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Old 02-15-18, 06:13 AM
  #4851  
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I'd always heard the same about clinchers... I think a lot of it is just repeated "knowledge" from a bygone era.

In my experience I've never had or seen a clincher "blow off the rim" like many of the arguments on the net against them seem to think is guaranteed to happen, but I could see a scenario where you flatted on the track towards the top, and as you cut back down it rolled it off and possibly toppled you and/or ruined your rim... in which case if you had a seriously glued on tubie (I know some folks love that carpet glue still) it *might* stay on and not roll off. That's pretty corner case.

*Of course for racing on a smooth track you can't get the same pressure in a clincher, and currently no tyre manufacturer makes a track specific super low crr (on par with vitt pista evo's/olympics/dugast silks/etc) so if you want the fastest out there, you do still have to go with a tubular.
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Old 02-15-18, 09:23 AM
  #4852  
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Originally Posted by Morelock
I'd always heard the same about clinchers... I think a lot of it is just repeated "knowledge" from a bygone era.

In my experience I've never had or seen a clincher "blow off the rim" like many of the arguments on the net against them seem to think is guaranteed to happen, but I could see a scenario where you flatted on the track towards the top, and as you cut back down it rolled it off and possibly toppled you and/or ruined your rim... in which case if you had a seriously glued on tubie (I know some folks love that carpet glue still) it *might* stay on and not roll off. That's pretty corner case.

*Of course for racing on a smooth track you can't get the same pressure in a clincher, and currently no tyre manufacturer makes a track specific super low crr (on par with vitt pista evo's/olympics/dugast silks/etc) so if you want the fastest out there, you do still have to go with a tubular.
I agree about the repeated knowledge lore that goes round and round. Getting rid of the old "facts" is why we communicate, right?

I can't really comment on crr, but some Vredstein tires go up to 160psi and Tufo Tubular Clinchers (tubular tire with a clincher bead attached for use on clincher rims) can go over 200psi.

That being said, I've seen household names using Conti GP 4000s on clincher training wheels. Conti GP Supersonic were supposed to be fast clincher race wheels. I loved them. But, I think they are not available anymore.

For clarification, I'm not making a case for clincher race wheels. Just asking in general.
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Old 02-15-18, 10:04 AM
  #4853  
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It's possible if you had a really high psi in a clincher, then it might "blow" when/if you flatted. I dunno if that's high enough for it to blow off or not, I've never ran clinchers over 90psi.

SuSo's are still out there, the 20mm one got wider last year which sucked for those of us with narrow front wheels (HED3) - fwiw of the "super low crr" clinchers the SuSo's were the most resilient in my experience. Black Chili compound hype.

* personally I wouldn't hesitate to race on clinchers. Especially on an outdoor track that isn't super smooth (looking at you turn4 DLV )
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Old 02-15-18, 01:33 PM
  #4854  
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I train on Mavic Ellipses with Vittoria Rubio Pro clinchers. They are great for training because they are slow and bomb proof! I have flatted on the rear wheel and made it out alive down off the banking on VSC. I do race on disks and FF 90s with Vittoria speeds which are kind of fragile, but feel great and are fast. I agree that the old saw concerning "safety" of clinchers is no longer true, if it ever was.
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Old 02-15-18, 03:54 PM
  #4855  
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I've been racing and training on clinchers ever since I started track riding. I started off with Vittoria Diamante Pros that came on my first track bike. They were a great tyre and lasted 2.5 seasons. Since then I tried Conti SuSos (lasted a few months - super unhappy with them), went back to the Vittorias (they had gone down from a 160psi max to 145 and only lasted a season this time) and now do almost everything on Conti GP4000S2. I have a second set of wheels nowadays and my original wheels (Velocity aeroheads 32/32 to DA hubs) now roll on Veloflex records that I only ride on bigger race days outdoors or for training indoors. My tubs only ever get used for boards racing. I've never had a problem with clinchers.

