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"All cyclists will need to fit detection beacons, says cycle industry boss"

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"All cyclists will need to fit detection beacons, says cycle industry boss"

Old 03-26-18, 06:17 PM
  #26  
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I don't see it as any different than running taillights day and night. A "detection beacon" could actually be fully passive, like a corner reflector, but I'd be down with putting on a beacon too. All it would be would be a modulated LED. Could be part of a normal taillight, which are already modulated (that's how they dim).
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Old 03-26-18, 06:23 PM
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It sounds like they are talking about a concept that is already being deployed in aviation: ADS-B

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automa...0%93_broadcast
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Old 03-26-18, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoopdriver View Post
In any case, what is it that is so onerous to those here who are so opposed? Don't want to be recognised as a cyclist? Well then, throw all your lights away, strip your reflectors, and wear dark clothing at night.
I don't want an extra device to keep charged and worry about. If it's passive, cheap, and lightweight (like a reflector), then I'd get one for extra safety. But the onus shouldn't be on me to buy stuff to address shortcomings in AV technology.

AV's should be able to sense people on or off bikes.
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Old 03-27-18, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
I don't want an extra device to keep charged and worry about.
There's no reason at all that a normal taillight can't modulate a digital signal for this purpose. Taillights already are modulated, that's how they are dimmed. putting a pattern into the modulation should cost exactly nothing and cause the batteries to die exactly no faster.
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Old 03-27-18, 06:09 AM
  #30  
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I wouldn't favor making such devices mandatory, but if I live long enough for such a beacon to be practical I'd use one.
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Old 03-27-18, 06:16 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
I don't want an extra device to keep charged and worry about. If it's passive, cheap, and lightweight (like a reflector), then I'd get one for extra safety. But the onus shouldn't be on me to buy stuff to address shortcomings in AV technology.

AV's should be able to sense people on or off bikes.
I do agree, the person on bike should not have to take any onus for this tech - Car companies and companies that want to have driver-less cars need to fund these devices if that's gonna be a thing.*

Like I posted earlier, I believe the on bike devise should be simple like the Dero ZAP - it's a simple sensor on your spokes, no need to charge them.

Here's a promo video showing the tech:

*edit/afterthought/footnote - It's not a big deal for somebody like me (a tech-geek with disposable income) to get one more device, but think about the large number of people that bike for economic reasons, who's going to pay for the sensors to be added to their bikes? Are those people simply disposable in our brave new world?

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Old 03-27-18, 06:18 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Don't be too sure of that, Uber may have disconnected the OEM safety tech in order to test their own prototype tech which may be the reason the Uber version Volvo failed so miserably.
You got me to look deeper on the subject - thanks

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/03/26/...al-uber-crash/

Interesting quote in the blame-storm:

.... clarifying a lidar array's role in the driving task; namely, that even when the lasers detect an object, "it is up to the rest of the system to interpret and use the data to make decisions. We do not know how the Uber system of decision-making works." If Uber's software doesn't process the data properly, then it doesn't matter what the lasers register.

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Old 03-27-18, 07:55 AM
  #33  
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What else do we put these devices on? Kid's bikes? Mobility scooters? Push chairs? Skips? Traffic cones? Cat/dog collars? Sheep...?

Is it not right that any moving vehicle should be able to prevent hitting a universal object in it's path..? That's what cars have drivers for - if you are going to remove the driver, the car will have to be able to execute that same function regardless of what that universal object is.
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Old 03-27-18, 09:14 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ItsJustMe View Post
There's no reason at all that a normal taillight can't modulate a digital signal for this purpose. Taillights already are modulated, that's how they are dimmed. putting a pattern into the modulation should cost exactly nothing and cause the batteries to die exactly no faster.
If it's part of the taillight, would it do anything to prevent the Arizona Uber accident, where the car hit the bike broadside?

And if the signal is via normal taillight wavelength light, why does it need to be modulated? Shouldn't the car simply avoid hitting any light source?
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Old 03-27-18, 09:15 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
I do agree, the person on bike should not have to take any onus for this tech - Car companies and companies that want to have driver-less cars need to fund these devices if that's gonna be a thing.*

Like I posted earlier, I believe the on bike devise should be simple like the Dero ZAP - it's a simple sensor on your spokes, no need to charge them.

Here's a promo video showing the tech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=XcqBJf7pH2c

*edit/afterthought/footnote - It's not a big deal for somebody like me (a tech-geek with disposable income) to get one more device, but think about the large number of people that bike for economic reasons, who's going to pay for the sensors to be added to their bikes? Are those people simply disposable in our brave new world?
The drawback is that RFID can only respond to a query with an announcement that it is present, (with its hardcoded ID), but cannot tell where it is. As opposed to ADS-B Out which can provide its exact GPS coordinates. Of course ADS-B would require a power source in order to constantly process its GPS location. I'm not sure telling the AV's onboard computer that "there is a cyclist somewhere" would be of any help.
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Old 03-27-18, 09:19 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
My reaction can be summarized as "B.S."

Long version, including the reactions of many others -- this is just another variation of the invented "jaywalking" laws that shifted the burden from driver responsibility and liability to regarding pedestrians and cyclists as disposable, expendable and collateral damage in the greater interest of ensuring motorists and motor vehicles aren't inconvenienced.
That is just more marching to the nanny state. It is like mandatory helmet laws. It is b'crat nonsense of those that want to control every aspect of other people's lives.
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Old 03-27-18, 09:20 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
You got me to look deeper on the subject - thanks

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/03/26/...al-uber-crash/

Interesting quote in the blame-storm:
On another forum, I asked the question: How does the color of a pedestrians clothing affect LIDAR detection range?

