look around every once in a while.

elcruxio

My utility bike has a relatively upright position with short reach and it is exceedingly comfortable and can easily be ridden in normal clothes.

For short trips.

I sometimes wonder whether such a comfortable bike would work for touring and then comes the day when I have to ride more than 15km with it and I decide no, there's absolutely no way of making that thing work for me on longer trips or touring.

A few reasons why:

1) upright position puts most of your weight on your saddle, which then requires an exceedingly good fitting saddle to avoid any issues. Some people have that dialed in, but I suspect most haven't to a degree an upright riding position would require.

2) as leaning forward more to an extent helps holding up your torso, leaning forward also allows access to better muscle recruitment. That can mean many things for different people and I can already hear the "I'm not in a hurry" -crowd stirring, but it's not really about speed. It's about fatigue avoidance and efficiency. Climbing a hill is harder with insufficient muscle recruitment. You'll also be slower but also more tired. So there's that too.

I used to have a dutch style bike where you sat bolt upright and it would have perhaps worked for touring in the netherlands if daily distances were under 10km with breaks and with a good tailwind. Climbing anything with that bike was a complete non starter as you could not utilize any of the muscles in the back of the leg.

this may come out a bit strong but leaning forward is how optimally cycling is done. A moderate lean forward (around 45 degrees back angle) is the most comfortable position for long distance riding just like a heavy forward lean is the most comfortable position for long distance xc skiing or a good straight posture is best for long distance running.

But it still is what it is. Cycling isn't like lying in bed so you're going to develop aches and soreness like in any sport. The deciding factor is whether they are below the toleration limit or not. If not, they are an issue meaning something is wrong with either bike fit or rider and needs to be addressed.

Tourist in MSN

I have not ridden a trike, but I know a guy that bought one a bit over two years ago. I also was part of a group tour, one of the people in the group had a trike with a one-wheel trailer for gear.

Safety, being that low you are harder to see. But almost every trike I have seen has a flag pole and flag, the flag fluttering aids visibility greatly, as to blinkers if you have them one. The guy I know that bought one two years ago, his flag has a stiffener, likely added by the marketing department to hold the flag horizontally with the company name, and it does not flutter in the wind making it less safe. But he added some streamers of flagging tape to make up for that.

The group tour I was in, the guy with the trike pedaled up Going to the Sun Road on his trike. I think I averaged about 3.5 mph and took frequent breaks, but he pedaled slower, when you do not need to balance and can't fall over you can pedal as slow as you want as long as your gearing is low enough.

The one in the photo, I took that photo in Iceland, the owner was from Germany, I have no clue how he got it there but it is not the sort of thing you put in a box and bring to the airport.

phughes

When you are slightly leaned forward, you take the weight off your rear, and the bumps do not jolt your spine. It also takes pressure off your lower back. If your bike is set up correctly, the seat setback is correct for you, you should be balanced on the bike, with little to no weight on your hands, which also takes weight and pressure off your arms and shoulders. IN other words, you can ride many mile in a day without pain or injury. When you sit completely upright, you will need a very large, comfortable seat. The best I found for that position was on an old beach cruiser I had. The entire underside of the seat was made up of long springs, and it also had two large springs in the back like a sprung Brooks.

As long as your bars are at the same level, or slightly above the seat level, you will be able to look around and enjoy the sights just fine.

greatbasin

I think the width of the trike concerns me as much as the visibility. It might just be a mental thing, but when I'm riding my bike, it seems like the cars and big trucks pass very close. When there's a soft shoulder, I'm riding on the edge of the lane. A trike takes up more lane than a bike with panniers.


This is one highway I ride. On the bike, I've usually got the tires just to the right of the white line in that narrow shoulder. Big rigs pass me on the left. If they've got the space, they'll edge over the double-yellow line and give me more room. If there's traffic in the other lane, we get tight. If I had a trike, I would be all the way into the lane.

