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Immersive waxing / it should be more popular

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Immersive waxing / it should be more popular

Old 09-24-22, 10:27 AM
  #476  
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Originally Posted by yaw
I've never heard of wiping the chain when pulling it out, when the wax is sufficiently hot (90C+) it would only leave a sliver of coating anyway. It sounds like it could perhaps be a worthwhile extra step for indoor use to minimise flakes, but I don't think it is worth the hassle for outdoor riding.

Interesting with the magnet, do you think these are mainly chainring shavings that get flushed out? I'll give that a go as I think the molybdenum in the MSW is not going to stick to the magnet, so that could be a great periodic step to remove shavings from the wax!
no idea if the metal is from the cogs or chain, but it’s a black fine powder for the most part

you need a fairly strong magnet
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Old 09-24-22, 11:38 AM
  #477  
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Originally Posted by Symox
no idea if the metal is from the cogs or chain, but it’s a black fine powder for the most part

you need a fairly strong magnet
This is a brilliant idea, except I will apply it to the odorless mineral spirits (OMS) rather than the wax; I usually put my chain through two baths of OMS before I wax it.

I always thought that the fine black powder was road debris and factory grease residue.
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Old 09-24-22, 11:50 AM
  #478  
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Originally Posted by yaw
I've never heard of wiping the chain when pulling it out, when the wax is sufficiently hot (90C+) it would only leave a sliver of coating anyway. It sounds like it could perhaps be a worthwhile extra step for indoor use to minimise flakes, but I don't think it is worth the hassle for outdoor riding.
When I first started to wax, I observed (here in BF) that the RD shifting is hesitant during the first few miles after a fresh wax. I was told (by a more experienced waxer) to give both sides of the chain a quick wipe right after pulling it from the Crock Pot (when it is still on the hanger) to minimize the wax buildup on the outer link plates of the chain. Sure enough, adding the quick wipe step minimizes any RD shift hesitance (at least for me).
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Old 09-24-22, 02:48 PM
  #479  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
This is a brilliant idea, except I will apply it to the odorless mineral spirits (OMS) rather than the wax; I usually put my chain through two baths of OMS before I wax it.

I always thought that the fine black powder was road debris and factory grease residue.
I actually do it there as well but only after the initial mineral spirit soak as I don’t recycle that batch ( it stays cloudy from the packing grease)
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Old 09-24-22, 08:30 PM
  #480  
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Originally Posted by yaw
Given the lifetime of a chain I think it's worth going to the effort of a few spirit shake ups and final alcohol rinse to get any residue off.

It's going to be a long time before I have to go down that path again but this is the method I would use next time:
- 10-20 minutes initial soak in mineral turps (aka white spirits in the US), then shake and pour out
- Then add new mineral turps and shake it up in a sealed container, for as many times as needed to make it run perfectly clear
- Flush it with boiling water to get most of the solvents off
- Final isopropyl alcohol shake up and then hang to evaporate completely (or finish it with a hair dryer, if impatient)

There's no mistaking the bone dry feeling after the alcohol flies away.

There was this one time when I asked a bike shop to fully strip a new chain and despite the ultrasonic and soaking it in degreaser (granted, bio degreaser, probably not the strongest stuff) it was still tacky to the touch on the outside, so when I shook it up in solvents at home it still got all cloudy. Better to be thorough and have it absolutely stripped so the wax can adhere and work to its full effect.
too complicated for me. i use only mineral spirits. two jars, one is a pre clean, the other a final. from this thread you should be able to tell the difference:

https://www.bikeforums.net/general-c...ng-chains.html

personally i see o reason to pour out the chemicals, they can be used over and over until they just don;t work any more. i also know i can decant or filter out the jars but why, then i have that crap to clean up. my own way is pretty darn clean and quick. i'll share if anyone cares to know.
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Old 10-02-22, 12:27 AM
  #481  
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I used a magnet and laces to sweep around in 6 week old MSW (supported approx. 1500km of riding across 3 chains) and the first sweep showed these metal shavings on both sides.

Good to see this stuff flushed out of the chain and it seems like a worthwhile step to periodically decontaminate the wax to make a batch run cleaner for longer.


