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Spoke broke again....

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Spoke broke again....

Old 06-08-22, 09:06 PM
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beng1
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Spoke broke again....

Last summer I went for a 20 mile ride on this bike and about two-miles shy of home I heard a noise and the rear brake started rubbing badly. Today I took the same bike on the same ride and just as I pulled into my driveway, which is on a steep grade, I heard a loud "twang" and the same thing happened. Not surprised as this wheel was badly out of true, out of round and had pretty rusty spokes before I cleaned it up and straightened it out, and it has gone a thousand miles or more over the last year. Hopefully I will be able to throw another spoke in this weekend and get it back on the road for another year.


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Old 06-08-22, 09:38 PM
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So...is there a question? Sounds and looks like that wheel is hammered.
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Old 06-09-22, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by cxwrench
So...is there a question? Sounds and looks like that wheel is hammered.
I have not had any questions since 1998. I just thought it was amusing and lucky to have two spokes break at the end of two identical rides on the same bike two years in a row. Here's to next summer..........
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Old 06-09-22, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1
I have not had any questions since 1998.
Originally Posted by beng1
Hopefully I will be able to throw another spoke in this weekend and get it back on the road for another year.
It's unfortunate that the question of "why am I wasting my time with a temporary and inadequate fix?" never sprang to mind.

It obviously needs more than a spoke. Get a new rim and new spokes and rebuild the thing.
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Old 06-09-22, 05:55 AM
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It is likely you will continue to break spoke after spoke based on the condition you describe.
You'll save a lot of money and aggravation by having all the spokes replaced at one time.
If you're a heavy person consider having them replaced with a larger diameter spoke. We just did a wheel with 22 gauge spokes...it should hold up but it is for a heavy person...we'll see.
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Old 06-09-22, 11:48 AM
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Spoke broke at either the nipple or the elbow. That's where spokes fatigue out. Your bike is old. The wheels are old. They don't have an infinite fatigue life.

When you reach the end of the fatigue life of a spoke it will break at one of the natural stress risers in the geometry of the spoke: elbow/head, thread. If the tension balance isn't correct or the wheel was never properly stress relieved, etc then the fatigue life of the spokes will be shortened.

All of this led to the axiom that we use in the wheel industry: break one spoke-Replace it. Break the second spoke - Replace it. Break the third and it's time to re-spoke the wheel.

We have that axiom because a spoke can have all sorts of weird one off issues that might cause it to have a lower fatigue life or simply to fail earlier (inclusions, damage, etc). But by the time it happens to 3 of them in close succession then that is a clear indication that you are at the end of the fatigue life for all the spokes and it's time to simply replace them.

While you are at it replace the rim because rims of that generation are like floppy wet noodles.
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Old 06-09-22, 01:29 PM
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If you want to break more spokes, try stress-relieving it.
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Old 06-09-22, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by beng1
I have not had any questions since 1998.
And, it shows.
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Old 06-09-22, 02:54 PM
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I think the steel rims on old ten speeds are much stronger than a lot of newer alloy rims. I think some Schwinn rims were carbon steel, I tried bending them to fit them into the trash and had to give up and cut them into pieces with a saw.

Redoing the entire wheel sounds like a nice project for next winter, for now I will just throw in another spoke so I can ride the bike in that time-trial coming up in a month.
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Old 06-09-22, 03:38 PM
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Well, to each his own.
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Old 06-09-22, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
And, it shows.
It explains a lot.
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Old 06-09-22, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
Spoke broke at either the nipple or the elbow. That's where spokes fatigue out. Your bike is old. The wheels are old. They don't have an infinite fatigue life.

When you reach the end of the fatigue life of a spoke it will break at one of the natural stress risers in the geometry of the spoke: elbow/head, thread. If the tension balance isn't correct or the wheel was never properly stress relieved, etc then the fatigue life of the spokes will be shortened.

All of this led to the axiom that we use in the wheel industry: break one spoke-Replace it. Break the second spoke - Replace it. Break the third and it's time to re-spoke the wheel.

We have that axiom because a spoke can have all sorts of weird one off issues that might cause it to have a lower fatigue life or simply to fail earlier (inclusions, damage, etc). But by the time it happens to 3 of them in close succession then that is a clear indication that you are at the end of the fatigue life for all the spokes and it's time to simply replace them.

While you are at it replace the rim because rims of that generation are like floppy wet noodles.
I didn't have that nice saying BITD but all my wheels were (or got re-spoked to) light gauge Robergel Sports. Strung, ugly galvanized spokes with little quality control. Several spokes in every box simply broke early on. Usually one or two a wheel. Once that was done, the wheels went a long ways. (This was before quality aluminum (except those very light Fiamme Ergals) and everything I rode was under 400g Rims never stayed round 'till the rest of the spokes failed.)