Not sure about elsewhere worldwide, but over here all racing from U17 and younger is on alloy clinchers. When you go to outdoor track carnivals, I would say at least half, if not more of the racers are using alloy clinchers. I've only ever seen one blowout mid race and the guy held it up and didn't affect any one else
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Old 02-15-18, 06:20 PM
  #4856  
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10-20mm risers for 3T aerobars

I sent a request to 3T and asked if they had a riser kit for the Minstral aero bars, and they said no.
Then I found this.

https://www.bikebling.com/3T-Mistral...-riser-kit.htm

Huh? Has anyone raised these bars? I'd actually prefer to just raise the pads instead of the bars, which is what I do on my TT bike. I have 10mm spacer between the pads and bars. But the spacers in between the bars and the pursuit bars is fine I suppose - same end
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Old 02-15-18, 07:12 PM
  #4857  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung
I sent a request to 3T and asked if they had a riser kit for the Minstral aero bars, and they said no.
Then I found this.

https://www.bikebling.com/3T-Mistral...-riser-kit.htm

Huh? Has anyone raised these bars? I'd actually prefer to just raise the pads instead of the bars, which is what I do on my TT bike. I have 10mm spacer between the pads and bars. But the spacers in between the bars and the pursuit bars is fine I suppose - same end
it seems like it's what you need. It seems like it solves your problem. What is the reason for not getting it?
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Old 02-15-18, 07:49 PM
  #4858  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung
I sent a request to 3T and asked if they had a riser kit for the Minstral aero bars, and they said no.
Then I found this.

https://www.bikebling.com/3T-Mistral...-riser-kit.htm

Huh? Has anyone raised these bars? I'd actually prefer to just raise the pads instead of the bars, which is what I do on my TT bike. I have 10mm spacer between the pads and bars. But the spacers in between the bars and the pursuit bars is fine I suppose - same end
so Mistral's mount underneath the base bar. 3T used to supply a conversion kit to mount them on top of the base bar, but I doubt it's still around.

You *could* (not saying it's safe to do so) reverse the way the clamps are mounted (mounting them on top of the base bar) and then put risers underneath the pads to bring them up above the now raised bars...

Are you sure you have Mistals? What you're describing doesn't match up with them.
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Old 02-15-18, 11:22 PM
  #4859  
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Originally Posted by Morelock
so Mistral's mount underneath the base bar. 3T used to supply a conversion kit to mount them on top of the base bar, but I doubt it's still around.

You *could* (not saying it's safe to do so) reverse the way the clamps are mounted (mounting them on top of the base bar) and then put risers underneath the pads to bring them up above the now raised bars...

Are you sure you have Mistals? What you're describing doesn't match up with them.
They are Minsrtal Pros. Is there also a standard Minstral? See pic
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Old 02-16-18, 04:32 AM
  #4860  
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yep, that's them.

If you ONLY want to raise the pads, that kit you linked *should* work. (The only issue might be that the mistrals base bars curves into a "tear" shape a bit more than 3T's other bars, so it might not sit flush.) You'll also need different bolts than those supplied with the kit (although that's easily solved with a trip to home depot/lowes) since the mistrals pads bolt directly into the base bar.

I think the person you spoke to at 3T (as well as me at first) were assuming you wanted to raise the extensions and the pads. To do that you'd need the conversion kit (part # 30006, MISTRAL combo clamp conversion kit) which makes it mount similarly to a Brezza/Aura/etc. Here's a picture of the kit installed on one of Zabriskie's old Felts. I haven't seen one floating around in years though.

TL;DR the link you posted should allow you to raise ONLY the pads, so long as you have the right bolts.
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Old 02-16-18, 08:02 AM
  #4861  
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Originally Posted by taras0000
it seems like it's what you need. It seems like it solves your problem. What is the reason for not getting it?
My bars are the Minstral Pro. I think the kit is for a standard Minstral
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Old 02-16-18, 08:19 AM
  #4862  
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There was only one version of Mistral sold. They are all "Pro" models.
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Old 02-16-18, 09:26 AM
  #4863  
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Originally Posted by Morelock
There was only one version of Mistral sold. They are all "Pro" models.
Ok, got that, but I am confused on how the kit actually raises the pursuit bars and the pads on top of them. If you add the spacers below underneath the pursuit bars and in between the Aero bars, it will simply lower the aero bars and the pursuit bars and pads will stay at the same level, because the height of the pursuit bars are fixed to the height of the stem.

It seems that the only way to raise the pursuit bars and pads, without increasing the height of the stem the stem, would be to place the spacers underneath the pads. Am I missing something? Need more coffee!
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Old 02-16-18, 10:05 AM
  #4864  
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You are correct.

