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One x drivetrain... Hoping I made the right decision

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One x drivetrain... Hoping I made the right decision

Old 06-18-21, 07:18 PM
  #26  
Paul Barnard
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
Ok, 20 bikes...that might explain some things. Conservatively I've probably worked on 1,000 times that. What I'm saying (again) is that if everything is straight you can't be more out of adjustment in any one spot than any other. It's gonna be bad if it's out of adjustment and good if it's not. If the hanger is bent in towards the wheel (what would happen when you dropped the bike on the drive side) it could be ok in the small cogs and then get worse as you shift up to the big cogs. I would NOT be ok, get worse, then get ok again.
I just ordered a new derailleur hanger for my Lynskey Backroad. My wife's e-bike fell on it and bent it. The symptoms? Chatter in the smaller gears only. I have a bent SRAM X7 derailleur in my attic. It ran fine on all but the two smallest cogs before I removed it. It's fascinating that my experience is so different from yours.

This is the email I sent them asking which hanger I would need.

My idiot wife knocked my Lynskey Backroad over and bent the derailleur hanger. Mine is set up for quick release rather than thru axle. Which derailleur hanger do I need to order? If you know any good divorce attorneys in the New Orleans area, I'd appreciate that info too.

Thanks,
Paul
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Old 06-18-21, 07:55 PM
  #27  
Bill in VA
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
Umm, no.

A 1x system has the chain ring positioned on the nominal chain line so it more closely lines up with the center of the cassette - like the middle ring on a 3x system. This reduces the lateral angle of the chain when on the largest or smallest rear sprocket compared to the classic cross-chained state.

The problem of cross-chaining on a 2x is the chain rubbing on the FD plates and/or on the inner side of the of the large chainring when in extreme positions. Noise = wear and annoyance. A 1x eliminates this factor and as such, there is by definition, no cross chaining.

Cross chaining with traditional rings will put the chain in the angular region where it ‘thinks’ you want to shift. On a 1x system a narrow wide ring is typically used, or a similar device, that meshes more completely with the whole chain link. Since it doesn’t have to worry about shifting, it’s only worried about retention, so it can ease the chain into a consistent position from a wide variety of angles.

A traditional ring is made to allow shifting, which means there are specially shaped teeth and protrusions that will pick up the chain and help lift it in to the next gear and this is why cross chaining is an issue with 2x (or 3x) and not a 1x.
I like this. Now my 3X is in reality a new trendy 1X with 2 backups...
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Old 06-18-21, 07:57 PM
  #28  
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My mom really likes the 1x setup... she doesn't have to think about gearing... just shift.
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Old 06-18-21, 09:43 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I just ordered a new derailleur hanger for my Lynskey Backroad. My wife's e-bike fell on it and bent it. The symptoms? Chatter in the smaller gears only. I have a bent SRAM X7 derailleur in my attic. It ran fine on all but the two smallest cogs before I removed it. It's fascinating that my experience is so different from yours.

This is the email I sent them asking which hanger I would need.

My idiot wife knocked my Lynskey Backroad over and bent the derailleur hanger. Mine is set up for quick release rather than thru axle. Which derailleur hanger do I need to order? If you know any good divorce attorneys in the New Orleans area, I'd appreciate that info too.

Thanks,
Paul
While your experience is definitely your experience I think what I have seen in the last 26 years of doing this for a living might carry a tad more weight. You see what happens to your bikes. I see what happens to thousands of them...from pro team bikes to complete beaters.
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Old 06-19-21, 01:17 AM
  #30  
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I thought 1x was better about cross chaining and easier shifting etc.. not stuck between high first chain ring and low 2ng chain ring. Don't have a front derailleur that constantly needs to be shifted because of an ever so slight chain rub.
I like the look of 1x and the less weight etc..
I seem to have a narrow rpm range or just seem to prefer it. I need my 2x to maintain speed over long distance.
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Old 06-19-21, 06:29 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
While your experience is definitely your experience I think what I have seen in the last 26 years of doing this for a living might carry a tad more weight. You see what happens to your bikes. I see what happens to thousands of them...from pro team bikes to complete beaters.
With all of that experience, the OP would probably appreciate it if you tried to give him a starting place in trouble shooting, and perhaps tell him what he stands to lose by using the barrel adjuster. I appreciate your eloquence in asserting that I am wrong.
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Old 06-19-21, 06:31 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Bill in VA View Post
I like this. Now my 3X is in reality a new trendy 1X with 2 backups...
1x with low/high/overdrive
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Old 06-19-21, 07:33 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Umm, no. You will be cross-chained more in a 1X setup than in a 2X set up. But it’s nothing to worry about. Just keep an eye on chain wear.
Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
Umm, no.

