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Speedplay slash and burn by Wahoo

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Speedplay slash and burn by Wahoo

Old 11-15-20, 02:53 PM
  #51  
bahula03
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Even if they were interested in doing "one last run" of X cleats, those plans likely would've gone out the window with the pandemic. If much bigger companies with products that have much stronger demand are having trouble getting stuff made and delivered, how is Speedplay supposed to navigate that?

I also have trouble seeing them selling the designs, especially the X, to third parties because of the extreme similarity to the Zero, and for anyone who might have interest in producing X cleats (nevermind the whole pedal) the math of consumer demand vs cost to get production going is probably a nonstarter.
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Old 11-15-20, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bahula03 View Post
I also have trouble seeing them selling the designs, especially the X, to third parties because of the extreme similarity to the Zero, and for anyone who might have interest in producing X cleats (nevermind the whole pedal) the math of consumer demand vs cost to get production going is probably a nonstarter.
These are far from complicated devices. I can't see Wahoo selling the designs, not because of similarity to the Zero, but simply because any company with a small semblance of having an engineering department could dissect and just create their own 'lollipop' pedal and sell it. The X series came out over 25 years ago; patent protection has to be kaput, right? With the Zero selling for over $200, I can't imagine it would be too hard to make a go of it with a decent margin.
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Old 11-15-20, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
With the Zero selling for over $200, I can't imagine it would be too hard to make a go of it with a decent margin.
a) Zeros start under $150
b) it's not easy to get anything to market with decent margin
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Old 11-15-20, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Continuing to produce a EOL product for five years is an utter non-starter for almost any situation. That gets away from the goal of making it EOL in the first place.

I do suspect they'll continue to supply dumb pedals - you don't need PM pedals on your KICKR Bike, afterall.
Not produce, inventory from a single run.

and itís only cleats for 5 years not the whole product line. Think about if you spent $200 on a pair of pedals one day before Wahoo obsoleted everything. Obviously thatís terrible for the brand. But being able to get cleats would be fair. Since pedals are no longer being produced then after a few years cleat sales would also tail off.

Thatís a pretty normal approach .... apparently unless youíre Wahoo.

and on bare pedals - sure you want to bet on that? Thatís all it would be is a bet right now. Wahoo has already shown they donít care what happens to customers in general and Speedplay customers in particular.
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Old 11-15-20, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
Not produce, inventory from a single run.

and itís only cleats for 5 years not the whole product line. Think about if you spent $200 on a pair of pedals one day before Wahoo obsoleted everything. Obviously thatís terrible for the brand. But being able to get cleats would be fair. Since pedals are no longer being produced then after a few years cleat sales would also tail off.

Thatís a pretty normal approach .... apparently unless youíre Wahoo.

and on bare pedals - sure you want to bet on that? Thatís all it would be is a bet right now. Wahoo has already shown they donít care what happens to customers in general and Speedplay customers in particular.
You're also betting, but you're assuming you're right and expecting everyone else to agree.

And people buy soon-to-be-EOLed products all the damn time. It's... a risk, I guess? Research the product you're buying or deal with that risk. However, I hazard to guess that almost no one got into cycling and accidentally bought an X because it's what was on the shelf at the LBS. That's the $60 Keos.

Want to go ahead and point out a few companies that provide parts for five years after EOLing a product? You seem to think it's normal, so that should be easy for you. Consumer goods with a total lifespan of a few years and an initial price of low triple digits, and parts available new in retail channels from the manufacturer.
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Old 11-15-20, 05:46 PM
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Off into the wilds we go Particularly on the second point, WhyFi gets it right. Relevant to this conversation, the only way you'd get to a favorable margin while keeping a "low" price for the consumer with molded plastics/composites (ie the pedal body or cleat) is volume...which loops back to the demand part of the relationship I mentioned. That level of demand just doesn't seem to exist for the factory Speedplay stuff, and the demand for knock-off or clone pedals/cleats, even if it were magically 60-70% of the cost, would be less.
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Old 11-16-20, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
You're also betting, but you're assuming you're right and expecting everyone else to agree.

And people buy soon-to-be-EOLed products all the damn time. It's... a risk, I guess? Research the product you're buying or deal with that risk. However, I hazard to guess that almost no one got into cycling and accidentally bought an X because it's what was on the shelf at the LBS. That's the $60 Keos.