A poster who says he has experience with the systems, answered:
Since LIDAR is infrared, which is adjacent to the visible spectrum, reflectivity is similar to visible light, so black clothing will cause the detection range to drop to 10-30% of white clothing.
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Old 03-27-18, 09:26 AM
  #38  
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In the future, if automated cars become ubiquitous, then I would consider a beacon if the car manufacturers made them absolutely free to cyclists. I definitely should not have to pay to make their vehicles safer on the road. I currently do everything I can to make myself safer on the road from human drivers (hi vis stuff, lights, helmet, etc.). Yes, I pay for that myself. But that stuff makes me more visible to other cyclists and pedestrians as well. This beacon will serve one purpose only so the car manufacturers can pay for it. I'll just have to remember to remove it before I ride my bike out to rob a bank so they can't track me during the getaway, lol.
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Old 03-27-18, 10:12 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
I'll just have to remember to remove it before I ride my bike out to rob a bank so they can't track me during the getaway, lol.
Dude, join the pro team and rob banks on stolen bikes.
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Old 03-27-18, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
The drawback is that RFID can only respond to a query with an announcement that it is present, (with its hardcoded ID), but cannot tell where it is. As opposed to ADS-B Out which can provide its exact GPS coordinates. Of course ADS-B would require a power source in order to constantly process its GPS location. I'm not sure telling the AV's onboard computer that "there is a cyclist somewhere" would be of any help.
I work with industrial manufacturing and there are companies working with RFID to get the same information (location, speed, direction). This would be a more controlled environment than our roadways, but this info is available with RFID
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Old 03-27-18, 10:39 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
I work with industrial manufacturing and there are companies working with RFID to get the same information (location, speed, direction). This would be a more controlled environment than our roadways, but this info is available with RFID
I'd love to see an explanation of how a passive device could provide that.
I can believe that the RFID scanner could add it's own location/speed/etc to a scan.
But I can't imagine how a passive device could originate it.

ETA Some googling turns up Active RFID which is powered RFID device, but were are back to something that requires a battery or an electrical system on the object being tracked.

Last edited by Shimagnolo; 03-27-18 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 03-27-18, 10:45 AM
  #42  
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I still want another 1972 Plymouth Duster, no matter how bad the Slant Six sucks gas vs. a Prius.


Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Ummmm ..... Actually, the beacon is to identify cyclists to AV cars. Communication is with the car, not the driver.

As a rule, it doesn't hurt to read the cited article to actually know what one is talking about Before starting to talk.

I quote:

It is the goal of the “connected car” industry to make cyclists use sensors or beacons so they can be detected more easily. (Such sensors could be passive transponders or, even easier, signals from a smartphone.) Currently, "erratic" cyclists are hard to detect by autonomous vehicles. And pedestrians, too, are often not spotted by a plethora of detection devices on even the most tricked-out "driverless cars". (emphasis added, to make the point clear to the reading-averse.)
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Old 03-27-18, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
I'd love to see an explanation of how a passive device could provide that.
I can believe that the RFID scanner could add it's own location/speed/etc to a scan.
But I can't imagine how a passive device could originate it.

ETA Some googling turns up Active RFID which is powered RFID device, but were are back to something that requires a battery or an electrical system on the object being tracked.
I saw a demo at a show last fall (Pack Expo in Vegas), I believe the demo was with Turck (or maybe HARTING). I need to do more digging into the the application/demo. I don't have enough time right now to go any deeper, but my recollection was that these were none powered tags, it might have been two tags on each carrier and software computed the distance info. The demo was on a belt, making it less applicable to an open road application.
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Old 03-27-18, 10:54 AM
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It'll just freak out the shoplifting alarms at Walmart, no doubt.
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Old 03-27-18, 10:55 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Like I posted earlier, I believe the on bike devise should be simple like the Dero ZAP - it's a simple sensor on your spokes, no need to charge them.

Here's a promo video showing the tech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=XcqBJf7pH2c
How is this system any better than using, say, Strava? I'm pretty sure there are absolutely no ZAP stations where I normally ride.
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Old 03-27-18, 10:56 AM
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Do you think A Clockwork Orange isn't far behind this?
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Old 03-27-18, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
How is this system any better than using, say, Strava? I'm pretty sure there are absolutely no ZAP stations where I normally ride.
It's helpful for people that are not using smartphone or specific apps.

Dero is based in Minneapolis, and partnered with the U of MN to develop the system. I don't honestly see this becoming a huge success with wide adoption, but it's here in Minneapolis and successful.
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Old 03-27-18, 11:24 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Don't be too sure of that, Uber may have disconnected the OEM safety tech in order to test their own prototype tech which may be the reason the Uber version Volvo failed so miserably.
This just showed up on my face book feed: Uber Disabled Volvo SUV's Safety System Before Fatality https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...efore-fatality
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Old 03-27-18, 11:29 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
How is this system any better than using, say, Strava? I'm pretty sure there are absolutely no ZAP stations where I normally ride.
You could add the RFID sensors (the "station") to the automated vehicles.
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Old 03-27-18, 11:31 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
This just showed up on my face book feed: Uber Disabled Volvo SUV's Safety System Before Fatality https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...efore-fatality
Wow. On the one hand, this is Aptiv's CYA claim, on the other hand I believe it. Uber is in big trouble.
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