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Frame identification for new member

Old 05-21-21, 05:36 AM
  #1  
GMull
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Frame identification for new member

Hi,


Just joined and understand that I need to do 10 posts before I can add pictures, so words only for now, unless I have read this wrong.


I have a road/path frame number 53## stamped on the left hand, non chainwheel side, rear dropout, with matching number on the fork tube. Dropouts are for fixed, with no makers name.


Seat tube is 27.2 and tubing seems to be Reynolds 531 as frame (23") weighs around 2.7kg including forks.


BB is Nervex Serie Legere.


Forks are quite slender, round tubing, all chrome, with double fork crown, but they are quite sturdy.


No grease nipple in BB and no sign that there ever was one, and head tube has not been drilled for either a grease point or head badge.


I had though it to be a Carpenter as the number seemed to date it around late 50s early 60s, which it certainly looks to be, but have had it confirmed by the registrar that it's not as the seat stay wrap around at the top is not quite the same and Carpenters had the number underneath the BB.


Frame angle between seat tube and top tube is 72 degrees which is stamped by the seat post bolt hole.


Wheel clearance is generous hence road/path comment and drilled for front brake only, with curved rear bracket on seat stays.


I have stripped a lot of the paint off in the obvious places, it having been painted yellow all over, including over the chrome forks and seat post bolt, which has preserved them at least, but no sign of any old decals.


Appreciate that photos would help, but thought this might be a starting point.


Cheers

Last edited by GMull; 05-23-21 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 05-21-21, 05:49 AM
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Welcome! Someone here should have an answer for you.
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Old 05-21-21, 06:25 AM
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Hard to tell without pics. Try uploading to the gallery and someone will add them to this thread. Cannot wait to see pictures!
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Old 05-21-21, 07:13 AM
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GMull, when you say the dropouts are for a fixed, do you mean they are like track dropouts with the slot pointed towards the rear? And what is the width between the inside of the dropouts?
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Old 05-21-21, 10:03 AM
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GMull
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
GMull, when you say the dropouts are for a fixed, do you mean they are like track dropouts with the slot pointed towards the rear? And what is the width between the inside of the dropouts?
Yes, track dropouts.

Spacing is 120mm and it doesn't look like it's been reset from 110mm. I have seen a number of frames advertised with 110 and not sure if there was a common date when size changed, although I understand that 110 still occurs, so may be not.

Comment about loading pics to gallery, I will have a try.
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Old 05-21-21, 10:11 AM
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Gallery is saying I am registered and the only option is to change my profile, it doesn't seem to allow me to upload pictures yet.
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Old 05-21-21, 10:22 AM
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GMull hang in there and post in some other threads and you'll be at 10 posts before you know it! Excited to see the frame. I have 2 such frames so this is right up my interest alley!
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Old 05-23-21, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Senrab62 View Post
GMull hang in there and post in some other threads and you'll be at 10 posts before you know it! Excited to see the frame. I have 2 such frames so this is right up my interest alley!
Thanks, will do.

Just bought a GB spearpoint stem and bars to go on the frame.
Wheels, whilst not period correct, are going to be Dura Ace 7500 large flange track hubs which I have laced to Araya blue label tub rims.
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Old 05-23-21, 09:31 AM
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GMull
Youre allowed 5 per day maximum, so takes two days to get to the 10 minimum. You have 1 today already. + 3 the other day so if you can add 4 more posts about your ride today then tomorrow you'll be in. It's an anti spam measure and once you have the ten your free to add all you want

Last edited by WGB; 05-23-21 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 05-23-21, 09:38 AM
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Attempting Pic Assist

Originally Posted by GMull View Post
Gallery is saying I am registered and the only option is to change my profile, it doesn't seem to allow me to upload pictures yet.
Please disregard the automated messages and attempt to upload a (drive side) photo in a reply to this post?

Humour us?
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Old 05-23-21, 11:13 AM
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GMull
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Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
Please disregard the automated messages and attempt to upload a (drive side) photo in a reply to this post?

Humour us?
I will get there yet.
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Old 05-24-21, 07:41 PM
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dont give up!
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Old 05-24-21, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GMull View Post
I have stripped a lot of the paint off in the obvious places, it having been painted yellow all over, including over the chrome forks and seat post bolt, which has preserved them at least, but no sign of any old

Cheers
How did you strip the paint? (Fishing for your tenth post...)
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Old 05-25-21, 12:04 AM
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GMull
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Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
How did you strip the paint? (Fishing for your tenth post...)
Thanks, 10 posts now up, for 11 I will sort the pictures.