Is your objective to have a setup similar to this? Note the short, medium, & tall risers on the 3 bikes.



If so, you will have to use a different set of aerobars. I created a set of "kilo bars" using 3T system with the extended risers back in 2010 or so when they first came out with the modular system. It was awesome.

I sold them when I realized that riding the Kilo was for fools and madmen.

Last edited by carleton; 02-16-18 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 02-16-18, 11:23 AM
  #4865  
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Carleton is (mostly) right, although you CAN convert them if you really wanted to, hunting down/buying the parts is probably more expensive than just selling them and buying some brezza's/aura's

3T made the Mistrals to be a low stack bar (due to an "outcry" at the time that all their other bars had very high stack) and while parts of them (the pad position) are very adjustable, pretty much everything else is not adjustable, particularly stack.

What you have is this
[top]
pad bolts
pads
hardware mounting bolts (for extensions below basebar)
basebar
mounting hardware / extensions
[bottom]

First a caution... DO NOT add spacers BELOW the base bar. The Mistrals are not designed for that.

So your choices with what you have right now are limited to basically adding spacers between the pads and the base bar (I've done this for athletes in the past on this bar so it will work) OR buying additional hardware. THIS specifically is what you need. (conveniently out of stock) but you could also use any of the mounting brackets cannibalized off of a Brezza/Aura bar. With those brackets, the extensions AND the pads mount above the bar (like the picture I posted above) - if you do this you do lose the adjustability of moving the pads as far out as you'd (possibly) like.

If you look at the 3T AURA bar, it is exactly the same as the Mistral with the exception that it already has this mounting hardware. (and it doesn't have the little holes in the basebar for wider mounting of the pads)

Last edited by Morelock; 02-16-18 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 02-16-18, 12:39 PM
  #4866  
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I travel for work and there happens to be two outdoor tracks within less than an hour drive of the one work location.

If I had a free night to go try a race and get your butt kicked, what race (scratch, elimination, Danish/Dutch race) would you do if you knew the following:

-newbie with basic safety intro course completed
-can manage low 600's watts for a minute, about 360 or so for 3 minutes, I can pull out a 1200w sprint if I have to........I'm not very big, right now 70kg.
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Old 02-16-18, 12:43 PM
  #4867  
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most race nights have several races for entrants. if you're traveling... go do 'em all. that's the best way to learn.

your wattage will matter less than your ability to see what's going on around you and ride accordingly.
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Old 02-16-18, 12:53 PM
  #4868  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
..................... Danish/Dutch race..........................
What is this race - a search did not find it.
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Old 02-16-18, 02:12 PM
  #4869  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
I travel for work and there happens to be two outdoor tracks within less than an hour drive of the one work location.

If I had a free night to go try a race and get your butt kicked, what race (scratch, elimination, Danish/Dutch race) would you do if you knew the following:

-newbie with basic safety intro course completed
-can manage low 600's watts for a minute, about 360 or so for 3 minutes, I can pull out a 1200w sprint if I have to........I'm not very big, right now 70kg.
As queerpunk says, do them all.

Doing well and winning mean very little in the beginner CAT5/D races. The points are only kept for when it's time to apply for an upgrade. You need experience. Race as much as you can. Most racers race every event for a given race night.

Do not expect to do well. Pay attention and focus on safety and finishing each race.

I've seen people go balls-out in a beginner race and it's not necessary. These are "training races" not unlike pickup basketball games at the YMCA. You are simply playing on the least competitive court.

Don't be discouraged by what I'm writing. You will have fun. And we all had to race them in order to progress to higher divisions. Even P/1/2 racers have to start on CAT5/D.
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Old 02-16-18, 04:50 PM
  #4870  
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Thanks! Agreed. For fun and experience.

I think I remember the Danish race is where there is a bunch sprint every few laps and if you win you’re out and that’s your place starting from first place until top 5 is set. Dutch or Belgian is opposite, you win an early sprint you get a worse finish. But if you wait till end you may not plce at all.
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Old 02-16-18, 06:19 PM
  #4871  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
.............
I think I remember the Danish race is where there is a bunch sprint every few laps and if you win you’re out and that’s your place starting from first place until top 5 is set. ......................
Thanks - sounds like the "Win and Out" races we have at my local track.
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Old 02-16-18, 06:53 PM
  #4872  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel
Thanks - sounds like the "Win and Out" races we have at my local track.
Yup. The first one sounds like a "Win and Out" where after a set number of laps, there are 3 sprints in a row for 1st, then 2nd, then 3rd places (where the winner of each lap wins that position then safely exits the track), then one more final lap for the final placements.

