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Rear Triangle Alignment 1988 Pinarello

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Rear Triangle Alignment 1988 Pinarello

Old 05-16-21, 06:29 AM
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Rear Triangle Alignment 1988 Pinarello

After too many years, a dishing tool was acquired. The subject wheel was dished as it should be. Much confidence was had in placing the wheel on the bike.

It looks like the rear triangle is off by 2mm.



This may have been a result of a couple of crashes or the bike was never aligned. I don't know. I don't think the offset was significant enough to really sense it while riding, especially if the the disk put the wheel in the center.
What are your recommendations? Dish the wheel or tweak the rear triangle? The engineer in me says to tweak the frame by locking in the DO and gently applying force to the DO leveraging near the BB and seat cluster lugs.
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Old 05-16-21, 06:50 AM
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Start by ensuring that the wheel is properly dished and true. The quickest check is to reverse the wheel in the frame drops and then take a look at how it sits. If the situation flips, then chances are good that the wheel is improperly dished. If not, then true up the wheel, ensuring that it is dished properly and repeat the above. If things are still off, then it is time to adjust the stays and align the drops.
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Old 05-16-21, 06:59 AM
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The Calvary is coming. Wait for the Calvary. If you need to keep busy while you wait, try clocking the axle to make sure its straight.
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Old 05-16-21, 08:03 AM
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Long before you try bending the frame you need to better understand what is not straight/square/right. An assumption/base line is needed somewhere and a true and dished wheel with a straight axle is the usual. It seems that the OP is saying this is what he has done.

As randyjawa said flipping the wheel around will help confirm the wheel's not the problem. Next up is determining if the main and rear triangles are on plane/centered WRT each other. Most use the "string test" to check this out. If the wheel sits a bit off at either the seat or chain stays one should be able to sight along the rim's sides and along the main triangle's tubes to see if that offness is only the stays being non symmetrical or if the dropouts hold the wheel a bit cocked.

If the wheel looks off at the stays but is in line with the main triangle then the stays are somehow the issue. It is possible for the seat stays to have a bow to then that placed the brake mounting hole off center. This and the rear triangle being not centered (the drop outs not the same distance from the main frame's center plane) are the only aspects that any bending of the frame will effect.

If the wheel is off at the stays and also is off WRT the main triangle then the drop outs are not located equally in the remaining 2 planes they need to be. A seat and/or chain stay is longer then the other. No amount of bending (other then bending the long stay so much it's effective length shortens) will fix this. being able to reposition the axle end within the drop out is the cure. Filing the long side's drop out slot allows this cocking the wheel back to being straight.

Of course before and after doing any frame aligning the drop out parallelism needs to be confirmed. The Campy "H" and Park FFG-2 tools are for this. Andy
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Old 05-16-21, 10:08 AM
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Here is the back story. The wheel that came with the bike was trued to the frame. It rode fine for many Kmiles. In the process of converting over to Campagnolo components, I found a Campy hub and strung it on the NOS rims with the same spokes, ERD was the same. I had difficulty finding the center of the wheel with my SpinDoctor truing stand so bought a dishing tool. That solved the problem of the rim being centered.
Mounted on the bike and found the offset problem.
Checked the original wheel with the dishing tool and found the original wheel with the same offset as the frame. It is not the wheel, don't need to reverse the wheel.
I am in no hurry so will try the string test. I really like the frame, hate the condition of the paint......
I also did a hanger correction but that is not part of the equation. I guess I need to make some DO alignment tools.
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Old 05-16-21, 10:39 AM
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In my experience, the problem may well not be fixable by tweaking the rear triangle. The dropouts are probably at different heights. It doesn't take much error at the dropouts to make 2mm at the rim, less than half a millimeter. The string test is okay, but you have to recognize that a lot of things could be out of alignment and you have to average out the faults to see what's really going on. It's the Heisenberg uncertainty principle of frame alignment.

The engineer in me has come to realize that frames are going to be out, especially 40 year old Italian frames. I have an alignment table and a number of frames that I would check on it if I had the energy. Mostly to see if I can figure out issues with the handling though.
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Old 05-17-21, 06:18 AM
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Could be the bike was built to 126mm rear spacing and in the process of bending it to 130 the stays were bent unevenly. The string test will tell that story. That's where I would start, along with making sure the rear dropouts are properly aligned.
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Old 05-17-21, 09:37 AM
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I had a bike that was 10mm off side to side and you couldn't tell by the wheel. It certainly showed up when I put it on the alignment table, and the string test would have caught it. Does Pinarello have vertical dropouts?
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Old 05-17-21, 11:06 AM
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Given that it appears to be off by a similar amount at the chain and seat stays, I would put it in my frame jig and pull both dropouts toward the non-drive side. If that doesn't center the rim, I would dish the rim to be centered and never think of it again.
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Old 05-17-21, 01:23 PM
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I have a Gavia TSX from around the same era. I raced the frame and had a "subtle" crash where I was ridden over, but the bicycle was pretty much undisturbed. Still, I decided to have the local framebuilder put it on his alignment table and check it out. Although I did not expect much needed to be done, he found the rear triangle off and straightened things out for me. It really didn't cost me that much and was well worth it. I am still riding that frame with Campy Ergo 8-speed. My favorite bicycle to ride.