If I re-spoked wheels every time one broke, I'd have been doing it every 500 miles!
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Old 06-09-22, 04:52 PM
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Since I started building my own wheels over 20 years ago, I've never broken a spoke. I do 2 things: use a Park TM1 tensiometer and double-butted 14-15-14 (2.0-1.8-2.0) spokes. Double-butted spokes are much less likely to break and they put less stress on the places where they commonly break. On our tandem, I use CX-Ray spokes and also never broke one. It's my belief that heavier spokes are more likely to break, not less. When I wear out a rim with my rim brakes, I lace in a new rim using the same spokes. I'm slow, so it takes me a couple hours to do that.
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Old 06-09-22, 05:18 PM
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I am reasonably fortunate, but I'd get it respoked after one spoke breaks and it's limped home out of true. If one failed, another could be nearing its limit, and they were all overstressed in the limp home. No desire to break another.
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Old 06-09-22, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kai Winters
It is likely you will continue to break spoke after spoke based on the condition you describe.
You'll save a lot of money and aggravation by having all the spokes replaced at one time.
If you're a heavy person consider having them replaced with a larger diameter spoke. We just did a wheel with 22 gauge spokes...it should hold up but it is for a heavy person...we'll see.
Higher spoke gauge means thinner spokes, doesn't it? So 22 gauge would be really thin, right?
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Old 06-09-22, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Higher spoke gauge means thinner spokes, doesn't it? So 22 gauge would be really thin, right?
Correct. I was wrong. We used a 12 gauge spoke...2.6mm. So far no problems.
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Old 06-10-22, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Since I started building my own wheels over 20 years ago, I've never broken a spoke. I do 2 things: use a Park TM1 tensiometer and double-butted 14-15-14 (2.0-1.8-2.0) spokes. Double-butted spokes are much less likely to break and they put less stress on the places where they commonly break. On our tandem, I use CX-Ray spokes and also never broke one. It's my belief that heavier spokes are more likely to break, not less. When I wear out a rim with my rim brakes, I lace in a new rim using the same spokes. I'm slow, so it takes me a couple hours to do that.
...and this is a lot of what's wrong with the anecdotes and armchair engineering in our industry/hobby.

Spokes fail because of fatigue. Fatigue life is determined by the stress cycle that loading and un-loading a spoke goes through with it's relation to it's tensile strength.

"Double-butted spokes are much less likely to break and they put less stress on the places where they commonly break" - incorrect. Most double butted spokes that we use (2-1.8-2) made out of the stainless alloys we tend to use just happened to hit the sweet spot where the stress induced by the appropriate tension needed to build the wheel and dish it correctly places the delta of the stress cycle in just the right sweet spot to give us a great (long) fatigue life for the most susceptible spokes (non-drive side) for the weights and loading we do most commonly on bikes. The double butted spoke in and of itself doesn't do anything different with how the spokes apply a load and its resulting stress. Spokes are simple tension carrying members. The shapes are meaningless as long as they transfer the tension. The only time the shape comes into account is when the spoke is a) aerodynamic or b) in determination of it's stress which is a function of its cross-sectional area for the load it carries.

You could make square spokes if you'd like but they'd be hard to draw. This is also why we an use fiber spokes (basically a rope as spokes).

"On our tandem, I use CX-Ray spokes and also never broke one" - congrats but this is the equivalent of saying, "I use the premium rope from Home Depot and I have never had it snap...and I lift heavy things." The CX Ray has an extremely high fatigue life. One of the highest available in readily available spokes. This is because in order to create a CX Ray they take a laser and then forge/form/shape it into the oval profile of the CX Ray. This working of it is cold working that moves the grain structure enough to make it "harder". The result is a spoke with a higher tensile strength and therefore higher corresponding fatigue life. The tradeoff is that it is MUCH more brittle because of how hard it is. There's always a tradeoff. How does that show up in your wheels? if you got a stick in your wheel those CX rays is way more likely to snap than bend. The double butted spoke is more likely the bend than snap in the same scenario.

"When I wear out a rim with my rim brakes, I lace in a new rim using the same spokes. " - absolutely. I have done this as well hundreds of times over the years when customers get in wrecks or wear out a rim. BUT you must know that by continuing to use the same spokes in a new rim you haven't "reset" the fatigue life of the spokes. If they were halfway through their fatigue life they will still be halfway through their fatigue life.

Also - not that you mention this really but - not breaking a spoke is not much of any sort of accomplishment. Well built wheels almost never need a replacement spoke unless you truly have gotten to the fatigue life of them (varies by the rider and application but I know of wheels of mine that are closer to 200,000 miles than 100,000 and they have had no issues). If you end up breaking spokes "earlier" then it's the build quality, spoke material, loading and riding style. Any spoke manufacturer can have a bum spoke or two. I have even seen inclusions in spokes that would have resulted in failures regardless of build, etc.

So...spokes don't determine stiffness or durability. Spoke count and rim area moment of inertia will determine the stiffness. Lacing pattern is near meaningless as well (~1% in stiffness effect) outside of disc brakes and for considerations for flange durability (tangential is best)

I have a blog post about it on my wheel site somewhere but, yeah. Most wheel builders don't even really understand this stuff BTW.
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Old 06-10-22, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001
...and this is a lot of what's wrong with the anecdotes and armchair engineering in our industry/hobby.<snip>
I did go to Cornell for engineering, though I'm not a professional engineer. Stress and strain is what engineering is all about. You must have noticed that you have to stretch a spoke with a 1.8 section more to create the same tension vs. a straight 2.0 spoke. It takes more strain to create the same stress at the 2.0 ends than with a straight 2.0 spoke Thus the stress/strain ratio is different. Thus when a butted spoke changes length slightly in use, as the wheel goes around, the stress at the ends changes less than on an un-butted 2.0 spoke. Tell me what's wrong with this analysis.