The race is a big gamble. You don't want to burn a match and lose the sprint because that could effectively takes you out of the subsequent sprints.

Many newbies simply burn all matches on the first bell, lose, and are a wreck afterwards for the rest of the race.

Last edited by carleton; 02-16-18 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 02-16-18, 07:38 PM
  #4873  
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Originally Posted by Morelock
Carleton is (mostly) right, although you CAN convert them if you really wanted to, hunting down/buying the parts is probably more expensive than just selling them and buying some brezza's/aura's

3T made the Mistrals to be a low stack bar (due to an "outcry" at the time that all their other bars had very high stack) and while parts of them (the pad position) are very adjustable, pretty much everything else is not adjustable, particularly stack.

What you have is this
[top]
pad bolts
pads
hardware mounting bolts (for extensions below basebar)
basebar
mounting hardware / extensions
[bottom]

First a caution... DO NOT add spacers BELOW the base bar. The Mistrals are not designed for that.

So your choices with what you have right now are limited to basically adding spacers between the pads and the base bar (I've done this for athletes in the past on this bar so it will work) OR buying additional hardware. THIS specifically is what you need. (conveniently out of stock) but you could also use any of the mounting brackets cannibalized off of a Brezza/Aura bar. With those brackets, the extensions AND the pads mount above the bar (like the picture I posted above) - if you do this you do lose the adjustability of moving the pads as far out as you'd (possibly) like.

If you look at the 3T AURA bar, it is exactly the same as the Mistral with the exception that it already has this mounting hardware. (and it doesn't have the little holes in the basebar for wider mounting of the pads)
Well, it's probably all irrelevant for me now, as of a few hours ago. I had my stem dropped all the way down, all spacers removed. The reason why I wanted to be able to stack the pads or pursuit bars higher was I thought maybe the drop would be too aggressive, but it turns out it is perfect. I have very flexible hamstrings and hip flexors so I'm very comfortable with an aggressive aero position on the bike, with no loss of power.

My only reason for getting some new bars now is to get a better set of pads that are not so flat, but are more curved and arm hugging....not a major deal for me now.
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Old 02-16-18, 09:29 PM
  #4874  
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Carleton, I will share my experience. In my first races on the track back in the early 90s I got to watch several riders flat clinchers and immediately roll the tires off causing major incidents. Seeing that will make you swear them off. A couple of years ago I built a set of clincher training wheels and had some unsettling experiences with them. When I would turn hard on the track it would feel like the tire was rolling off the rim. I switched back to tubulars and haven't looked back.

The above said I am larger than the normal track racer, and I tend to be hard on equipment. I have seen plenty of people ride/race on clinchers with no issues, but my initial experiences of having to dodge riders who crashed due to tires rolling off of clincher rims I won't ride them on the track.

Nate
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Old 02-16-18, 10:54 PM
  #4875  
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Originally Posted by Nate2453
Carleton, I will share my experience. In my first races on the track back in the early 90s I got to watch several riders flat clinchers and immediately roll the tires off causing major incidents. Seeing that will make you swear them off. A couple of years ago I built a set of clincher training wheels and had some unsettling experiences with them. When I would turn hard on the track it would feel like the tire was rolling off the rim. I switched back to tubulars and haven't looked back.

The above said I am larger than the normal track racer, and I tend to be hard on equipment. I have seen plenty of people ride/race on clinchers with no issues, but my initial experiences of having to dodge riders who crashed due to tires rolling off of clincher rims I won't ride them on the track.

Nate
Could it be that tire and/or rim manufacturing techniques and tolerances are better? I recall being able to mount a new Conti tire with only hands in the 90s and early 2000s. But in the past 10 years or more, I have to fight to get them on even using shop quality tire levers. Cursing. Once I got so pissed I took it to a local bike shop and had absolutely no shame at all paying another man to mount a tire for me.

Most recently, it took me over 30 minutes to mount the two Vittoria tires on my training wheels a couple of months ago. Hands were sore afterwards.
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