Law and Order and Cycling
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,384 Times
in
708 Posts
Law and Order and Cycling
Of course there are lots of threads and opinions here about the behavior of cyclists, motorists, pedestrians, etc.
I had an interesting experience today which I honestly don't know what to think about.
I was riding northbound through Sausalito, in a bike lane, going approx 20. I had a red in front of me that had just turned red, but the road to the right was just the entry to a parking lot, essentially. Honestly I didn't want to unclip so I slowed, turn right, went about 100' up the parking lot entry road, looked over my shoulder, made a u-turn, and then a right back onto the main road.
About 15 seconds later, a motorcycle officer pulled in front of me and signaled me over.
He asked if I knew why I was there, I said I wasn't sure but maybe he didn't like the u-turn? He said no, the u-turn was fine - you went far enough up the road - but you ran two red lights. He then asked where I was from (San Francisco) at which point he gave me a very long lecture about law and order. The basic theme was: in this town, we care about law and order and safety unlike in the nasty big city where the cops have too much to do and don't enforce basic laws. His entire responsibility is pulling over cyclists, because "the people of this town don't feel safe on the roads they built with their taxpayer dollars because of cyclists that don't obey the law." I listened, discussed with him briefly, and about 15 minutes later (it was a long lecture!) went along my way. He didn't cite me for anything.
So, yes, in California a bike must come to a stop before a right turn on red. I don't believe we have any version of the idaho yield. But I can't imagine a more victimless crime here. It wasn't even a full intersection, and there were zero cars coming out of the parking lot entry... and there was a bike lane on the main road so it's not like I turned out into traffic.
What does everyone think? Horrible behavior on my part to turn on red at 10mph (if that!) into and out of a parking lot access road? I mean, laws are laws. I get it. Slippery slope. But I suppose I've always believed that things like jaywalking, speeding, and incomplete stops when there are literally no vehicles nearby to be impacted are acceptable compromises between the law and expediency.
I had an interesting experience today which I honestly don't know what to think about.
I was riding northbound through Sausalito, in a bike lane, going approx 20. I had a red in front of me that had just turned red, but the road to the right was just the entry to a parking lot, essentially. Honestly I didn't want to unclip so I slowed, turn right, went about 100' up the parking lot entry road, looked over my shoulder, made a u-turn, and then a right back onto the main road.
About 15 seconds later, a motorcycle officer pulled in front of me and signaled me over.
He asked if I knew why I was there, I said I wasn't sure but maybe he didn't like the u-turn? He said no, the u-turn was fine - you went far enough up the road - but you ran two red lights. He then asked where I was from (San Francisco) at which point he gave me a very long lecture about law and order. The basic theme was: in this town, we care about law and order and safety unlike in the nasty big city where the cops have too much to do and don't enforce basic laws. His entire responsibility is pulling over cyclists, because "the people of this town don't feel safe on the roads they built with their taxpayer dollars because of cyclists that don't obey the law." I listened, discussed with him briefly, and about 15 minutes later (it was a long lecture!) went along my way. He didn't cite me for anything.
So, yes, in California a bike must come to a stop before a right turn on red. I don't believe we have any version of the idaho yield. But I can't imagine a more victimless crime here. It wasn't even a full intersection, and there were zero cars coming out of the parking lot entry... and there was a bike lane on the main road so it's not like I turned out into traffic.
What does everyone think? Horrible behavior on my part to turn on red at 10mph (if that!) into and out of a parking lot access road? I mean, laws are laws. I get it. Slippery slope. But I suppose I've always believed that things like jaywalking, speeding, and incomplete stops when there are literally no vehicles nearby to be impacted are acceptable compromises between the law and expediency.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,839
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6934 Post(s)
Liked 10,938 Times
in
4,673 Posts
This is in the wrong subforum; needs to go in Advocacy and Safety, where it will quickly devolve into a heated argument and go on for six pages.
And no, I'm not kidding.
And no, I'm not kidding.
Likes For Koyote:
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,384 Times
in
708 Posts
Oops. If a mod could move it, that would be great. Or, not, I guess! Maybe there will be something interesting on Page 6.
Likes For mschwett:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,352
Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,942 Times
in
1,905 Posts
but but but, what if you didn't see those geese waddling out off the curb to take a poop in the bicycle lane? You cuud huve hertid thim!!
__________________
-Oh Hey!
-Oh Hey!
#5
Senior Member
If the Law states that you have to come to a complete stop at a red light, then, well, if you didn't do that the officer was within his power to stop you. Do I "like" that Law? No, maybe? I don't know. Bike Laws are fickled things. Some are old and arcane and others just don't make any sense at all, and others are completely justified.
