seypat

You're not going to put up the 7, 8, 9 or 10 comparisons are you?

genejockey 

Funny thing is, with my 10 and 11 speed bikes, I've occasionally found myself all the way in 'Biggie Bigs', because the range is so wide on a single chainring with a big cassette.

seypat

2 weekends ago I swapped out the middle 40/42 ring to a 36T as I always do for this ride. Talk about gear choices between the rings and the cassette. It got hot! I didn't go onto the granny until that short steep one around the 70 mile mark. Glad I had it after that. Really struggled to finish in the heat.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29030456

genejockey 

I think I see your problem. There's a big, pointy thing in the middle of your elevation profile.

tomato coupe

I asked a question and the answered it. There was no complaining, and no reason to re-quote it. End of story.

tomato coupe

It's not clear to me why that route can't be ridden easily with a 2x setup. What I am missing?

GhostRider62

10 Speed Mechanical is so....Y2K

Modern is electronic. Better yet would be an AP that shifts for you.

seypat

If you happen to be in that area, it's a great ride. Everything about it along the actual riding part is top notch. The race director is a hardcore cyclist. She rides other rides up and the east coast and gets feedback. I plug it as much as I can.

The race director bumped into Floyd Landis at a ride down in the Carolinas, I think. He hooked her up. Check out the swag each rider got. Sweet!

seypat

I'm sure it can. Not every rider is a 140 climber, though. I'm certainly not. About all I see there are long cage RDs and big clusters, at least from the riders that aren't 1st timers.

genejockey 

Climbing in the heat and humidity of late-spring Virginia? What's not to like?

PeteHski

Why would I want to? All I care about is less front shifting (because it sucks) and enough rear cogs to make the gaps sensible for the range I need. 2x12 works well in both those respects. Certainly better than any 3x7. As discussed with @Carbonfiberboy 3x9 or 3x10 will always offer either more range or closer gaps between gears, but at the cost of more front shifting.

Now if your priority is to minimise the number of shifts across the range regardless of whether they are front or rear shifts then I guess we have completely different priorities. As it happens I could probably shift right across the cassette under power faster and smoother than you could make 2 clunky shifts across your 3 chainrings. Rear shifting is pretty sublime on a modern 12-speed (mechanical or electronic) while front shifting is pretty much as it was 20+ years ago i.e. slow and clunky due to the inherent limitations. This is why engineers are working on feasible hub gears to replace front shifting - because they know it sucks. The other approach is a 1x which is ideal on a mountain bike, but the range and gaps remain a sticking point for road use.

When you said that 3x10 gave no real advantage over 3x9, you inadvertently stumbled across the reason why triples are now virtually extinct with 12-speed drivetrains. 2x12 is enough gears for almost everyone and most people appreciate less front shifting.

Carbonfiberboy 

Those are very good points. It hadn't occurred to me that the main use of 12-speed cassettes would be to make the total range wider rather than to make the gaps narrower. Now you're kinda riding like we used to with half-step. You mostly just shift the back. What you need now is electronic fine tuning so you hit the button and the whole drivetrain shifts itself to go up or down 1/2 step. Then you'd be getting some serious close range gearing in that 10-25 mph most-used range. Those servo RDs do slam the chain onto the next cog right quickly. Not as nicely as half-step though. I wonder if that would work.

As I said before, what I hated about the 10-speed compacts was all the endless mechanical shifting of the rear just trying to find a usable gear - and back onto my wheel they'd come. That rather put me off doubles. The big 12 speed cassettes solve that.

With the triple, to accelerate from a steep hill onto a gentle descent for instance, it's 2 shifts up in back, then one in front and two down in back simultaneously, then up through the middle ring for 7 shifts, then to the big ring and two down in back simultaneously. I just hit both shifters at the same time - it's automatic now. It's not so bad and all close jumps. Coming into a hill, I spin 100 and hit the shifter(s) every time it drops to 90 until I'm in my final gear and at my climbing cadence.