As for the paint. Welcome to the Pinarello chipped paint/decals club.
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Old 05-18-21, 11:07 AM
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@unterhausen - The DO are more horizontal than vertical
Campagnolo first install on Flickr
@Nessism - The spacing is 129.47mm and I believe the 740x 8Vcomponents were original to the bike.
@dsaul - That would be my plan too. I found a builder (Bishop) with a table way up in Baltimore who will do it for a fee.
@gkamieneski - Bought he bike in 2014 so I have been living with the appearance for awhile! Actually, it is getting worse even with a waxing. The translucent pearlesence top coat is oxidizing. A guess it is just part of life.
I converted from 740x to Campagnolo Chorus within the last year. The 740x was DT and the Campy is Ergo powered! Great drivetrain. My De Rosa is Campy Record 10V with rebuilt Ergos. It is an inspiration to go through the 8V Ergos. I will do that when I tear it down to take to the builder.

I am a DIY kind of guy but I really feel uncomfortable trying to bend it. I don't have confidence that the main triangle can be locked down well enough. The amount of deflection during my attempts, without change, is impressive enough to give me concern. Steel is real and often very elastic!
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Old 05-18-21, 11:38 AM
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I'm glad you're getting a builder to look at it. That's a nice looking bike from what we've seen so far.
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Old 05-18-21, 11:51 AM
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Looks like you have it set up much like my Gavia with 8-speed Chorus Ergos and a very narrow block. Not sure, but that looks like a tubular wheelset as well. Raced that 12-21 block with 53/39 all over New England. Nowadays, that would be unheard of and racers would probably have 11-28 blocks in 11 or 12 speeds.

I recently started running my GL330 front and Reflex rear with the 8-speed cassette and 8-speed chain. I love how it performs and there's something special about the strength of that 8 speed chain and cogs.
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Old 05-18-21, 12:34 PM
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Get that Brooks off of there. I have a white San Marco you need. On edit: forgot Brooks are now Italian saddles.
CConversion95 by superissimo_83, on Flickr
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Old 05-18-21, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Get that Brooks off of there. I have a white San Marco you need. On edit: forgot Brooks are now Italian saddles.
LOL! Well I am sorry! My first really comfortable saddle on a 1972 Le Champion. Still have both but the frame and fork are bent (hit a car @21mph that pulled in front of me) and hanging on the wall in the garage. The saddle is still used and on a 1972ish Bottecchia Giro/Pro (Campy stuff from the Moto to convert the Bott from Giro to Pro).
I have no idea how long I could sit on that saddle. The bike came with a Flite Ti which I found was only good for about 30 miles. It is white ..... well was, now cream like. I have a white Pro in a box but.... hmmmm.
None of my Brooks (5?) were produced after the Italian acquisition.

gkamieneski I think the big sprocket is 24. The De Rosa is a 10 V with 26. A little easier on short hills.
Not tubulars on the picture (23mm). Replacement wheels are tubulars.
I find 8V is plenty. The 10V adds a smaller and larger sprocket around the 8V. I would be happy with the 26 on the 8V. I do have a 9V block but not the Ergos to go with it. Not sure if it would fit anyway.