I say, chalk it up to a lesson learned and move on.
I say, chalk it up to a lesson learned and move on.
Likes For drlogik:
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,060
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 529 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 255 Times
in
185 Posts
Sometimes police are unreasonable. Sometimes police are dishonest. I believe they need quotas, so the dream up trivial things to book people.
I have never been stopped on a bicycle.
So before you run a red light on a bicycle, make sure it is safe to do so, and look to see if any police are around.
I have never been stopped on a bicycle.
So before you run a red light on a bicycle, make sure it is safe to do so, and look to see if any police are around.
#7
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,118
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1338 Post(s)
Liked 2,473 Times
in
1,448 Posts
Moved to A&S.
Likes For Hermes:
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Eastern VA
Posts: 1,717
Bikes: 2022 Fuel EX 8, 2021 Domane SL6, Black Beta (Nashbar frame), 2004 Trek 1000C for the trainer
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 266 Post(s)
Liked 447 Times
in
266 Posts
Years ago like in the sixties my dad got a ticket for running a stop sign on his motorcycle in Virginia. He did come to a complete stop and the officer admitted but he did not put his foot on the ground. Never new if the law specifically says motorcyclist had to put a foot down or not. The if one has a side car. Still wondered if it applied to bicyclist.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,346
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 680 Post(s)
Liked 947 Times
in
554 Posts
we came to a stop riding our tandem at a light and saw a motorcycle cop hollering at the leader fo a small group of cyclists. Then I guess It was not getting through so the cop used his loud speaker. not sure what it was about but he sure got an earful I think he ran a red light.
#10
Galveston County Texas
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In The Wind
Posts: 33,219
Bikes: 02 GTO, 2011 Magnum
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1349 Post(s)
Liked 1,243 Times
in
621 Posts
I ride to Be Safe, Not to Be Legal.
Never want to be Rear Ended at a Red Light.
Never want to be Rear Ended at a Red Light.
__________________
Fred "The Real Fred"
Fred "The Real Fred"
Likes For 10 Wheels:
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,384 Times
in
708 Posts
that's always been my strategy. i mean, my trip out of the city has 20 stop signs, 400 feet apart, at 90 degree intersections on 25mph roads with clear visibility in both directions every time. i don't stop at them unless there's a car or pedestrian or cyclist within range of the intersection in the other direction. but, like this officer said, in the big city, it's anarchy!!!!!
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 612 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 387 Times
in
270 Posts
But I can't imagine a more victimless crime here
I ride to Be Safe, Not to Be Legal.
Never want to be Rear Ended at a Red Light.
Never want to be Rear Ended at a Red Light.
#13
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,845
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2134 Post(s)
Liked 1,643 Times
in
825 Posts
It seems the locals are voicing their complaints about lawlessness with cyclists. It sounds like the officer was polite enough. He spent 15 minutes in conversation with you and didn't ticket you.
ALL OF US break the law when we think we can do it safely and we won't be ticketed. MOST of the time that works well for us. Sometimes it doesn't.
ALL OF US break the law when we think we can do it safely and we won't be ticketed. MOST of the time that works well for us. Sometimes it doesn't.
Likes For Paul Barnard:
#14
Full Member
I think the cop was in his right to stop you. In fact, I hope that happens a little bit around our town with the sidewalk riders for their own good. I do not want any cyclist to be ticketed but I do want them to be informed. Some know the law/safest approaches and decide to do other things, which is not uncommon. Others do not know and if stopped, need to be informed.
The thing that bothered me most about your conversation was when he discussed the way streets are paid for ... "the people of this town don't feel safe on the roads they built with their taxpayer dollars because of cyclists that don't obey the law." It could be one two things. First is that you are from SF and did not pay for the roads. So, you have a higher obligation to obey the law. That seems silly. I expect he does not really know how roads are funded and believes they are paid by gas tax. He was suggesting to you that you are borrowing road space that you do not pay for. Consequently, you should behave as a guest. Your best behavior.
It is a BS argument made by many. In fact, if you pay any taxes state/federal, your dollars can be found in the cement you were riding on.
The thing that bothered me most about your conversation was when he discussed the way streets are paid for ... "the people of this town don't feel safe on the roads they built with their taxpayer dollars because of cyclists that don't obey the law." It could be one two things. First is that you are from SF and did not pay for the roads. So, you have a higher obligation to obey the law. That seems silly. I expect he does not really know how roads are funded and believes they are paid by gas tax. He was suggesting to you that you are borrowing road space that you do not pay for. Consequently, you should behave as a guest. Your best behavior.