Want to go ahead and point out a few companies that provide parts for five years after EOLing a product? You seem to think it's normal, so that should be easy for you. Consumer goods with a total lifespan of a few years and an initial price of low triple digits, and parts available new in retail channels from the manufacturer.
well for starters how about car companies and appliance companies. There are many of both. Follow that up with lawn care and many others. Some do it for decades. Itís been standard practice in all the semiconductor companies Iíve worked for where they would close a factory but before they did they made enough parts based on current run rates to last 12-18 months. So yeah, it is quite common. Usually itís seamless and consumers never even know - kinda like you.

and specifically, Iím taking about the Syzr pedals which were their current offering. Not the X that has already been largely replaced with Zeros. Yeah, someone that bought their product one day before this would be pissed - and with good reason.

and here is another bet - this is the position you take until just that moment it happens to you.
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Old 11-17-20, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
well for starters how about car companies and appliance companies. There are many of both. Follow that up with lawn care and many others. Some do it for decades. Itís been standard practice in all the semiconductor companies Iíve worked for where they would close a factory but before they did they made enough parts based on current run rates to last 12-18 months. So yeah, it is quite common. Usually itís seamless and consumers never even know - kinda like you.

and specifically, Iím taking about the Syzr pedals which were their current offering. Not the X that has already been largely replaced with Zeros. Yeah, someone that bought their product one day before this would be pissed - and with good reason.

and here is another bet - this is the position you take until just that moment it happens to you.
Cars have a lifespan of more than few years (hopefully) so no dice - I was specifically excluding those. Appliances are hit and miss at best, and often miss in EOL situations (especially after five years).

The position I take is one I take after understanding the situation (particularly from the standpoint of software and wanting to stop supporting things like IE7 that clients still cry for). Even your semiconductor example is 12-18 months, not five freaking years like you asked for. And not in a takeover situation.

It's happened to me. Don't project your immaturity onto me.

However, this whole thing is you throwing a tantrum in a teapot, so carry on. I won't bother trying to dissuade you anymore. Rage on.
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Old 11-17-20, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
well for starters how about car companies and appliance companies. .
You could keep it to bike equipment consumables. Immediately coming to mind of course are cassettes and chainrings eg. Campy Veloce 9sp cassettes still found. Ultegra 6700 10s cassettes and chainrings still available (6800 came out in 2013?). Actually 6500-series cassettes can still be found at retailers.

Look Delta cleats are still around, though I don't know when Look discontinued this pedal.
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Old 11-17-20, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Cars have a lifespan of more than few years (hopefully) so no dice - I was specifically excluding those. Appliances are hit and miss at best, and often miss in EOL situations (especially after five years).

The position I take is one I take after understanding the situation (particularly from the standpoint of software and wanting to stop supporting things like IE7 that clients still cry for). Even your semiconductor example is 12-18 months, not five freaking years like you asked for. And not in a takeover situation.

It's happened to me. Don't project your immaturity onto me.

However, this whole thing is you throwing a tantrum in a teapot, so carry on. I won't bother trying to dissuade you anymore. Rage on.
Unbelievable. Simply incredible. 😂😂
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Old 11-17-20, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
You could keep it to bike equipment consumables. Immediately coming to mind of course are cassettes and chainrings eg. Campy Veloce 9sp cassettes still found. Ultegra 6700 10s cassettes and chainrings still available (6800 came out in 2013?). Actually 6500-series cassettes can still be found at retailers.

Look Delta cleats are still around, though I don't know when Look discontinued this pedal.
exactly. Thanks for the great examples.
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Old 11-17-20, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Look Delta cleats are still around, though I don't know when Look discontinued this pedal.
We also don't know when the Speedplay pedals in question were effectively discontinued. Admittedly, I don't have anything to back this up (besides, in the case of the X-series, an heir apparent being present for almost two decades), but my suspicion is that sales figures have been paltry for quite some time and that they haven't seen a production run in a number of years.
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Old 11-17-20, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug View Post
Appliances are hit and miss at best, and often miss in EOL situations (especially after five years).
I have bought parts for a washing machine that was 20 years old. I have bought parts for a clothes dryer that was 30 years old. Both are still alive and in use today.
I'm pretty sure neither appliance was still being marketed and sold at the time.
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Old 11-17-20, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography View Post
I have bought parts for a washing machine that was 20 years old. I have bought parts for a clothes dryer that was 30 years old. Both are still alive and in use today.
I'm pretty sure neither appliance was still being marketed and sold at the time.
Appliance parts are often used by multiple manufacturers, so while your model of machine might have been long gone, it's likely that a currently available machine was using the same part. There's also a very robust third-party appliance parts market.
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Old 11-17-20, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
You could keep it to bike equipment consumables. Immediately coming to mind of course are cassettes and chainrings eg. Campy Veloce 9sp cassettes still found. Ultegra 6700 10s cassettes and chainrings still available (6800 came out in 2013?). Actually 6500-series cassettes can still be found at retailers.

Look Delta cleats are still around, though I don't know when Look discontinued this pedal.
Look quit selling Delta pedals around the time KEOs became a thing. About a decade ago. But after that, there were tons of me-too LOOK-a-like pedals...that I'm presuming due to patents expiring LOOK didn't go after. Similar to what you see now with the SPD patent expiring there being a cottage industry of SPD look-a-likes; funny note, LOOK makes an SPD look-a-like pedal...and TBH they're very good pedals.

Of course...Delta cleats were just a simple block of plastic resin. Dirt cheap to make by the gross. And were cheap to consumers too. As opposed to Speedplay cleats that were never cheap or simple.