There's a video on YT with the pros and cons of trikes. The guy covers safety from both perspectives. People are less likely to fall over on a trike, and they're less likely to be thrown over the handlebars. He also acknowledges the low visibility, flags and lights. Interestingly, he doesn't mention the challenge of transportation. Even if you're not flying the airlines, getting a trike in a regular car would be a challenge and bike racks don't help. Even with some folding features, it seems like you'd need a van, suv or a crossover with a fairly large cargo area and it would probably be best to have a pickup truck. Even then, transporting two or more trikes becomes a challenge. I've frequently traveled with four bikes on a bike rack or in a pickup truck bed. I don't think I could carry four trikes without a big truck or trailer. I do think about involving more of my family in touring, and that's another reason I'm avoiding trikes for now.

Back to riding position while touring: recumbent bikes offer the same reclined riding position, while still being a bike. They're still relatively expensive, and weird. Again, if I'd ever ridden one, I might consider it, but as of now there's too many questions around them to dive into touring on one. I think I'd look there if I couldn't find a position on a regular bike that worked for me.

dgodave

Lots of drop bar tourers, or even old MTB tourers, can be fairly easily converted to upright by installing Nitto Albatross bars or various copies. Its what I'd do if I wasn't touring on this upright bike:

mtnbud

Have you been riding that Bianchi you bought? Is it a comfortable fit for you? How high is your saddle compared to your handlebars? I find I prefer my handlebars to be level or slightly higher than my saddle. If your handlebars are lower than your saddle, a different stem may help.

I often ride with my hands resting on the hoods of the brake levers and find that to be a very comfortable position for long distances.

I do agree switching different handlebars for drop bars involves much more than simply switching the bars. Both the height and the distance to the seat need to be adjusted to properly fit.

BTW: I've noticed the geometry on my newish mountain bike is very different than my vintage mountain bike. I wonder if the geometry of newer touring bikes has changed much. My new mountain bike has me in a much more upright position. The 2006 road bike I usually tour with is described as a "comfort" bike. It's geometry puts me slightly more upright than my other road bike. I feel comfortable on all my bikes.

My touring bike

My "bikepacking" bike

Tourist in MSN

The guy I know that bought a trike a couple years ago, he is 85, he was losing his ability to balance a bike and crashed a couple times the summer before he bought the trike, both crashes were balance related.

He has a mini van. When we ride, I help him load it into the minivan, at home he built some form of ramp to use. At his age he has trouble riding more than 20 miles, 95 percent of his distance ridden is on bike paths.

staehpj1

Trikes, by nature do need to take a bit more of the lane. It is just the nature of the beast. Trike riders accept that and deal with it. The ones I met on tour loved their trikes and seemed to be doing fine. They look like fun and seem like a reasonable enough choice.
The thing is that for me trikes just don't scratch the right itches. For me it is about the familiar muscle memory of 1000 little things related to riding a two wheeled bike.

djb

one can read interwebness stuff and get ideas and whatnot, but it all comes down to you riding a lot and seeing what you like. Depending on how much you actually ride, its very common to change your views on what you like as a riding position as time goes by.
Get out there and you'll get your answer on your own and you'll be happy, that's all that matters.

tcs

There are some folding models that will allow you to put one trike in the back of perhaps a hatchback/station wagon (station wagon - remember those?).




Public transportation, Amtrak...flying? Bwaaahaha!

But the transportation thing does get mentioned on the trike boards from time to time, and you'd think this guy would have been able to license his design to someone or get financial backing to go into production...but no, apparently. Disappeared 6 or 7 years ago.


Best I've seen lately is the TrikExplor M320 (slowly, very slowly) folding/disassembling trike. No idea about the COVID-era availability.

tcs

runs out of ammunition...or research budget



"Measure twice; cut once."

fishboat

btdt..30 years. True, but like most things in life, "it depends.." The other side of the coin is that extended "aim" periods result in the Marketing folks (in product development environments) take one of two actions. Either they take what you have and launch a less than ideal product, based on the stereotypical assumption that research will never stop tweaking something, or they cancel the product development due to a lack of progress(or transfer the project to someone else). In my experience they prefer the second route(fire, aim..fire..prior to product commercialization). More is learned well, faster. Extended aims are often largely theoretical. It's hard to sell blue sky hand waving.

pdlamb

We passed a couple on a recumbent tadpole trike pulling a trailer outside Ennis, MT on tour. Very long and wide rig, FWIW, and we had to wait for an uphill to pass them. They had a flag on the trailer and one on the trike. They were so unusual and conspicuous that everyone on the road saw them. I wouldn't worry about being visible unless you were in eastern Kentucky (you are in a maze of twisty little roads, all different).

