Is Cross Chaining Still So Bad?
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 7,644
Bikes: 61 Bianchi Specialissima 71 Peugeot G50 7? P'geot PX10 74 Raleigh GranSport 75 P'geot UO8 78? Raleigh Team Pro 82 P'geot PSV 86 P'geot PX 91 Bridgestone MB0 92 B'stone XO1 97 Rans VRex 92 Cannondale R1000 94 B'stone MB5 97 Vitus 997
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 48 Times
in
30 Posts
Is Cross Chaining Still So Bad?
I have always read that cross chaining is bad and inefficient and very disrecommended.
However, I notice that racers cross chain all the time. For example, today's stage 5 of Tirreno-Adriatico, when the climb eased (I'd guess to around 5%, other places was up to 10%) many or most of the riders were in big chainring, big sprocket - so, completely cross chained.
Many of them are riding 10 and 11 speed electronic shifting, so inconvenience of shifting doesn't explain it. I understand some prefer a slower cadence but they could get it using small ring and a smaller cog with a straighter chainline.
Is, perhaps, the case against cross chaining getting weaker as chains get more flexible? Or do the increased efficiency of using larger tooth count rings and cogs outweigh the decreased efficiency of chain angle? Or are pro road racers unwittingly giving up a precious 2-3% of their power output?
https://www.steephill.tv/players/yout...1ldORg&yr=2015
However, I notice that racers cross chain all the time. For example, today's stage 5 of Tirreno-Adriatico, when the climb eased (I'd guess to around 5%, other places was up to 10%) many or most of the riders were in big chainring, big sprocket - so, completely cross chained.
Many of them are riding 10 and 11 speed electronic shifting, so inconvenience of shifting doesn't explain it. I understand some prefer a slower cadence but they could get it using small ring and a smaller cog with a straighter chainline.
Is, perhaps, the case against cross chaining getting weaker as chains get more flexible? Or do the increased efficiency of using larger tooth count rings and cogs outweigh the decreased efficiency of chain angle? Or are pro road racers unwittingly giving up a precious 2-3% of their power output?
https://www.steephill.tv/players/yout...1ldORg&yr=2015
Last edited by jyl; 03-15-15 at 08:47 PM.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Further North than U
Posts: 2,000
Bikes: Spec Roubaix, three Fisher Montare, two Pugs
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Pros could care less if they wear out their chains, chainrings or cogs early. It's of no concern to them. If you don't worry about that kind of thing, go ahead and cross chain all you want, but since you're probably not in quite the hurry that a racer might be, the big/big combo certainly overlaps the big/small option so for those that aren't in a hurry or want to make their drivetrain last, there isn't much reason TO cross chain. Admittedly if you are climbing and need an easier gear, there's more chance of dropping a chain and having a less-than-good shift if you go down to the small chainring in front and then go up two or three in the back that there would be if you simply go up to the big cog in the rear. So there are good reasons TO cross chain but it certainly will wear out your drivetrain a bit more quickly depending on how often you do it and with a reasonable amount of forethought a typical rider has little or no reason to cross chain.
It doesn't, by the way, have anything to do with efficiency as far as I know. That fact that your chain is at a bit of an angle doesn't make the drivetrain significantly less efficient. Correct me if I'm wrong there. It's just a matter of gears being duplicated (or nearly so) and the fact that cross chaining causes unnecessary wear on the metal (as well as side flexing of the chain but that's not a huge issue).
It doesn't, by the way, have anything to do with efficiency as far as I know. That fact that your chain is at a bit of an angle doesn't make the drivetrain significantly less efficient. Correct me if I'm wrong there. It's just a matter of gears being duplicated (or nearly so) and the fact that cross chaining causes unnecessary wear on the metal (as well as side flexing of the chain but that's not a huge issue).
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 2,465
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
The pro's don't have to worry about component life.
And new 1x11 systems get some pretty steep angles on the chain as well with no ill effect.
I avoid it as I like to get 7000km out of a chain.
And new 1x11 systems get some pretty steep angles on the chain as well with no ill effect.
