Jeff Neese

Perhaps there are individuals, but as a whole retrogrouches don't tell people they're wrong or call newer bikes garbage. We just like to point out that TDF winners average speed hasn't significantly changed since about the mid-90s, despite all the new high-tech and high-dollar equipment the sponsors are making them ride.

Lombard

Beng1 is also over on RBR as Benjamin Huffy. Interesting that he has never revealed on BF what he rides. Not that there is anything wrong with older budget bikes if that's what makes you happy and they suit you. While I don't go chasing the latest tech, I don't denigrate those that do either. It appears some just come here to bash high end equipment.

terrymorse 

No conclusion can be drawn from that observation. The TDF course changes every year. Team tactics change from stage to stage.

base2 

It's not like I'm a weight-weenie or anything like that but, why would I want to carry around a bunch of extra weight?

Why would I want to be slower &/or make the task at hand less efficient, harder?

Why would I want shifting that is less refined & requires more maintenance or attention?

Pursuant to the questions above: I only own 2 indexed derailleur only bikes. The other 5 are some flavor of IGH or IGH/hybrid or friction shift.

Just so you know, I kick-a$$on all of them...and it's not about being one of them "racer boyz" It's about efficiency, quality engineering, long term reliability, lower maintenance work load. That all coincidentally happens to make life and the activity at hand easier. There is no substitute for nice tools & having the right tool for the job,

I can make a Tourney TX system on a bike with stamped sheet metal brakes sing like a nightingale. It's that skill that powers my business. That POS is still garbage & the daily inflow of recreational or utility cycling customers with broken garbage is what keeps food on my table.

Maybe you can't tell the difference? I really don't understand why appreciating nice things & others being skilled at a particular activity after much application of effort triggers you so.

Do you get mad at dry-wallers? How about painters? Cabinet makers or craftsmen? Do you rail against bar band guitarists owning a Gibson & a tube amp? 'Cause we all know Spanish guitar is way better than than all those enjoying playing traditional acoustic & those weirdos with Tacoma Thunderhawks just are a special class of player throwing their money away, muckin' up the scene! amirite?

Your proclamation contains nothing new.

Daniel4

I don't read cycling magazines anymore because of what you described. All the marketing is towards speed and performance when people like me just want a practical way to get around.

That kind of marketing reminds me of car marketing showing families driving through the city center core with no traffic congestion or being able to park right in front of your destination. Romantic for the suckers but unrealistic.

jfouellette

Correct, the North American bicycle marketing is targeted at performance and speed. Ironically, it’s the same for cars and SUV’s. Really the potential for speed or performance sell’s more then reality.

Jeff Neese

Respectfully disagree. I'm not talking about finish times, I'm talking about average speed across all stages, measured over nearly three decades of "improvements" to the bikes. We absolutely can draw a conclusion from that.

The marketing of bicycles is no different than any other consumer product. The goal is to make you dissatisfied with what you have, and then sell you on the idea that the new products are "better". You need more gears! Our new and improved model has just that - more gears! Oh wait, we have this new thing called 1x drivetrains. You need fewer gears!

Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with people buying a new bicycle with the latest technology or features, just because they want it. That's part of the fun and I would be the last person to tell someone they're wrong. I buy stuff all the time just because I want it and can afford it, even if there are no real advantages to what I have now. I think you can say that about a lot of hobbies.

terrymorse 

No, you really can't draw any conclusions from the overall average TDF speed. There are too many "confounding variables".

genejockey 

Oh, this old wheeze. If only it weren't for the sponsors making them ride superbikes, they'd all be on 22# lugged steel with single pivot brakes and DT shifters!

Sure, Jan.

genejockey 

Like for example they ride a different route every year. Now, you COULD make an argument for comparing winning times on identical stages, or segments, but even there, there's a difference between an HC climb in the middle of a stage and the same HC climb with a mountaintop stage finish.