I had tried some all purpose paint stripper, which got the paint off of the chrome forks, but probably only because the paint hadn't adhered so well as it hardly affected the frame. Chap at a cycle shop who specialises in vintage suggested acetone to see if I could see any decals/original paint to identify the frame but, again, this has not worked so have sanded some of it off - likely 2 pack - and no sign of any decals etc. although chap at said cycle shop did notice dark blue inside steerer tube and that is the colour I want to go for.

May need to get it sympathetically blasted or get some better paint stripper.
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Old 05-25-21, 12:09 AM
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GMull
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At last the pictures





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Old 05-25-21, 12:10 AM
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I will sort out a couple more, putting bare wheels on so you can see clearance.
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Old 05-25-21, 01:45 AM
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More pictures

I have added bare wheels to the frame so that you can see the clearance and rake of the forks.
Wheels are Araya blue label with Dura Ace 7500 track hubs from the early 80s. I had these prior to buying the frame and, whilst obviously the wrong era, look the part with the high flanges.
Brake drop at the front looks to be around 58mm.


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Old 05-25-21, 06:11 AM
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Hot! If it's to be repainted, please match the original color.
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Old 05-25-21, 08:37 AM
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Charles Wahl
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It's hot even if you paint it another color of your choice.
I have no idea who constructed it (others may be able to help), but that is one beautiful frame.
53## might indicate year 1953.

Wild guess: If the serial number were 6 digits, I might say R. O. Harrison, whose serial scheme was month (1 or 2 digits) year (1 digit) and then a 4 digit sequential build number consecutive for his whole career. Your 5347, if followed by a couple digits, would be May 1953, frame 47##, which would be plausible considering his output to that point, and that he died in 1955. He did make a lot of track frames, and he used the round upper fork blades with two-plate fork crown too. https://www.classiclightweights.co.u...madison-track/

Harrison made and profiled his own lugs right up to nearly the end, so there's a lot of variation in the ones I've seen; and he favored semi-wrap seat stay terminals (those are exceptional ones). Here's a 1950 road frame: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131757...57690482221960 now hanging on my wall waiting for a restoration; 402907, meaning April 1950, frame #2907.

Note that the "typeface" of the stamped numbers seems to be the same (4 & 7), though the orientation is obviously different. My bike's frame serial is under the BB, which is a minus for such an ID, though he may have done things differently for track bikes with a larger rear dropout area. Whatever . . . do you know the threading and width of the BB and the threading of the steerer? Might turn out to be Italian!
Whomever built it, it's obviously a treasure well worth restoring (and riding!).

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 05-25-21 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 05-25-21, 10:29 AM
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Could this be a "path" racer: made for the track but has the track fork drilled for a single brake to ride on the road to there and back (daylight only since no lamp on the fork)? Really interesting details like the headlugs and "grooved" stay-eyes, not ones I recognize (but somebody will)
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Old 05-25-21, 12:19 PM
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GMull beautiful!! Love the frame. Could I trouble you for pics front facing and rear facing to see tire clearance. I know sometimes these frames would have been specced to accommodate different wheel diameters depending on racing type.

Lovely frame and lovely details. Can't wait to see it when you are done.

Fork looks very similar in some aspects to my Claud Butler in the fork crown, but ends and treatment and rake look different.

Thanks for sharing and welcome!!
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Old 05-25-21, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GMull View Post
Brake drop at the front looks to be around 58mm.
Of course, subtract 4 mm if the bike is English and was built for 27" (630) rims rather than 700C (622).
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Old 05-25-21, 02:57 PM
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English frame, with 68mm BB and agree would have been built for 27 x 1 1/4 wheels.

Drilled for front brake, but not the cleanest of drillings, but these are matching forks re 4 digit number, but it doesn't look like a track only frame, and looks more road/path to me.

Last edited by GMull; 05-25-21 at 03:01 PM. Reason: more detail
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Old 05-25-21, 06:49 PM
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How about this: the bike was originally built as a track only frame, and the original (or later) owner decided to retrofit a brake to it. Ergo: "not the cleanest of drillings". I assume that you're aware of the Classic Lightweights UK site, https://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/. That's where I would be looking for an ID on this. Having thought about that, I imagine that you're going to reveal that you're in the UK, and that's why your first post mentions Carpenter, and discussion with "the registrar" -- more fool me.

Another thing I notice is that the steerer tube seems to be very long for the length of the head tube -- what kind of headset stack would this have? About 50 mm?

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 05-25-21 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 05-25-21, 07:51 PM
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Since the OP mentions this has Nervex Serie Legere BB shell, I looked thru VeloBase and see the head lugs may be these model Nervex, but with additional cut-outs and craftsmanship (IMO): Nervex Serie Legere Model 86bis/158. Check out the listing on VB: VeloBase.com - View Single Frame Part
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