Thulsadoom

I suspect some would disagree with that.

pdlamb

Some people disagree with the notion that the earth is not flat.

Tourist in MSN

I am 90 percent in agreement. The 10 percent that I am not, I have some downward pressure on my hands. Not a significant amount, but much more than "little to no weight on your hands".

It gets complicated, if I am pedaling hard, I have a lot of downward pressure on the pedal spindle that is in front of the bottom bracket spindle (up to 175mm in front of the bottom bracket spindle), and much less downward pressure on the rear pedal. Thus, I am taking weigh off of my other contact points, hands and bum. But if coasting the foot pressure is centered over the bottom bracket spindle and that foot pressure is reduced compared to when pedaling hard.

That also means that hand pressure varies with how hard I am pedaling. And varies with different hand positions, hoods or drops or bar tops, different positions change how much forward lean I have. Often when coasting I sit more upright with my hands on the bar tops, but if pushing hard into the wind I am leaning forward more with hands on the drops. My point is that downward hand pressure varies a lot depending on what I am doing with my feet and how far forward I am leaning.

I am not trying to be argumentative, I said I was 90 percent in agreement. Only the hand pressure is where we are not in agreement.

That said, if I am the anomaly here, not concerned about that as I have it setup where it works well for me for long days.

The photo that I posted that someone put a yellow line through my head, I think I was coasting during the photo, as my hands were on the bar tops, not the hoods or drops.

phughes

Yeah, possibly poor working on my part. Someone once said your hands on the bars should be like you are leaning over with your hands on a table. Yeah, there will be some weight on your hands, but not a lot.

robow

Something that needs mentioning if you are going to tour with a trike. I have two friends that have gone to this mode because of health issues and they have to be very knowledgeable where they will be riding. As more and more of the states are adding rumble strips to their state highways and even county roads, it's almost impossible for my friends to avoid those rumble strips without actually riding well inside the lane as they have 3 distinct wheel paths to be concerned with (not to mention my friend below that uses a trailer and has 5 distinct wheel paths

holytrousers

Great conversation, greatbasin
First of all, don't buy an expensive bike for the moment. I suggest you buy a road bike, a used and cheap one, small size, and ride it for a couple of weeks. Try out different positions and setups. I'm sure you'll love it, and then you will know what bike you want for your touring plans.
Here is an excellent thread talking about riding position, and how counter-intuitive it is to most of us Riding Position Discovery.

M Rose

I will second this.
I bought a brand new Hybrid last summer and while it’s great around town, after I get to the 15 mile mark… I’m done. I thought it was my level of fitness for a while, but realized I had a lot left in me and the bike just wasn’t fitting me well for long distances.

I went back to the LBS and got laughed at and then handed severs different road bikes to ride. Right away I was able to push 20 and 40 miles before fatigue and saddle sore came into play. I fell in love with one of those bikes (Trek Domane AL2 Disk) but I was told to wait a few months because they had a “special bike” on order that would fit my bill better.

I rode the Domane back to back with the “Special Bike” for several weeks… and they were right, and the end of the test, the Special bike won out…

now back to the hybrid…. It sits locked up and not ridden. As for the special bike… it’s not really that special, just a Grando 520.

indyfabz

Good PSA. When researching the Glacier-Waterton loop I found a CGOB journal written by someone who was riding a regular bike towing a toddler in a Burly trailer. She was forced to ride with part of the trailer in the travel lane because of the width of the shoulder and the rumble strip placement. That was on PR 3 between Elko and Fernie. When I eventually rode that segment I understood the problem.