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Old 11-17-20, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bahula03 View Post
That level of demand just doesn't seem to exist for the factory Speedplay stuff, and the demand for knock-off or clone pedals/cleats, even if it were magically 60-70% of the cost, would be less.
Funnily enough, they already do exist, both pedals and cleats. The price is something like 25-30% of the originals.
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Old 11-17-20, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bahula03 View Post
Off into the wilds we go Particularly on the second point, WhyFi gets it right. Relevant to this conversation, the only way you'd get to a favorable margin while keeping a "low" price for the consumer with molded plastics/composites (ie the pedal body or cleat) is volume...which loops back to the demand part of the relationship I mentioned. That level of demand just doesn't seem to exist for the factory Speedplay stuff, and the demand for knock-off or clone pedals/cleats, even if it were magically 60-70% of the cost, would be less.
This is likely due to Speedplay's history of monopolistic behavior. Before they were bought out they barred any and all sales below MAP. Many storefronts chose to stop doing business with them as they got more and more strict in their distribution/sales rules. They really dug their own grave.
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Old 11-17-20, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
This is likely due to Speedplay's history of monopolistic behavior. Before they were bought out they barred any and all sales below MAP. Many storefronts chose to stop doing business with them as they got more and more strict in their distribution/sales rules. They really dug their own grave.
Setting a MAP and sticking to it isn't monopolistic behavior. Being strict with their distribution isn't monopolistic behavior. Both of these these are actually common strategies meant to protect their B&M retailers.
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Old 11-17-20, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Setting a MAP and sticking to it isn't monopolistic behavior. Being strict with their distribution isn't monopolistic behavior. Both of these these are actually common strategies meant to protect their B&M retailers.
Very true. In the USA they could demand you pagan sacrifice your first born child to Zeus as a condition of buying...and that would be legal, so long as the fine print no one ever reads mentions it.

But that is US law for you.
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Old 11-17-20, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Very true. In the USA they could demand you pagan sacrifice your first born child to Zeus as a condition of buying...and that would be legal, so long as the fine print no one ever reads mentions it.

But that is US law for you.
What does law have to do with it? I assume that it's simply a matter of staying in their good graces to ensure continued access to stock. If a shop has a bunch of their stuff on hand and decides not to carry it any more, I doubt there's anything stopping them from blowing it out.
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Old 11-17-20, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Appliance parts... a very robust third-party appliance parts market.
Which is what happens when you don't litigate them out of business.
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Old 11-18-20, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography View Post
Which is what happens when you don't litigate them out of business.
Goodness, I hope that you're being facetious.
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Old 11-18-20, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Goodness, I hope that you're being facetious.
I'm actually not. Generally speaking, "aftermarket" suppliers are allowed to make replacement parts for most things. Fram makes oil filters and air filters for Ford engines, for example, even new Ford engines which have new filter shapes and designs. Napa makes brake pads for cars with brand new Ford caliper shapes and pad thicknesses. QWP makes new body parts new Ford models that have only been on the market for 1-2 years. Ford does not litigate them out of business for making "replacement parts that fit Ford vehicles", so long as they do NOT claim to be selling "Ford OEM (branded) parts".

Speedplay on the other hand litigated (or threatened litigation which is many ways is even worse) to prevent people from selling replacement parts that would fit speedplay pedals, even parts that are clearly not covered by any patents, such as a standard bleeping ball bearings.

And I ONLY use Speedplay light action pedals on my road bikes. I like the product.

But as a business, they were bully idiots who created us VS them relationships with customers and with distributor/dealers.

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Old 11-18-20, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography View Post
I'm actually not. Generally speaking, "aftermarket" suppliers are allowed to make replacement parts for most things. Frame makes oil filters and air filters for Ford engines, for example, even new Ford engines which have new filter shapes and designs. Napa makes brake pads for cars with brand new Ford caliper shapes and pad thicknesses. QWP makes new body parts new Ford models that have only been on the market for 1-2 years. Ford does not litigate them out of business for making "replacement parts that fit Ford vehicles", so long as they do NOT claim to be selling "Ford OEM parts".

Speedplay on the other hand litigated (or threatened litigation which is many ways is even worse) to prevent people from selling replacement parts that would fit speedplay pedals, even parts that are clearly not covered by any patents, such as a standard bleeping ball bearing.

And I ONLY use Speedplay light action pedals on my road bikes. I like the product.

But as a business, they were bully idiots who created us VS them relationships with customers and with distributor/dealers.
Got it - so there'd be a robust market for completely honest, non-infringing, third-party Speedplay parts if not for the threat of/litigation keeping said parts out of the hands of the yearning masses. It's rather too bad - I bet that would have buoyed the economy through our current situation.
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Old 11-18-20, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Got it - so there'd be a robust market for completely honest, non-infringing, third-party Speedplay parts if not for the threat of/litigation keeping said parts out of the hands of the yearning masses.
Correct. In fact there WAS a growing aftermarket in bearings and spindles in various lengths and materials.

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
It's rather too bad - I bet that would have buoyed the economy through our current situation.
See you were so close... but you just couldn't help yourself but to inject an asinine straw man. Who, anywhere, said speedplay was in any way relevant to the economy?
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