A 1x system has the chain ring positioned on the nominal chain line so it more closely lines up with the center of the cassette - like the middle ring on a 3x system. This reduces the lateral angle of the chain when on the largest or smallest rear sprocket compared to the classic cross-chained state..
Been thinking more about this, and I think you are wrong -- and your statement above demonstrates why. If the chain ring on a 1x is "positioned on the nominal chain line so it more closely lines up with the center of the cassette," there will indeed, by definition, be cross-chaining (more extreme lateral angle) when at the more extreme ends of the cassette. And with only one chainring, a rider has no option to choose a different chainring to mitigate the cross-chaining.

Stating that a 1x system "reduces the lateral angle of the chain when on the largest or smallest rear sprocket compared to the classic cross-chained state" is a straw man argument, since that is NOT how a reasonably knowledgeable rider would use a 2x or 3x system; that rider would shift to a smaller chainring before getting to the big-big combo, and would shift to the bigger chainring before getting to the small-small combo.

Whether a 1x or 2x will involve more cross-chaining depends on the specific gearing (cassette and chainring(s)), the rider's terrain and cadence preferences, etc. But in my terrain (very hilly), a 1x would often have me on the extreme ends of the cassette, while a 2x allows me to get less lateral deflection of the chain.

Again, I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with a 1x -- I would happily ride one.

Last edited by Koyote; 06-19-21 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 06-19-21, 07:50 AM
  #34  
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Old 06-19-21, 08:08 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
I am not wrong,

Do some research. Start with a simple google search. Here is one I did for you: https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...d-but-1x-is-ok

Here is another: https://www.******.com/r/cycling/com..._but_1x_is_ok/


1x is no panacea. There is no best. Everything is dependent on multiple factors.
Second link doesn’t work for me, and the first is to a discussion on another forum - which is a rather cheeky way of trying to prove a point on this forum!

If “cross-chaining” means lateral deflection of the chain (as you’ve described it), you are definitely incorrect. That’s obvious. But again, it’s academic, since it’s not really a problem.
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Old 06-19-21, 08:18 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Second link doesn’t work for me, and the first is to a discussion on another forum - which is a rather cheeky way of trying to prove a point on this forum!

If “cross-chaining” means lateral deflection of the chain (as you’ve described it), you are definitely incorrect. That’s obvious. But again, it’s academic, since it’s not really a problem.
https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining/

If there is only one ring there is no smallest or biggest. There is only one. One ring to rule them all.


Cross chaining is the condition where the chain is running across the drivetrain centerline — for example: From the BIG Front chain ring to Biggest Rear cassette cogs, or from the SMALL Front chain ring to the Smallest Rear cassette cogs

Cross chaining on a 1x is a non-issue. Period.

Remember please, my argument is a rebuttal of your statement that a 1x cause GREATER cross chaining. It does not. It does just the opposite.

Thanks for the spirited discussion.


# 30.

Last edited by Cpn_Dunsel; 06-19-21 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 06-19-21, 08:24 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining/

If there is only one ring there is no smallest or biggest. There is only one. One ring to rule them all.


Cross chaining is the condition where the chain is running across the drivetrain centerline — for example: From the BIG Front chain ring to Biggest Rear cassette cogs, or from the SMALL Front chain ring to the Smallest Rear cassette cogs

Cross chaining on a 1x is a non-issue. Period.