PeteHski

Not really, manufacturers also market bikes to commuters and leisure cyclists too. It's only the race/performance bikes that are marketed for speed/performance.

"Trek hybrid bikes are versatile, easy-riding bikes that will carry you wherever you want to go"

Jeff Neese

I don't know about that, exactly. What were they riding in the mid 90s, when bike technology seems to have plateaued? They certainly weren't 22 pounds, and DT shifters had given way to STI. Even when carbon was introduced, it didn't seem to make a difference to the professional riders, at least not with regard to speed.

And sure, sponsors do make riders use what they want to sell to consumers. Why do you think they sponsor teams to begin with? In some cases (like disk brakes) the riders actively resisted the newer tech, but to no avail. This is what we're marketing, and this is what you'll ride.

genejockey 

I think it's also a mistake to think consumers have no agency and are simply slaves to marketing. If that were so, Edsel would have become a thriving brand and New Coke would still be around. Sure, halo products help get people in the door, but then they generally buy more mundane products. Hybrid bikes are the best sellers, while Road bikes are the smallest segment, so it's not like everyone's showing up at the stores demanding high end racing bikes.

Richard Cranium

I always thought that cycling was about "balance." I have no idea what Internet Forums are about.


.

genejockey 

It was only in the mid-90s that a non-steel bike won the TdF. Ergopower brifters were only introduced in 1992. Bikes had 8 speeds, not reaching 9 till 1997. Most of the bikes would still have been around 20#.

And again, the claim that bike technology plateaued is problematic.

Jeff Neese

This particular one is about killing time until the weather clears. If we can't ride them, we can at least argue over them.

Fahrenheit531 

As "milestone" posts go (your 3000th) that was pretty dang good.

mschwett 

and yet i could walk into a bike store right now and buy a steel bike, an aluminum bike, a carbon bike, a bike with a mechanical derailleur on trigger shifters, or brifters, or electronic shifting, or an IGH with a belt, o4 a singlespeed, even a fixie, with prices from $500 to $15000. carbon rims with tubes, or no tubes, or aluminum rims, suspensions or not, motors or not.

the amount of variety for what are “just a hobby” for so many is shocking. anything that there’s profit in, people will make and sell. if, on the other hand, something is relatively expensive to produce in small quantities and the only people who want it spend more time arguing about it on the internet than actually buying it, and would probably complain that it’s too expensive anyway … then yeah, that thing is hard to buy/find.

terrymorse 

And even on an identical stage, the time depends heavily on whether a team (or multiple teams) go to the front and establish a fast pace in the flat sections.

tomato coupe

Or, you could look at the spring classics ...

Quote:

Why has WorldTour racing gotten so fast? An investigation.

Racing now is faster than ever. So how does a cleaner peloton outperform the dark days of the 90s?

https://www.cyclingtips.com/2022/06/...investigation/

tomato coupe

ftfy

big john

I'm not denigrating retrogrouches. It was just an example of how someone can enjoy their connection with bicycling without telling those who aren't the same that they are wrong.

I could have used racers, tourists, recumbent riders, mountain bikers, whatever. We've seen it many times. Someone says there is something wrong with those who don't agree with them. That was my point, not that retrogrouches are guilty of this more than anyone else.

genejockey 

Sometimes these discussions remind me of something my sister said about several cars she and her husband had owned - "Why don't they make them anymore? If they did, we'd buy one!" She said that about the 1974 Dodge Dart her FIL gave them when they got married, and which they owned for probably another 5 years after receiving it in 1978, and similarly about Dodge Lancer that replaced it and which they kept for a number of years after.

The answer is obvious - you can build a niche business around selling nostalgia and retrogrouchness, but you can't build an industry around it.

shelbyfv

You can get free Strava on your phone and easily compare your performance.

big john

First, I think this is wrong. But it's mostly meaningless because the TDF is not a 2000 mile TT. The riders are not racing as fast as they can for the whole race.