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The low standard of lockdown pedestrianism

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The low standard of lockdown pedestrianism

Old 07-18-21, 07:04 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
They call them *multiuse* paths in my area. I’ve seen all kinds of uses from sitting in lawn chairs to laying on beach towels to all kinds of other stuff. I figure riding with headphones and earphones is one of those multi uses. I take it on myself to pass safely. And by gosh it seems to work. It does require the occasional slowing to a stop. I figure I can get plenty of fast riding on the road.

And I do this successfully…while wearing earbuds!

Gotta say, you actually don't necessarily know when you're causing a problem. I've only had earbuds on a cyclist endanger me and pedestrians once, and it was because he didn't hear me announce my pass, and suddenly swerved right in front of me. He was so close that I had to bail into the right lane, scaring the crap out of pedestrians with an uncomfortably close swerve between them ( they actually weren't in any danger, I made sure they knew what I was doing by announcing it, but I did scare them). Long story short, earbuds guy never looked behind him, and never even noticed the commotion.
And yeah, don't pull the "it's your fault for going too fast" crap or whatever, I was doing what would have been a perfectly reasonable pass, and obviously wasn't going too fast if I could actually bail on it without hitting anyone.

BTW, the pedestrians were yelling at me, then realized what had actually happened, and tried to yell at earbuds guy.
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Old 07-18-21, 07:38 AM
  #27  
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Old 07-18-21, 07:39 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Gotta say, you actually don't necessarily know when you're causing a problem. I've only had earbuds on a cyclist endanger me and pedestrians once, and it was because he didn't hear me announce my pass, and suddenly swerved right in front of me. He was so close that I had to bail into the right lane, scaring the crap out of pedestrians with an uncomfortably close swerve between them ( they actually weren't in any danger, I made sure they knew what I was doing by announcing it, but I did scare them). Long story short, earbuds guy never looked behind him, and never even noticed the commotion.
And yeah, don't pull the "it's your fault for going too fast" crap or whatever, I was doing what would have been a perfectly reasonable pass, and obviously wasn't going too fast if I could actually bail on it without hitting anyone.

BTW, the pedestrians were yelling at me, then realized what had actually happened, and tried to yell at earbuds guy.
I consider it MY responsibility to pass safely. Just yesterday morning I passed a large group of hikers on a short section of MUP. I guess they were practicing. I announced my pass and all but one heard me. He was wearing huge earphones. Which is his right. When he didnít move after my second call I just slowed to a stop which is when I noticed the headphones. His two buddies pulled him over. I smiled and continued, life unaltered by the slow down.

Any given speed thatís ďperfectly reasonableĒ isnít perfectly reasonable if itís not safe because someone doesnít hear you. Headphones, just zoned out or possibly deaf. Iíve finally just decided to expect the unexpected on the MUP. Honestly I have more problems with of leash dogs and children.
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Old 07-18-21, 07:44 AM
  #29  
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I use one of these to ward Off Dogs.
Found they also work for Zoned out Walkers or Runners.

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Old 07-18-21, 07:58 AM
  #30  
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I feel very fortunate that I "grew up" riding the roads without cycling infrastructure. I've been on these MUPs and they are bad and that was way before the pandemic; I can only imagine a pandemic-filled MUP.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:10 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by 10 Wheels View Post
I use one of these to ward Off Dogs.
Found they also work for Zoned out Walkers or Runners.

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What a wonderful asset to the bicycling community. I didn't think anything could be more irritating than those broadcasting their music to everyone around them with BT speakers. I was wrong.

This is the cycling equivalent to a "punishment pass" by a automobile.
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Old 07-18-21, 08:41 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
My philosophy, as a cyclist, is to learn to live with the realities of MUP, slow down, and not holler "Onyerleft!" every few minutes, expecting everyone else to "Git outta mah way!" just because I'm on wheels. That's the same selfish attitude that makes streets unsafe for cyclists.
Mostly in agreement, pedestrians are not obligated to step aside for cyclists and we shouldn't be asking them to.

But one thing does stand out.

​​​​​​"On your left" or "ding" is mostly an advisory not to do anything sudden.

It's not a request unless the recipient is doing something unreasonable like occupying the middle of the path or in a group spilling into the other lane.

The more it's routine and the more it's simply a reminder to tighten up to occupying only say 35-40 pecent percent of the entire bidirectional path's width, the smoother things are for everyone.
​​​​​​
Experienced pedestrians in such a situation often just respond with a little half wave of their still lowered hand because there's nothing they actually need to do when they're already using the path correctly. More than a few will say thanks without turning their head to look.

I ride my MUP end to end, but I walk a mile of it more often than I go for a ride. The courtesy notification system works equally well for me in both roles.

Though I do find a vague but evidence-unjustified unease when walking, because I keep habitually darting my eyes to a helmet mirror that isn't there.

Last edited by UniChris; 07-18-21 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 07-18-21, 09:11 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
I consider it MY responsibility to pass safely. Just yesterday morning I passed a large group of hikers on a short section of MUP. I guess they were practicing. I announced my pass and all but one heard me. He was wearing huge earphones. Which is his right. When he didnít move after my second call I just slowed to a stop which is when I noticed the headphones. His two buddies pulled him over. I smiled and continued, life unaltered by the slow down.

Any given speed thatís ďperfectly reasonableĒ isnít perfectly reasonable if itís not safe because someone doesnít hear you. Headphones, just zoned out or possibly deaf. Iíve finally just decided to expect the unexpected on the MUP. Honestly I have more problems with of leash dogs and children.