Remember please, my argument is a rebuttal of your statement that a 1x cause GREATER cross chaining. It does not. It does just the opposite.


# 30

Can you point me to a formal definition of cross chaining? When you read his actual words with an eye toward understanding, rather than nitpicking language with an eye toward winning an internet argument, his words make sense and are spot on. I spend much more of my time on my 1X in a gear that has a greater chain angle from front to back than I do with my 2X and 3X. If I understand him correctly, that's what he's saying. Further, with a 1X I don't have the option of reducing those angles like I do on a 2X and 3X.
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Old 06-19-21, 08:33 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
https://wickwerks.com/support/crosschaining/

If there is only one ring there is no smallest or biggest. There is only one. One ring to rule them all.


Cross chaining is the condition where the chain is running across the drivetrain centerline — for example: From the BIG Front chain ring to Biggest Rear cassette cogs, or from the SMALL Front chain ring to the Smallest Rear cassette cogs

Cross chaining on a 1x is a non-issue. Period.

Remember please, my argument is a rebuttal of your statement that a 1x cause GREATER cross chaining. It does not. It does just the opposite.

Thanks for the spirited discussion.


# 30.
Ah! Yes, using the “center line“ explanation, you are, by definition, correct. But in your first post in this thread – post number four – you were talking about “lateral deflection” of the chain, and I was responding to that. (We can set aside the fact that others define “cross chaining“ as that lateral defection that you referred to.)

You’ve changed your argument now, and under those terms you are indeed correct.

Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Can you point me to a formal definition of cross chaining? When you read his actual words with an eye toward understanding, rather than nitpicking language with an eye toward winning an internet argument, his words make sense and are spot on. I spend much more of my time on my 1X in a gear that has a greater chain angle from front to back than I do with my 2X and 3X. If I understand him correctly, that's what he's saying. Further, with a 1X I don't have the option of reducing those angles like I do on a 2X and 3X.
Yes, Paul understands my point.

To the extent that cross-chaining actually causes any issues with a drive train, it has absolutely nothing to do with a theoretical “centerline,“ and everything to do with that lateral deflection of the chain.
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Old 06-19-21, 08:37 AM
  #39  
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After many decades of hearing the perils of cross chaining, I have come to the conclusion that cross chaining is a myth.

I heard about cross chaining back in the 6 speed freewheel days that were less than 30mm wide. People are running 1x11 with cassettes that are 40mm wide.

But the main reason I believe it is a myth is because no one can define the angle that must be crossed to be cross chaining. The reason is that I really don't think anyone can calculate that angle based on the exact point of engagement/disengagement of the chain in relation to chainring/cog size, and chainstay length.

It like talking to an old person who tells you that you can't do something and when pushed for a reason it ends up with "Don't try to confuse me; everyone knows that you shouldn't do that."

John
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Old 06-19-21, 08:55 AM
  #40  
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Old 06-19-21, 09:02 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
The school which awarded you an engineering degree should be returning your monies.
Ima go ride my 1x now, on some really big hills here, and cross chain my way into a better day then dealing with silliness.
Say what, my well schooled friend?
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Old 06-19-21, 09:06 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
I understand your point as well and you are 100% incorrect that a 1x causes more cross chaining. The school which awarded you an engineering degree should be returning your monies. If you do not have an engineering degree then perhaps that is why you do not understand the issue and now feel need to turn to semantics (rhetoric) to try to salvage your spurious argument.

Nice try. I accept fully that you do not understand. At all.


Ima go ride my 1x now, on some really big hills here, and cross chain my way into a better day then dealing with silliness.
In an earlier thread, you passed yourself off as an attorney...Now you seem to be implying that you have expertise in engineering. I don't know where you have found time to ride, with all the time you must have spent in graduate school!

Once more, with feeling: everyone seems to agree, for whatever reasons, that the OP's concern is a non-issue. And that is the main thing.