I avoid it as I like to get 7000km out of a chain.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Missouri
Posts: 710
Bikes: Nashbar CR5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Yeah definitely sounds like an issue of component life to me. Ever see a pro team bus / mechanics truck? They wear a part out and there's a dozen more in a drawer somewhere and if that doesn't work; they are a quick phone call away from a stack of new ones. Heck, not only are they not paying for the parts; the manufacturer is paying them (or their team at least) for the privilege of having those riders ride their bikes.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,549
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5705 Post(s)
Liked 2,435 Times
in
1,346 Posts
Cross chaining is like a high fat desert. Folks make a big deal of it, but it's not so bad if you don't make a steady diet of it.
Any time the chain runs at an angle, friction and wear will increase. But it's a matter of degree. If you look at your chainline, you'll see that cross chain is only slightly worse than so-called OK combinations. However, these days there's a new factor, because the rings are closer together. Many bikes cannot run small/small without the chain brushing against the inside of the outer ring.
So, use the gear combination that makes sense for you. For example if you're climbing a relatively short hill and working through the cassette, the "rules" would dictate that bring the front over somewhere near the middle of the shift sequence. But if you decide that you can climb in on the outer ring with the inner cassette sprockets, this may be preferable to shifting the front mid climb. I do this daily on a particular hill where I work down through the range, topping the hill in big/big.
So, like with your diet, feel free to indulge yourself from time to time, but use some common sense.
Any time the chain runs at an angle, friction and wear will increase. But it's a matter of degree. If you look at your chainline, you'll see that cross chain is only slightly worse than so-called OK combinations. However, these days there's a new factor, because the rings are closer together. Many bikes cannot run small/small without the chain brushing against the inside of the outer ring.
So, use the gear combination that makes sense for you. For example if you're climbing a relatively short hill and working through the cassette, the "rules" would dictate that bring the front over somewhere near the middle of the shift sequence. But if you decide that you can climb in on the outer ring with the inner cassette sprockets, this may be preferable to shifting the front mid climb. I do this daily on a particular hill where I work down through the range, topping the hill in big/big.
So, like with your diet, feel free to indulge yourself from time to time, but use some common sense.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 8,688
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1074 Post(s)
Liked 295 Times
in
222 Posts
Cross-chaining is never "good", but establishing a widely agreed definition of how "bad" it is isn't gonna happen.
Sometimes the degree of "bad" is so small that you might as well go ahead. It's entirely comparable to service interval, easing up on power while shifting etc etc.
Sometimes the degree of "bad" is so small that you might as well go ahead. It's entirely comparable to service interval, easing up on power while shifting etc etc.
#7
Fatty McFatcakes
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Krispy Kreme
Posts: 987
Bikes: Aero Cheeseburger w/ Sr(h)am eBacon
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
I don't know if cross chaining is as bad as some might believe, but I'll tell you why I avoid it.
- It's unnecessary. The gear ratios are redundant. There's an art & technique to proper shifting. Mastering it shows you have respect for the bike.
- It's generally considered bad form. Much like getting grease marks from your pedals on your calves, it's a sign of an inexperienced, green rider.
- Some riders like the crispest, fastest shifting on their FD as possible. This necessitates setting the high & low stops to less than a mm from the chain. This creates chain rub in the extreme cross-chain combos – serving as an audible reminder that you're doing it wrong.
#8
Passista
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,588
Bikes: 1998 Pinarello Asolo, 1992 KHS Montaña pro, 1980 Raleigh DL-1, IGH Hybrid, IGH Utility
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 866 Post(s)
Liked 713 Times
in
393 Posts
I don't know anything about MTBiking, but I heard some racers say they climbed rough steep grades on their big/big to have more chain tension.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,095 Times
in
741 Posts
All of the above examples are support for the requirement that your chain HAS to be long enough to allow big-big. Whether you plan to use it or not it has to work.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,652
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 835 Post(s)
Liked 1,057 Times
in
741 Posts
I cross chain all the time when going from stoplight to stoplight. I keep it in the big chainring and start off in the lowest (25t) cog at each stop and as HillRider mentioned my chain is long enough to handle it. It saves me from having to keep shifting from small to large chainring constantly. I still get at least 3500 miles from each chain and only need to change out the cassette every third chain so hard to know how much mileage suffers, hardly worth it to me to worry about a few dollars every year. When not having to stop every 200 yards I'll use the proper gear. I suppose you could also argue that my front derailleur and shifter will last longer as well not being used as much saving a few bucks somewhere in the equation but I'm old and just want to enjoy the ride without the extra fuss.