It is a BS argument made by many. In fact, if you pay any taxes state/federal, your dollars can be found in the cement you were riding on.
Likes For debade:
#15
Very Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Always on the Run
Posts: 1,211
Bikes: Giant Quasar & Fuji Roubaix
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Liked 343 Times
in
244 Posts
I'd a cited you on principle! Too many hooligan bikers out here to be safe on our own streets. We need more officers like that whom are willing to enforce these laws and get us bikers to heel.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,415
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 612 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 387 Times
in
270 Posts
Wen I approach a four way stop and there is traffic there, I stop and obey the right of way. People wait until I am completely stopped before they take their turn. Sometimes I have to encourage them to take their turn. They don't trust me to obey the law and they are scared that they might hit me. Riding like a hood ornament wannabe creates mistrust and also angers some people. I have been on the receiving end of some of that anger before. There is no such thing as a victimless crime. There are wannabe bicycle riders.
Likes For Rick:
#18
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
I say don't cite cyclists... the harm they cause by errant behavior is statistically negligible... which is why cyclists are not required to carry liability insurance to use the roads. Cyclists biking in a dangerous manner will be removed by the dominate road users... automobile drivers.
Really, other than to meet the exact letter of the law, what IS the point of citing cyclists. If the same "letter of the law" approach is taken toward motorists, stop every speeder. Ain't gonna happen.
Enough with the anti-bike campaigns by LEOs.
Really, other than to meet the exact letter of the law, what IS the point of citing cyclists. If the same "letter of the law" approach is taken toward motorists, stop every speeder. Ain't gonna happen.
Enough with the anti-bike campaigns by LEOs.
Likes For genec:
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
Most common victims of dangerous cycling behavior are pedestrians, next other cyclists.
Keep in mind an actual crash isn't required before there can be a victim.
Just as with vehicle close passes, intimidation leading people to conclude there are appropriate and legal activities they cannot safely enjoy is arguably a greater public issue than the actual instances of injuries and deaths.
(There's bike infrastructure that's been lost to intimidation in the form of scofflaw pedestrian behavior, too)
Last edited by UniChris; 06-21-21 at 02:11 PM.
#20
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Greenville. SC USA
Posts: 7,512
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1430 Post(s)
Liked 330 Times
in
218 Posts
I think that cop would have arrested me right off the Golden Gate Bridge because by the time he could have caught up with me I would have run ALL the red lights in Sausalito. At last estimate, in my city where no one cares, I ran on the average of 16,000 red lights and stop signs every year when I worked and commuted in the city grid.
Unless someone else has the ROW, I don't stop. And thanks to cell phones causing driver hesitation, sometimes not even then.
So what do I think? I think you are a horrible person for terrifying those fine citizens of Sausalito with your scofflaw cycling behavior.
Unless someone else has the ROW, I don't stop. And thanks to cell phones causing driver hesitation, sometimes not even then.
So what do I think? I think you are a horrible person for terrifying those fine citizens of Sausalito with your scofflaw cycling behavior.
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,865
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Canyon Exceed, Specialized Transition, Ellsworth Roots, Ridley Excalibur
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2952 Post(s)
Liked 3,106 Times
in
1,417 Posts
Sausalito is pretty well known for hyper-strict enforcement against cyclists, especially tourists who ride over the bridge from the City. And if you don't know, well now you know....
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2973 Post(s)
Liked 1,178 Times
in
769 Posts
As long as no cars are coming from either direction...I run through red lights all of the time with my bike.
Then again...I live in a place where the police don't care about such frivolous stuff.
Then again...I live in a place where the police don't care about such frivolous stuff.
#23
Senior Member
If that cop were to ticket every driver who rolls through red lights and stop signs without making a full stop, he'd lose his job.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
Climbing through Easton to an ill-chosen hotel far off the D&L I recall seeing a sign along the lines of
"Rolling stops: $125. Actual stops: still free. Your choice"
"Rolling stops: $125. Actual stops: still free. Your choice"
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked 418 Times
in
250 Posts
that's always been my strategy. i mean, my trip out of the city has 20 stop signs, 400 feet apart, at 90 degree intersections on 25mph roads with clear visibility in both directions every time. i don't stop at them unless there's a car or pedestrian or cyclist within range of the intersection in the other direction. but, like this officer said, in the big city, it's anarchy!!!!!
Bicycle Safety Stop Law
If California can get it done this year I think that will make 10 states where it is legal for cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs.