snarkypup

Warning: this is half-rant. There is a question at the end, I promise.

So, before I went to Ireland, I left my '69 Raleigh Sports with my local mechanic for a "yearly tune-up," and to fix a loose cotter. He isn't my favorite mech, but he's a nice guy, he's close, and he loves vintage bikes and swore, when asked point blank if he could do this, that he would do a better job than my usual guy (who is a LOOOONG drive away). So I trustred him. I returned 10 days later sick as a dog, and hadn't looked at nor ridden the bike since my BF helped me load it up and bring it home. Last night I decided that I wanted to do a short "commute" on it, driving it most of the way to work then riding it the last 3 miles, and back again after work. I didn't do a thing to it but throw it on the bike rack, thinking: "it just had a complete tune-up a week ago. Everything should be golden."

Ha.

First off, I noticed that the kickstand wasn't working properly. The bike was unstable and saggy. Being an old bike, you can see where the kickstand has been, and that wasn't where it currently was. "Ah well," I thought. "He had to take it off to put in the new cotter and regrease the bb, so he must have put it back in the wrong spot. I'll just adjust it later." Then I got on the bike, loaded with a rear pannier with laptop, etc, and headed off. The ride was a bit "off" feeling, but then, I haven't ridden the bike in nearly a month, so I wasn't sure what I was feeling, exactly. About a mile in, I decided to, you know... brake.

SCREEEEEETCH! WTF? My brakes have never squealed like that. And stopping power? Nearly zero. I got off and looked at the rear brake. The rear wheel, my nice new CR-18 rim, was BLACK with grease. My spokes were completely black with thick grease. Like... black from the hub to the nipple. My shiny Sturmey Archer was black. My chain was a disaster, covered in grimy black gunk. Double WTF! Did he leave the oil cap off when he regreased the rear hub? No... Looked at the front hub: huge globs of green grease covered one side, up the spokes and onto the fork! Triple WTF. I keep my bike very clean. This was terrible!

Then I turned. Something made a horrible scraping feel. I was now a mile from work, so I just coasted in. One of my co-workers was a mechanic for years at Gregg's, which is a local chain bike shop. I went to grab him.

He was shocked at the condition of the bike. "I've never seen a bike go back to a customer this dirty. Why is there chain grease everywhere? Is this a really old chain?" Nope, changed it 3 months ago. "But it's filthy!" Yes, I know. Sigh. First, he figures out what's making the horrible scraping feeling: my front fender stays are loose and the fender is scraping the wheel. He tightens those. Then he tries to adjust the kickstand. "Someone tightened this thing down so hard they broke the washer. You'll have to replace that." So no kickstand. We scrub down the rims, spokes, hubs, pads and wheels with alchohol wipes. It takes nearly an half an hour to get everything nearly clean. Then he says: "Your tires are flat. Why did he return it to you with two flat tires? Why wouldn't he have put some air in these?" Why didn't I check them like I normally do? Oh yeah, because it was supposed to be tuned-up! I gave it to him with air in the tires... so I guess I expected to get it back with air in the tires. Silly me. Finally, the big one:

"Why are the pedals turning when I'm just rolling the bike? What's up with the freewheel?" Freewheel? Does the Raleigh even have a freewheel? "Well," he says, "I'm no expert in ancient Sturmey Archers, but I bet your pedals aren't supposed to be rotating when you aren't pedaling." I'm pretty sure he's right about that, as I had to uh... walk a hill or two tonight, and I've never had to avoid my pedals because they were spinning as I walked the bike.

So I'm at work. Must ride back to my car. I carefully ride back the last few miles, worried about pinch flats (no one had a working pump, and I couldn't get my purely-for-show-frame-pump to do anything meaningful). The brakes work, at least. The bike is beastly hard to pedal and keeps slipping out of first gear into second. When I stop pedaling in second for even a moment, the bike slips out of gear and takes a second to get back in. That was not happening before. I realize that's a simple adjustment for someone who knows what they're doing, but did I mention the bike was just TUNED-UP?

So now I have to go back to the mechanic and tell him I'm mad, I'm hurt and I want my bike fixed. Actually, I really want a refund and then to take it to the good mechanic. But I want to know: why are the pedals turning when I'm not pedaling? What did he do wrong? What should I be asking him to fix?

Sheesh.

SteveSGP

I can't explain your pedals but I'd never let that guy touch my bike again, you should certainly ask for a refund!

wahoonc

Two reasons that the pedals might be turning, the chain is too tight, or the bearings in the hub are too tight. I am assuming that it did not do this before. FWIW if you have time I would learn to do your own maintenance, then you know it will be done right. I only pay the LBS if I am in a hurry and don't have time to deal with it, which is rarely.

Aaron

gna

Cranks turn when you push a bike with an SA hub if:
* Chain is too tight
* Cone adjustment is too tight in SA hub.
* Hub is varnished up and full of old gunk.

Good luck with a refund.

EDIT: Aaron was faster than I.

jeepr

So it's a 3 speed right? If it's not the above, it kind of sounds like he may have filled the rear hub with grease. If so, I give him an A for effort. That's gotta take a lot of work. Not going to be a simple fix if he did. I would think it needs to be disassembled and cleaned, reassembled and lubed properly.

gna

Oh God, I didn't even think of that. I suppose it's possible, but I hope for your sake he didn't do that...

auchencrow

OMG. I fear you may be right.

cudak888 

Mis-adjusting an SA AW, jamming the chain tight to ensure the driver is being yanked to one side, and filling it with grease constitutes abuse via ignorance in my book. It can't even begin to be compared to a repair.

I could fill an entire book about the rest without having to nitpick, so I won't - but I will say this: Demand a refund - with a copy of this thread in hand.

-Kurt

auchencrow

-A refund is in order if the chain or hub is misadjusted -But if he filled the hub with grease you have a major clean-up job to do, and I'd demand remuneration.

Sixty Fiver

I want you to go down to that shop and demand a full refund and ask if your mechanic has clue 1 as to how to service and set up a Sturmey Archer hub and if he says yes, tell him he is full of ****.

If he has a problem with that he can call me and I will set him straight on a few things.

Don't know if the chain is too tight, if the bearings have been mis adjusted, or if this idiot packed your hub with grease... or managed to do all three at once.

If he packed the hub with grease it will have to be taken apart and cleaned completely before it gets put back together.

The greasy dirt, lack of air in the tyres, and loose and over torqued parts are also inexcusable.

If I ever get the chance to spend any time in Seattle, and this might be a yearly trip, the tune up will be on me.

snarkypup

This is all really alarming. Sigh. I don't think he filled the rear hub with grease. The hub cap is on tight, and not leaking as far as I can tell. I rode it three miles tonight and everything is still clean and shiny. I know he knows what to put in the hub, as we've discussed it at length. In fact, this is the person who put the bike together, and he owns 3 or 4 of these old SA 3-speeds himself, so I doubt that's it. My ex-mechanic coworker thought it was chain grease, not grease from the hub, and that the over-greased chain had sprayed the grease everywhere. I wonder if he did over-tighten the chain, and then somehow over-lube it in an attempt to compensate. As far as I know, he wasn't going to touch the hub in the course of all this.

But honestly, I'm just really puzzled. He's worked on all of my more modern bikes, and never done anything like this. In fact, he's always done very good work. Not as fantasticly precise on adjusting the Raleigh as my favorite mechanic, but not in any way shoddy. He's done plenty to this bike and always returned it in great condition, as well as my Shogun and Panasonic. So I called the shop to ask if he had actually done the work, as I knew he was feeling ill when I picked it up. I thought maybe one of the other guys had filled in for him, and done the work instead. But no, they insisted that only he had worked on it. He has told me he loves this bike and even keeps my bikes in the bathroom at the shop to make sure they aren't knocked around! I mean, this guy is usually someone I would trust to do very good work. Make a mistake and overtighten a chain? Maybe. But give me back a filthy, unsafe bike? No. I'm just floored.

I don't know if he'll give me any money back, but at the very least, I'm going to ask what happened and expect him to make good in some way. Then the Raleigh is going to the good mechanic and get a thorough re-tune, even though I'll have to pay for it.

I'm angry, frustrated and very, very puzzled.

well biked

snarkypup, you've mentioned "chain grease" a couple of times. Your chain should not be lubed with grease, nor covered with it, not at all.

snarkypup

Well biked, that was always my understanding! My other bikes do not have greasy chains, nor did this one... until now.

Riding in Ireland, all our bikes had chains as disgusting as this one and one of my fellow riders was horrified: "They're still using grease?"

mapleleafs-13 

that sucks to hear, i hate bike shops with a passion lately, in toronto there's only two places i go, Community bike network (co-op) to rent a stand and use tools that i don't have at home, and Urbane cyclist cause all their people seem to be really into bikes and they always seem to know what i'm talking about, they're a great place to buy parts.

I've pretty much given up on taking my bike to a bike shop for service after a whole bunch of bad run ins with different shops, it seems like no one knows how to work on vintage stuff.. that's why i learned to do everything myself...

so my best advice to snarkypup is to try to learn to do tune ups and maintenance yourself, cause i would never let anyone else touch my pinarello or any of my other bikes i own. Plus it's wayyyy more satisfying when you can say to someone that you maintain your own bike and you did all the work!

who knows maybe you can make some side money cause people know that you're good at fixing bikes!

snarkypup

Unfortunately, I have a condition that causes me to have very painful hands and an inability to turn things with any strength, so wrenching my own bikes is out. I have to use a good mechanic. The one I like in Seattle is fabulous with these bikes, and can do miracles. Unfortunately, due to traffic, he's an hour away from me, even though the shop is only about 15 miles as the crow flies. It's hard to muster up the energy to drive an hour in horrible traffic, but I guess that's where I am at this point.

mapleleafs-13 

u said you have a bf right? maybe it's time to get him addicted into C&V and turn him into a mechanic at the same time! hahah

snarkypup

God, he'd be hopeless! Not all men are mechanical, trust me . He's a sweetie, but not at all capable of that!

Michael Angelo 

Demand a refund at the busiest time of day, and make sure your voice carries thru out the store. They will run to give you your money back.

strock 

Well, maybe what you need is a joint effort. You oversee the maintenance and provide instruction while your BF does the actual wrenching. I think that would work for my wife and me -- NOT.

wrk101

+1 On the joint effort.

Owning an old vintage bike, is like owning a vintage house. Its really best to either be able to do the repair work yourself, or have a handy spouse/friend/partner. Short of that, developing a ready network of trained professionals is very desirable. Unfortunately, a mechanic quite good with the modern stuff may know zilch about the vintage stuff, yet plow right ahead with the job anyway. I can't think of a mechanic around here I would let touch my old stuff.

I've got two vintage houses. Its definitely the same there too. Electricians, carpenters, roofers, and other specialists, that might be great with modern homes, are often lousy on the old stuff. My one house is rock, and finding anyone who understands rock construction techniques is even more difficult. Had a heck of a time finding a roofer who knew how to flash around a rock chimney.

Road Fan

Edit/apology: Snarky, I must apologize, I wrote these comments before reading about your hand condition! I agree with the others that you may have to develop the skills of someone within your sphere, and Cuthbertson's book would be a good starting point to at least enable you to know what's right for that bike. Sometimes it's necessary to convince the shop that you really do know how the bike should be when it's delivered, and are capable of recognizing mistakes if they make any. I find it very hard to believe the owner of this shop, as you describe him, did this work. If he is that good, it's probably worthwhile and maybe fair to give them a chance, but be firm about the hub. IT is very important and has a lot of internal parts. People who twiddle and crank on wrenches without paying attention should not be inside it, or perhaps not even adding oil. And the chain should not be taut like that of a fixed gear - needs 1/2" to 1" of vertical play.

Is this the shop that installed the CR18 rims on this bike? Amazing that this happened at a shop that would take that on.(end edit/apology)

This travesty smacks of an ignorant mechanic, perhaps one of the HS kids, who was not monitored by the senior mechanic or shop owner. To take on such a specialized (by modern standards) job without knowing what to do nor to exercise basic servicing skills (re-tighten what you loosen, look at the customer's machine before delivering it, don't over-torque, don't loosen what does not need it on an old bike, check a reference manual or with someone who knows when you are not sure what's right, note the operation of the customer's bike before servicing it so you don't make things worse, know how to make critical adjustments such as shifting thresholds), is just misleading the customer. It's the mechanic's fault and the shop owner's fault. They owe you, and should pay to set your hub right. But I don't know if I'd trust them to do the work!

If they pressure-greased it, the grease was in the hub under pressure. S-A hubs are not sealed. An excess of oil will leak down the spokes until, guess what, there is no longer an excess; the remanent amount of oil is the right amount, elegant British engineering. I could see the centrifugal force of riding driving out excess grease, and making it migrate out along the spokes until it's all over the rims. I don't know why this might have happened in front unless it was just plain overgreased. The front hubs aren't sealed, either, at least not Raleigh's original.

Fixing the kickstand should just be a matter of muscling out the bolt and re-assembling with the correct washer and torque.

Snarks, you need a good book on mechanicking that covers your bike. This is all part of the reasons most true freaks are doing our own work - the risk of going to a shop (I hate to say it!). One of the best books for home maintainance of bikes of this era is "Anybody's Bike Book," a whimsical, clear, understandable, and pretty complete manual written by Tom Cuthbertson. It was sold in paperback around 1970 and later, and used copies abound in bookstores and on the 'Bay. I have a spare copy, if you want it. It doesn't have the encyclopedic reference-manual depth of Sutherland's Handbook or the Barnett's Bicycle Institute Handbook, but IMO it's one of the best learning tools.

There are documented techniques for lubing those hubs, setting the shifting correctly, brake adjustment, proper tightening, and types of lubes. None of this needed to happen, even in the modern day.

But you have Powell's Books up there, right? Should be a few copies of Cuthbertson kicking around their shops.

chaiwalli

could it be that someone else also worked on the bike?

i do hope you get a refund and i would definitely take it to the other guy you trust: your mental health is worth the drive and effort :-)

Sigurdd50

I have a very dog eared copy with greasy black smudges on the the pages of the brake chapter especially. This book was one of the reasons why, in high school, in the early 70's, I got hooked on biking and working on my bike. I smashed more knuckles, and stabbed myself with more misguided screwdrivers because of this... but I loved every minute!

rhm

I agree with those who suggested that someone other than a competent mechanic worked on the bike. You should definitely go back there and show the boss what's wrong, and let him puzzle over it.

Now, forgive me if this sounds like a semantic quibble, but: Are you sure the chain is covered with grease, rather than oil? Once upon a time it was normal to put oil on chains, before better chain lubricants were developed. I imagine they put a lot of oil in the hub as well, and this leaked out and got everywhere. Pumping the hub full of oil would be overzealous incompetence, while pumping it full of grease would be incompetence on a whole nother level.

As for wrenching your own bile, I understand that I don't understand the condition you describe. Obviously you know your limits better than anyone. Nonetheless, I would strongly recommend learning what has to be done and learning how you can do it without causing yourself undue discomfort. If it hurts to put move the wrench on the axle nuts, do what Archimedes would have done: use a lever. In other words, put a good long cheater bar on the wrench. For a man with normal strength such as most of us on this forum, it would be a really dumb idea to use a cheater bar like that, but in your case it might be just the thing. At any rate, I think this is a hobby that requires you to know enough about your bike that you can, at least in theory, do all the repairs yourself. As it is, you put yourself at the mercy of others, with results that are simply too unpredictable.

Good luck!

cudak888 

That's my thought - and the shop isn't willing to admit it. I'd go to the shop and dig up the "trusted" mechanic to speak with him directly before anything else; see if the shop is spinning stories over the phone.

-Kurt