GL330s are one of my favorite rims and I have a stock of NOS and once-used in my supply. I was introduced to them with the purchase of my Colnago back in 09. It had Mavic 501 for hubs which are amazing. Have a couple of sets of those too.
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Old 05-19-21, 07:03 PM
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Hi, I am sort of shocked by the response to your post. I don't know about the frequent posers and their experience with in regards to a frame with a drop out that was brazed in a little higher than the other. Over the years, I don't know how many frames I have built, screwed up/ seen with this exact issue. Preferably it would have been nicer if Pinerello had spotted this before chroming the frame. It might have been possible to heat the seat stay when it was only braze tacked together and pull the drop out down 1/2 mm or whatever. I just brazed a frame together a few month ago... same thing. I figured it out before painting it, so I took a file to the vertical drop out and presto, it's fixed. Sometimes I have had to put a little brass in a vertical drop out and file it down until the wheel sits properly. I bought this cheap aluminum Force bike with vertical drop outs. Wheel with perfect dish... off center. Off to the file again, now it's fine. I can tell you if the frame is somehow out of alignment (drop outs to the left or right) this is not going to center the wheel/ fix it. Unless it was in a car accident and off by a centimeters (not millimeters). I still think your best opinion is as Doug Fattic said bend the drop out down slightly, and then use some epoxy as filler so the axle has something the right height to sit on. Chrome will be intact/ wheel will sit centered.
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Old 05-19-21, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by headwind15 View Post
Hi, I am sort of shocked by the response to your post. I don't know about the frequent posers and their experience with in regards to a frame with a drop out that was brazed in a little higher than the other. Over the years, I don't know how many frames I have built, screwed up/ seen with this exact issue. Preferably it would have been nicer if Pinerello had spotted this before chroming the frame. It might have been possible to heat the seat stay when it was only braze tacked together and pull the drop out down 1/2 mm or whatever. I just brazed a frame together a few month ago... same thing. I figured it out before painting it, so I took a file to the vertical drop out and presto, it's fixed. Sometimes I have had to put a little brass in a vertical drop out and file it down until the wheel sits properly. I bought this cheap aluminum Force bike with vertical drop outs. Wheel with perfect dish... off center. Off to the file again, now it's fine. I can tell you if the frame is somehow out of alignment (drop outs to the left or right) this is not going to center the wheel/ fix it. Unless it was in a car accident and off by a centimeters (not millimeters). I still think your best opinion is as Doug Fattic said bend the drop out down slightly, and then use some epoxy as filler so the axle has something the right height to sit on. Chrome will be intact/ wheel will sit centered.

!!! This
For those of us who have built frames, and more then just one in a class setting, getting the rear drops "perfectly" located is not a simple cut and paste. I have done much the same as headwin15 describes. Andy
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Old 05-19-21, 09:17 PM
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I said it was probably the seat stay length 10 posts back.

Horizontal dropouts complicate remote diagnosis to some extent. If one seat stay is too long, you can move the wheel back on that side and it makes it a little better at the brake, but the front is off to that same side. So the pictures show what would happen if the drive side stay was too long. Possibly. There is no guarantee that the chain stays aren't catywumpus. If the NDS chainstay is shorter, then it would have a similar effect. Or a little of both, it's not off by much.

I saw a video by a well known builder who attaches the seat stays at the top, checks the alignment of the dropouts vertically and then adjusts them if necessary. On the bike I saw, he had to bend one of the chainstays down a little.
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Old 05-20-21, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I said it was probably the seat stay length 10 posts back.

Horizontal dropouts complicate remote diagnosis to some extent. If one seat stay is too long, you can move the wheel back on that side and it makes it a little better at the brake, but the front is off to that same side. So the pictures show what would happen if the drive side stay was too long. Possibly. There is no guarantee that the chain stays aren't catywumpus. If the NDS chainstay is shorter, then it would have a similar effect. Or a little of both, it's not off by much.

I saw a video by a well known builder who attaches the seat stays at the top, checks the alignment of the dropouts vertically and then adjusts them if necessary. On the bike I saw, he had to bend one of the chainstays down a little.
As I did in post #4 too. The last line of your above reply is a common method to better insure stays of equal length. Been doing that for quite a long time myself. Andy
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Old 05-24-21, 12:32 PM
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I am really confused. Probably a good thing I don't build frames!
I purchased the Park frame alignment tool. With the small number of bikes I am thinking it might be of some value. Now I don't know!

Using the gauge, it indicates that the triangle is actually skewed toward the NDS by about 2 mm or less.
I used this tool for the dishing exercise. I have checked it multiple times on multiple wheels.


I made user the blocks on the end were touching the same radial spot on both sides of the rim. The rim runs true in the truing stand with very small, <.5 mm, lateral variation.

Found two places to take the frame. One in Richmond and the other in Baltimore. Richmond is closer so I may take it there when I decide to take it apart.

Just thought of another measurement to take. Check the brake bridge! May have to use the DT and ST for the reference.

I did check the main tubes for straightness and they did not show any deviation from being straight, both top/bottom and the sides.

The only other open question is how to measure the stays? Of course the axle center is one end. What is the other?
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Old 05-24-21, 02:02 PM
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TBH, I use a properly dished wheel to measure the stays. There are centering gauges and Doug Fattic has shown how to make one not that long ago, I'll see if I can find it.
I wanted to use my Anvil brake boss fixture to do the measurement, but it's too sloppy. Which is probably good for brake bosses, but not good as a gauge.

Here is the thread I was thinking about
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...-bb-shell.html

If it was my bike I would un-dish the wheel 1mm and be happy about it.
There is no satisfactory fix.

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Old 05-26-21, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
If it was my bike I would un-dish the wheel 1mm and be happy about it.
There is no satisfactory fix.
Almost there. I will have a clincher and tubular set with the unique off set. They really can't be used on any of my other bikes because it is the only 8V in the stable. Not such a bad situation. It is a lot less effort and a lesson of acceptance!

Thanks for the reference! Cool approach!
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