I've noticed even if you haven't, that most broken spoke tales on BF involve un-butted spokes. By the same reasoning, butted spokes are less likely to create cracks in rims. The changes in stress are lower.

The same reasoning applies to our tandem. As long as the ends of the spokes are strong enough and the spokes are not so thin as to cause the wheel to bend laterally too much, all is well. It's my understanding that wheels which are too stiff laterally fail more quickly, same reasoning.
.
Of course I understand that re-using spokes does not extend their life! Good grief. Maybe someday I'll hit the fatigue life of one of my spokes, but I doubt it. I might mention that I extend my spoke life further by using deep section alu rims on the bikes I use the most, with 36H rims on the tandem.
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Old 06-10-22, 07:33 PM
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Anyway, took the wheel out of the bike tonight, took off the tire and freewheel and almost magically found a spoke with nipple the right length laying in my garage on one of the shelves al by itself, weird. I will true up the wheel, make sure the end of the spoke is not proud of the nipple
When I originally went over the bike I had to put a dozen or so spokes in the back wheel because they broke while trying to true it up, either from the nipple being seized on it's threads or the spoke just being rust pitted enough to snap.

While the bike is apart I have a set of much better tires I am going to throw on it, and I think I will adjust the brakes and make sure the brake arms are twisted the right way for the proper shoe contact. Then it should be ready for the time-trial next month.
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Old 06-10-22, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
...I'm slow, so it takes me a couple hours to do that.
Ha... Took me a day and a half just to change out spokes. If your slow that makes me??? Well I don't know what...

But really it has been worth it. I never really considered building my own wheels until recently as the prices have gone up so high. Normally I just get some machine built wheels then loosen them all up and true them down again. Recently I have had to re-lace two good condition Wheel Master wheels due to the spokes not holding up.

The OP looks like he is showing steel rim wheels and getting another used wheel set should not be a hard problem. I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...

Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...
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Old 06-10-22, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by zandoval
Ha... Took me a day and a half just to change out spokes. If your slow that makes me??? Well I don't know what...

But really it has been worth it. I never really considered building my own wheels until recently as the prices have gone up so high. Normally I just get some machine built wheels then loosen them all up and true them down again. Recently I have had to re-lace two good condition Wheel Master wheels due to the spokes not holding up.

The OP looks like he is showing steel rim wheels and getting another used wheel set should not be a hard problem. I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...

Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...
It's easier to change out a rim than to replace spokes. I tape the rims together and move one spoke at a time, old hole, new hole. The lacing takes care of itself, no thinking required. And I have the specialized tools, which helps enormously. Interestingly, I find using CX-Ray spokes quicker because no wind-up - one holds the flat spoke with a special tool. Thus no futzing around stress relieving. I give the spokes a preliminary tighten and throw the wheel on the bike - don't need a truing stand, just use my rim brakes. Another good reason to use them. For a little while I had someone else do my wheel work - a Vietnam vet who'd opened a bike shop, I think as therapy. He only had a $25 build charge, so 30 minutes? I'd check his work with my tensiometer, always at least as good as I could do. He killed himself though, I hope not over any of my wheels. I miss him.
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Old 06-10-22, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by beng1
When I originally went over the bike I had to put a dozen or so spokes in the back wheel because they broke while trying to true it up, either from the nipple being seized on it's threads or the spoke just being rust pitted enough to snap.
Doesn't that make you concerned that the other two dozen you left in are on the brink of failure and could easily cause a catastrophic mess should more than one or two snap at the same time?
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Old 06-11-22, 08:26 AM
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Yeah, dead wheels just aren't worth it. OTOH, you have the hubs. All you need is spokes, rims, and a TM1. You'll be very happy you did the build, like for years.
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Old 06-11-22, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight
Doesn't that make you concerned that the other two dozen you left in are on the brink of failure and could easily cause a catastrophic mess should more than one or two snap at the same time?
No.
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Old 06-11-22, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zandoval
I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...
My old man was a dealer/racer of British motorcycles in the 50s/early 60s so I grew up working on two-wheelers and anything else mechanical. I was lacing up motorcycle wheels forty or so years ago and there is no difference between a bicycle wheel and a motorcycle wheel except one is heavier. For me paying anyone to do anything was never economically sensible even if I had the money to pay them, I would rather save the fifty to 100 bucks and hour other charge and just do it myself. Lots of independent bike shops in my area still despite WalMart and a corporate bicycle chain coming in. The corporate storefronts sell junk, nothing that can compare to even a low-end 1970's bicycle. I laced some nicer rims onto this 650cc Norton several years ago, I need to get it out this year, it get's 70mpg easy on the highway;
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