#11
Banned
OK if you have a Truck full of spare parts that are potentially replaced daily By team mechanics , then It may not matter ..
Million+ dollar pro Race teams can make different choices, than amateurs buying everything out of pocket.
Million+ dollar pro Race teams can make different choices, than amateurs buying everything out of pocket.
Last edited by fietsbob; 03-16-15 at 08:33 AM.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225
Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1572 Post(s)
Liked 642 Times
in
363 Posts
Some of us aren't convinced it matters all that much even if you don't have a truck full of spares following you around.
__________________
My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
#13
Banned
If you have a super long distance between the crank and wheel on a Recumbent, it doesn't..
I went with the function of the Gear Ratio needed and Double shift at the overlap Points .
Now The bushingless chains wear faster as they have to get thinner too ..all wear concentrates at roller edges
After the 7th cog was added , .. I went over to IGH.. ..
I went with the function of the Gear Ratio needed and Double shift at the overlap Points .
Now The bushingless chains wear faster as they have to get thinner too ..all wear concentrates at roller edges
After the 7th cog was added , .. I went over to IGH.. ..
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,549
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5705 Post(s)
Liked 2,435 Times
in
1,346 Posts
Some people see cross chaining as a black and white issue, but realistically it's only slightly worse than the so-called allowable combinations. This isn't black and white at all, just a matter of degree where more is worse and less is better.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#15
working on my sandal tan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times
in
1,574 Posts
Staying in the big ring all the time is more "pro."
Apart from that, I think @FBinNY's "dessert" analogy sums it up well.
Apart from that, I think @FBinNY's "dessert" analogy sums it up well.
#16
Senior Member
It used to be much more of an issue in the days of yore when chains were much less flexible from side to side. Back when exposed derailleurs were a new thing, a lot of British riders developed an obsession for absolutely perfect chainline.
#17
Zip tie Karen
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Posts: 7,006
Bikes: '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022, '21 Tsunami SNM-100
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1465 Post(s)
Liked 1,542 Times
in
806 Posts
But...
I'm sorry, but this made me laugh. I agree, one can cross chain occasionally. I try not to do it, and have by accident. I also try not to eat dessert, but have once in a while - not by accident, though.
Last edited by Phil_gretz; 03-16-15 at 12:42 PM. Reason: re-checked dessert
#19
Banned
Museeuw tempo climbing those last hills to Liege, in a Big Gear, dropped the rest of the field .
#20
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398
Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1549 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times
in
504 Posts
No, the bikes are designed to handle all the gear combinations they are built with. As far as I know, no manufactures advise against using them.
#22
Keepin it Wheel
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 10,238
Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Krampus
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked 3,400 Times
in
2,511 Posts
I cross chain all the time when going from stoplight to stoplight. I keep it in the big chainring and start off in the lowest (25t) cog at each stop and as HillRider mentioned my chain is long enough to handle it. It saves me from having to keep shifting from small to large chainring constantly.
#23
Nigel
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,991
Bikes: 1980s and 1990s steel: CyclePro, Nishiki, Schwinn, SR, Trek........
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 384 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
6 Posts
And not mentioned above (sorry if I missed it); some of us have our cranks set up a bit differently than "spec". On most of my bikes, I have the big ring close to center of the cassette, and give up the ability to use the smaller cogs with the smaller chain rings. For example, on our tandem, the big ring (54T) easily accesses all of the 9 speed (11-34) cassette; the middle ring (44T) doesn't work with the 11T cog; and the granny ring (26T) only works well to about 1/2 way across the cassette. It is almost a 1x9 with two smaller chain rings added. This works well for us, but your mileage maybe different.