Now Ima go count my "monies." (I've got so much of it that I have to pluralize it.)
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Old 06-19-21, 09:41 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by waxcrazy View Post
I bought a Sirrus X5.0 with a 1x drivetrain a little bit back..I live in very hilly New England finding myself in the cross chain situation a lot for the lower gears. Just read a article on how the 1x drivetrain wears out much faster because of this...Has this been a issue for anyone or am I just worrying to worry? I'm hoping Specialized somehow accommodated for this with beefed up chainrings etc.
Thanks
This 1x is a passing fad. Personally if you live in a hilly area, you really should have a triple in front.
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Old 06-19-21, 09:52 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
This 1x is a passing fad. Personally if you live in a hilly area, you really should have a triple in front.
There was a time when I would agree with you, and I ride triple road and double mtbs, but the wider cassette range has allowed a 1x to be a viable option.

I do feel that a wide range 1x will result in similar cog gaps as those in the 80’s with doubles. That is not necessarily a bad thing as the fascination with 1t gaps for optimal performance by non-optimal riders is more of a fad.

One day being able to push gears at different cadences will be seen as a strength… and the world goes round and round.

John
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Old 06-19-21, 10:15 AM
  #45  
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The 1x is a passing fad for sure one that started when they first put chains on a bike though back then it was just a bike, they hadn't invented multiple gears yet. 1X1 has been around for a long time and will continue to be around and early on in the development of derailleurs you saw 1x2/3/4/5 in some cases and of course with internally geared hubs you have a 1x as well but yeah let's ignore the entire history of bikes to make ridiculous claims.

I am not hating on a triple they are fine for certain situations but with todays wider range cassettes you can get a good portion of gearing that would would have with a 2x or sometimes even 1x set up. Maybe missing a couple gears in between but with a lot less faff. If you really need a ton of gears, Pinion 18 with a Rohloff 14 and there you go.
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Old 06-19-21, 10:24 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
This 1x is a passing fad. Personally if you live in a hilly area, you really should have a triple in front.
“Personally” and “you should” are two very different things. Don’t apply your own needs or preferences to other people.

I know plenty of people who can outride me on their single speed bikes - when I’m on a 2x 11 speed. So I suspect that 1x is here for a while. Especially for MTBs.
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Old 06-19-21, 10:25 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
...
The biggest negative about cross chaining is chain rub on front derailleur.
Incorrect. The biggest negative is the extra friction caused by an angled chain. This results in reduced efficiency and extra wear on the drivetrain.

You can define "cross chaining" to mean the chain crossing the "drivetrain centerline" - ok, that sounds good, and by that definition a 1x can't be cross chained, but that sidesteps the important issue: the angle of the chain.

In practice a 1x system is going to have a more angled chain more often.

Last edited by tyrion; 06-19-21 at 01:43 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 06-19-21, 01:00 PM
  #48  
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So I did a quick and dirty calculation that basically took the BB center-to-center to rear axle measurement and 1/2 a cassette width. The CTC varies but around 15.5 to 16 is probably close enough. 400mm splits the difference and is a nice round number. This is pretty rudimentary and is not intended to analyze any other factors. But I wanted to know what angles are we really talking about.

For a 1x11, I used 400mm and 20mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get a roughly calculated angle of 2.86 degrees. Which is the maximum chain angle running at either end of the cassette.

For a 1x6, I used 400mm and 15mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get an angle of 2.15 degrees maximum chain angle.

Just for fun I took a 2x8 setup and cross chained it. Using 400mm and 20.2mm (1/2 cassette width of 17.7 + 2.5mm chainring adjustment) to get an angle of 2.89 degrees. This would be big-big or small-small.

Where does the cross chain "angle" become an issue? Is 2 degrees the limit? 2.5 degrees?

An obvious response is anything beyond a single speed causes theoretical wear.

I was pretty surprised that the angle we are talking about is less than a degree.

John
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Old 06-19-21, 01:22 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
This 1x is a passing fad. Personally if you live in a hilly area, you really should have a triple in front.
that’s exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesn’t make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.
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Old 06-19-21, 01:34 PM
  #50  
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Here we are nine years after XX1 came out, and we are still going on about this like it's novel
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