I remember when we took our tandem on our first tour, near the end of the 70 mile first day, my right wrist was toast. That's a long cable. I just wasn't in shape yet. I don't it notice anymore. My left wrist never gets tired as I do comparatively little front shifting. Riding the tandem in moderate rollers, I keep it in the big ring all the way down to the 3rd largest cog of our large cassette, then I shift to the middle if I have to. Tandems are good at converting kinetic energy into potential energy.

seypat

Finally, we have a breakthrough and can have closure. Some people like less FD shifting and more overall shifting. Some people like less overall shifting even if it means more FD shifting. Different strokes for different folks. Got it.

mstateglfr 

10sp Shimano wasn't 2003. And it was the most until '13.
Again though you are confusing the term 'modern' with the term 'leading edge.
After a response, I see you are either being intentionally obtuse to just troll or you genuinely aren't able to understand what some simple terms mean. Either way, it isnt worth continuing.

njkayaker

??? You asked after he "answered" it but ignored it (for some reason).

tomato coupe

You seem to want to start an argument out of a non-issue that has nothing to do with you. Look elsewhere.

PeteHski

I have a Shimano 11-speed double (mechanical) on one bike and SRAM 12-speed double (electronic) on my other bike. The way the cassette is spaced I use them in a slightly different way. With the Shimano I tend to stay on the big ring most of the time unless climbing something steep enough that I run out of gears at the back. Then as soon as I'm over the climb I usually go straight back onto the big ring asap. So basically only ever using the small chainring with maybe the lowest 3 or 4 cassette gears. But with the SRAM setup I tend to stay on the small ring much further down the cassette before going back onto the big ring - maybe as far down as 8 or 9 gears. If we compare the 2 setups it becomes clear why I tend to do this. The Shimano cassette has tighter gaps at the low end and wider gaps at the high end. SRAM is the complete opposite! They both work well, but it took me a little while to adjust to the SRAM gearing when I first tried it. I actually prefer the SRAM setup as I tend to make more even use of both chainrings with fewer front shifts.

https://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=...28,33&UF2=2161

I've also experimented with auto-compensating shifts on the electronic setup i.e. when shifting the front, rear auto-shifts up/down 1 or 2 cogs to reduce the gap. But it caught me out a few times when getting hard on the power before the shift was complete, making that horrible crunch! So I switched that function off, so it just makes a front shift only. Rear shifting alone is as good as instant and I have it programmed to make double rear shifts if I hold the selector down.

genejockey 

No, everyone has to do what I prefer to do. Don't complain to me, those are just the rules.

PeteHski

Yep, we can agree on this. Modern electronic drivetrains have simply made rear shifting so quick and effortless that you don't care how many rear shifts you are making. But unfortunately the front is still a bit of a let down in comparison, so better if you can avoid it more often.

tomato coupe

Yeah, front shifting is not close to rear shifting in speed and smoothness but, to be fair, it has also improved with electronic shifting.

PeteHski

I agree. But in relative terms front shifting is still night and day less efficient than rear shifting. Being pragmatic about it I am very happy with modern 2x road drivetrains (they've come a very long way since I started riding 40 something years ago), but if I was looking for a significant improvement it would be something to replace the FD and multiple chainrings. I would love to try the Classified Powershift hub for example.

njkayaker

??? That's what you did!

tomato coupe

You seem really determined to make something out of nothing. Maybe you should let it go.

GhostRider62

I am not confused, we just have different opinions.

Campy introduced 10 speed in the year 2000 or Y2K as I wrote. Shimano was not far behind.

I am not being obtuse or a troll. 10 speed is old. Not modern. Sorry if you do not like what I wrote but calling me a troll is weak.

GhostRider62

Compact cranks did not just appear with gravel and 11 speed cassettes.

I had a 46/32 on my 5 speed freewheel touring bike in the 70's and early 80's eventually putting a triple on it. I used to see compacts all the time in France and England when touring there.

Depending on the 3 ring tooth range, it can be very hard to find a FD that shifts well. On recumbent with a triple, I was shifting something like 56-44-28, and all the new little itty bitty cages could not handle that well. A big ole Shimano Deore did it just fine.