Last edited by yaw; 10-02-22 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 10-02-22, 03:54 AM
  #482  
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Is there a lucrative business opportunity here, selling bike scented candles to 41ers?
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Old 10-02-22, 05:52 PM
  #483  
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I usually just warm the hardened pot of wax enough to plop the wax out and with a serrated knife cut off the bottom 1/2" then add more candles as needed. I figure the heavy stuff like grit and metal all sinks to the bottom before the wax hardens. A magnet won't gather the grit.
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Old 10-03-22, 04:08 PM
  #484  
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Originally Posted by SpedFast
I usually just warm the hardened pot of wax enough to plop the wax out and with a serrated knife cut off the bottom 1/2" then add more candles as needed. I figure the heavy stuff like grit and metal all sinks to the bottom before the wax hardens. A magnet won't gather the grit.
Commercial blends like MSW and Silca have a bunch of low friction additives that you would lose as these also settle at the bottom.
So when using these it is best to ensure the chain that goes in is as free as possible of superficial grit (microfibre cloth or cloth plus a few sprays of iso to wipe the chain externally before immersing it). Even so not much comes off riding in mostly dry conditions. To extend the life of the wax one could still shave off the bottom at some stage but I prefer to have all the friction goodies and will rather start over with fresh wax at that point. Pulling out the metal shavings is probably as far as I will go.

If I was just using some straight wax base then I would put a shallow steam tray in the pot to keep the chain off the bottom and with no need to stir up the wax you'd be immersing in the clean upper layer.

How do candles work for you? Have you ever compared it to other bases or specific chain wax? I keep hearing that candles are the worst option, but I am sure there's significant differences in mineral oil content there and some could work better than others.
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Old 10-03-22, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by yaw
Commercial blends like MSW and Silca have a bunch of low friction additives that you would lose as these also settle at the bottom.
So when using these it is best to ensure the chain that goes in is as free as possible of superficial grit (microfibre cloth or cloth plus a few sprays of iso to wipe the chain externally before immersing it). Even so not much comes off riding in mostly dry conditions. To extend the life of the wax one could still shave off the bottom at some stage but I prefer to have all the friction goodies and will rather start over with fresh wax at that point. Pulling out the metal shavings is probably as far as I will go.

If I was just using some straight wax base then I would put a shallow steam tray in the pot to keep the chain off the bottom and with no need to stir up the wax you'd be immersing in the clean upper layer.

How do candles work for you? Have you ever compared it to other bases or specific chain wax? I keep hearing that candles are the worst option, but I am sure there's significant differences in mineral oil content there and some could work better than others.
If all the ladies in the neighborhood were to stop donating scented candles to me I might try a commercial chain wax. But with the scent that comes off the wax when I'm over in the normally "locker room smell" rec room where I do my chain servicing, everyone seems to appreciate the fragrance. Unfortunately, I'm exposed to lots of rainy mist here and I ride daily, so I'm swapping chains every couple of weeks no matter what I use. At least waxing is a relatively clean process compared to most oil types that I've tried in the past.
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Old 11-27-22, 11:24 AM
  #486  
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Opinions after running a season with five bikes using Molten Speed immersion wax. Context: I use KMC chains with YBN quick links. I used primarily RNR Gold previously.

Good:
Waxed drivetrains stay spotless and never need degreasing again.
The waxing process is far easier than people think. I degreased new chains in (cleaned out and fully degreased) old peanut butter jars using a few washes in odorless mineral spirits and isopropyl alcohol, that's easy and fast. After that, taking off the chain and rewaxing it is no harder than having to clean and relube a wet lube chain. It's also kind of a fun process and gives you a chance to service your bike with the chain off which makes several tasks a bit easier.

Bad:
Rust. I've found that waxing is terrible at preventing corrosion. I ride hard and sweat a lot. I also occasionally ride in damp, drizzly conditions. I am a fastidious maintainer of my bikes, and try to get all of the sweat off my bikes and drivetrains after every ride. Still, every single waxed chain I've used has rusted fairly quickly. I have been using KMC chains for many years and have never had an issue with chains rusting before when using traditional lubes. Frankly, this is a deal killer on the road.
Frequent rewaxing is necessary. In my experience, chains start to get loud after only 175-200 miles. I have weeks where I ride 250 miles so this is a little annoying. Using drip-on wax emulsion lubes like UFO or Silca Super Secret is an easy and effective way to extend this time.

Verdict:
I like waxing on my gravel bikes and mountain bikes as I ride a lot in very dusty conditions that cause a lot of wear to the drivetrains with wet lubes. I guess I need to find a new chain that's less prone to rust for those uses. I'm less sold on waxing for road use and I've gone back to using modern wet lubes like Silca Synergetic on my road bikes. That stuff is utterly fantastic.

Last edited by Hiro11; 11-27-22 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 11-27-22, 04:41 PM
  #487  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11
Opinions after running a season with five bikes using Molten Speed immersion wax. Context: I use KMC chains with YBN quick links. I used primarily RNR Gold previously.

Good:
Waxed drivetrains stay spotless and never need degreasing again.
The waxing process is far easier than people think. I degreased new chains in (cleaned out and fully degreased) old peanut butter jars using a few washes in odorless mineral spirits and isopropyl alcohol, that's easy and fast. After that, taking off the chain and rewaxing it is no harder than having to clean and relube a wet lube chain. It's also kind of a fun process and gives you a chance to service your bike with the chain off which makes several tasks a bit easier.

Bad:
Rust. I've found that waxing is terrible at preventing corrosion. I ride hard and sweat a lot. I also occasionally ride in damp, drizzly conditions. I am a fastidious maintainer of my bikes, and try to get all of the sweat off my bikes and drivetrains after every ride. Still, every single waxed chain I've used has rusted fairly quickly. I have been using KMC chains for many years and have never had an issue with chains rusting before when using traditional lubes. Frankly, this is a deal killer on the road.
Frequent rewaxing is necessary. In my experience, chains start to get loud after only 175-200 miles. I have weeks where I ride 250 miles so this is a little annoying. Using drip-on wax emulsion lubes like UFO or Silca Super Secret is an easy and effective way to extend this time.

Verdict:
I like waxing on my gravel bikes and mountain bikes as I ride a lot in very dusty conditions that cause a lot of wear to the drivetrains with wet lubes. I guess I need to find a new chain that's less prone to rust for those uses. I'm less sold on waxing for road use and I've gone back to using modern wet lubes like Silca Synergetic on my road bikes. That stuff is utterly fantastic.
Good info>
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Old 11-27-22, 08:05 PM
  #488  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11
Rust. I've found that waxing is terrible at preventing corrosion.
Yeah no way around this, if you get the chains wet then a boiling water flush and immediate re-wax is the way, or coating it in drip on wax if you need to store it until you can get to it, and then do the boiling water flush before the next wax dip. I now have 5 chains rotating on 2 bikes so it works for me that way, though I stay out of the wet mostly.
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Old 11-27-22, 11:27 PM
  #489  
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Originally Posted by yaw
Yeah no way around this, if you get the chains wet then a boiling water flush and immediate re-wax is the way, or coating it in drip on wax if you need to store it until you can get to it, and then do the boiling water flush before the next wax dip. I now have 5 chains rotating on 2 bikes so it works for me that way, though I stay out of the wet mostly.
Why boiling water instead of odorless mineral spirits ("OMS") or just re-wax? OMS dissolves paraffin, whereas introducing more water might worsen the rust.
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Old 11-28-22, 06:39 AM
  #490  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
You should wax everything except the saddle and the bars.
I wax my Brooks I like it smoove.

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Old 11-28-22, 05:03 PM
  #491  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
Why boiling water instead of odorless mineral spirits ("OMS") or just re-wax? OMS dissolves paraffin, whereas introducing more water might worsen the rust.
OMS leaves a minor oil residue that some claim will inhibit wax retention, I haven't found any difference, but the recommendation is boiling water or denatured alcohol/rubbing alcohol as a last rinse prior to waxing. You don;t have to dry you can just drop directly in the warm wax and it will boil off
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Old 11-28-22, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97
OMS leaves a minor oil residue that some claim will inhibit wax retention, I haven't found any difference, ...
OMS does leave a slight residual film but (like you) I have not found that it affects wax adhesion. Paraffin is soluble in OMS, and thus OMS should also be soluble in molten paraffin.

Originally Posted by redlude97
... but the recommendation is boiling water or denatured alcohol/rubbing alcohol as a last rinse prior to waxing.
That does not make sense to me. A solvent that is similar to but more volatile than OMS (e.g., naphtha) makes more sense as a final rinse, but only in terms of evaporation, not safety.

Originally Posted by redlude97
You don;t have to dry you can just drop directly in the warm wax and it will boil off
Theoretically, any residual OMS should also dissolve into (and slightly dilute) the molten paraffin.
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Old 11-28-22, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
That does not make sense to me. A solvent that is similar to but more volatile than OMS (e.g., naphtha) makes more sense as a final rinse, but only in terms of evaporation, not safety.
sure, another common one recommended is acetone. But denatured alcohol and rubbing alcohol are cheap and readily available.
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Old 11-29-22, 08:14 PM
  #494  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
Why boiling water instead of odorless mineral spirits ("OMS") or just re-wax? OMS dissolves paraffin, whereas introducing more water might worsen the rust.
Ah this was not about salvaging an already rusted chain but as a procedure when taking a wet chain off the bike [to clean it without solvents and prevent rust].

When taking a dry chain off, I just wipe it with a microfibre and chuck it in the wax pot, but since a wet chain attracts all sorts of road spray, it's good practice to just rinse it with boiled water first to take all the superficial contamination off, and then dry it or chuck it into the pot directly. Just to keep the wax pot cleaner.

If it's already rusted then solvents and a stiff brush are probably required, but I've never gotten to that point. I would certainly do what I can to avoid having to use solvents beyond first time prep.

Last edited by yaw; 11-29-22 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 11-30-22, 10:39 AM
  #495  
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Originally Posted by yaw
Yeah no way around this, if you get the chains wet then a boiling water flush and immediate re-wax is the way, or coating it in drip on wax if you need to store it until you can get to it, and then do the boiling water flush before the next wax dip. I now have 5 chains rotating on 2 bikes so it works for me that way, though I stay out of the wet mostly.
I've never understood the reason to pour boiling water on the chain and then immediately put it in the wax bath. It seems to me there's a good chance of water wicking between the plates and into the pins. Since wax is hydrophobic I would think it would not flush any trapped water and the water would keep the wax from flowing into the exact places you want it. Just a though, no testing on my part.
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Old 11-30-22, 10:46 AM
  #496  
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Originally Posted by MidTNBrad
I've never understood the reason to pour boiling water on the chain and then immediately put it in the wax bath. It seems to me there's a good chance of water wicking between the plates and into the pins. Since wax is hydrophobic I would think it would not flush any trapped water and the water would keep the wax from flowing into the exact places you want it. Just a though, no testing on my part.
I have to agree with you on this. My chains may be dirty when I throw them in the wax, but I always make sure they're dry from water and oils. When my wax gets dirty (most sifts down to the bottom) I warm the pot enough to pull the wax out in a chunk and just slice off the dirty bottom and throw the rest back into the pot after cleaning out the pot. Most of the grit is in the first stuff to melt at the bottom.
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Old 11-30-22, 11:12 AM
  #497  
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Originally Posted by MidTNBrad
I've never understood the reason to pour boiling water on the chain and then immediately put it in the wax bath. It seems to me there's a good chance of water wicking between the plates and into the pins. Since wax is hydrophobic I would think it would not flush any trapped water and the water would keep the wax from flowing into the exact places you want it. Just a though, no testing on my part.
I agree. If one uses water (hot or boiling, with or without a detergent) to clean the chain, then one must put it in the oven (< 250 F) to bake off any water residue, leading to looks of concern from one's spouse.
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Old 11-30-22, 01:07 PM
  #498  
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Originally Posted by MidTNBrad
I've never understood the reason to pour boiling water on the chain and then immediately put it in the wax bath. It seems to me there's a good chance of water wicking between the plates and into the pins. Since wax is hydrophobic I would think it would not flush any trapped water and the water would keep the wax from flowing into the exact places you want it. Just a though, no testing on my part.
Nope the water just boils off, the wax is generally above 200F
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Old 11-30-22, 06:12 PM
  #499  
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Originally Posted by yaw
Yeah no way around this, if you get the chains wet then a boiling water flush and immediate re-wax is the way, or coating it in drip on wax if you need to store it until you can get to it, and then do the boiling water flush before the next wax dip. I now have 5 chains rotating on 2 bikes so it works for me that way, though I stay out of the wet mostly.
Are all y'all chains stainless steel or not? Still a rust problem?
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Old 11-30-22, 08:39 PM
  #500  
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The longer this thread goes, the more apparent it becomes why chain waxing isn't more popular.
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