I don't think it's a major problem either, that was one incident in literally thousands of miles, but he definitely a) caused the issue as he intentionally deafened himself, and b) did absolutely nothing to announce his pass of pedestrians before he swerved a few feet in front of me. I'm not getting what you're saying here about "reasonable speed". If I read you literally, I think you just said I can never safely pass someone wearing headphones. Screw that. I'm not riding the path stuck at the speed of the slowest person wearing headphones.

This guy's headphones were nearly invisible, btw. I had no indication whatsoever he didn't hear me until I saw the side of his head directly in my path. I fulfilled everything I could possibly have in order to make that pass safe, including successfully aborting the pass when Mr. Oblivious suddenly decided to ride erratically. Point is he never actually knew he had caused a near miss. Blocking out one of your senses can do that to a person.
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Old 07-18-21, 09:20 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
Mostly in agreement, pedestrians are not obligated to step aside for cyclists and we shouldn't be asking them to.

But one thing does stand out.

​​​​​​"On your left" or "ding" is mostly an advisory not to do anything sudden.

It's not a request unless the recipient is doing something unreasonable like occupying the middle of the path or in a group spilling into the other lane.

The more it's routine and the more it's simply a reminder to tighten up to occupying only say 35-40 pecent percent of the entire bidirectional path's width, the smoother things are for everyone.
​​​​​​
Experienced pedestrians in such a situation often just respond with a little half wave of their still lowered hand because there's nothing they actually need to do when they're already using the path correctly. More than a few will say thanks without turning their head to look.

I ride my MUP end to end, but I walk a mile of it more often than I go for a ride. The courtesy notification system works equally well for me in both roles.

Though I do find a vague but evidence-unjustified unease when walking, because I keep habitually darting my eyes to a helmet mirror that isn't there.

I don't like it when someone yells a gruff "left" at me, but I'd rather they do that than ninja pass me. I announce as politely as I can, and I try to give them enough notice so they don't think I'm demanding they scramble. It's actually legally required where I ride, and sometimes the interaction is actually pleasant. I generally try to throw in a "good morning" or the like if I think they might think I'm being aggressive. I'm literally doing exactly what you say, I just don't want them to step to their left in front of me.

When people do stay or move to the right, a "thank you" as you pass is a nice gesture. I do that one a lot, especially when I see someone working to keep their dog out of my way.

And if all else fails, my brakes are really good.
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Old 07-18-21, 09:47 AM
  #35  
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I have a bell and for cars and the hard of hearing I got this.

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Old 07-18-21, 10:47 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I don't think it's a major problem either, that was one incident in literally thousands of miles, but he definitely a) caused the issue as he intentionally deafened himself, and b) did absolutely nothing to announce his pass of pedestrians before he swerved a few feet in front of me. I'm not getting what you're saying here about "reasonable speed". If I read you literally, I think you just said I can never safely pass someone wearing headphones. Screw that. I'm not riding the path stuck at the speed of the slowest person wearing headphones.

This guy's headphones were nearly invisible, btw. I had no indication whatsoever he didn't hear me until I saw the side of his head directly in my path. I fulfilled everything I could possibly have in order to make that pass safe, including successfully aborting the pass when Mr. Oblivious suddenly decided to ride erratically. Point is he never actually knew he had caused a near miss. Blocking out one of your senses can do that to a person.
What Iím saying is if I hit someone while passing, that demonstrates the pass wasnít safe. Seems pretty reasonable that the responsibility to pass safely is the person who is passing. Whether we like it or not, others are GOING to listen to music with headphones.
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Old 07-18-21, 12:45 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by fredlord View Post
Yes. This one seems to be more serious. I live in one of the Local Government Areas that has been turned into a Do Not Leave zone. Centennial Park and Rookwood Cemetery, my two favourite places to ride hard in, are now apparently off-limits to me. I have to find out if the Do Not Leave injunction apples to exercise as well as for work.
Yeah we are on the uptick with more COVID cases going to the hospitals and bound for respirators. So I fully expect to be back in similar situation.

First time I did get to ride some routes that I wouldn't have normally done. But for the most part the roads with interesting climbs and descents don't have a lot of traffic anyhow.

If our local MUP fills up, then I'll not worry, it's far too easy to go elsewhere from where I currently live. Indeed, my current location is right next to cycling routes for me and shopping and things for my wife that we scrapped plans to move back near family as we'd loose the conveniences we've gotten use to.

Do you have any idea what all the other stuff going on in this thread is about? <grin>
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Old 07-18-21, 02:02 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
...


Do you have any idea what all the other stuff going on in this thread is about? <grin>
I think the OP was noticing what we in North America had noticed in 2020.

But in Toronto, with the surge in bicycle ridership, you'd think there'd be a proportional increase in bicycle related injuries and fatalities. Nope, the number of fatalities stayed the same as in any normal year at four but the injury rate declined by about 76%.
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Old 07-18-21, 02:05 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by fredlord View Post
...

Australian drivers are probably among the worst in the western world. .
Do Australians consider themselves as part of the West? Your East Coast is closer to the International Date Line than Japan.
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Old 07-18-21, 03:37 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
What Iím saying is if I hit someone while passing, that demonstrates the pass wasnít safe. Seems pretty reasonable that the responsibility to pass safely is the person who is passing. Whether we like it or not, others are GOING to listen to music with headphones.
We were both passing, so no, it can demonstrate that headphones guy failed to assess whether it was safe for HIM to pass. Basic rule is you never enter a lane until you have verified it was clear. He knows he can't hear, that obligates him to look behind before he starts his pass. By your formulation, it's always the fault of anyone who passes a guy wearing headphones.

If you're going to listen to music with headphones, YOU have an additional responsibility to deal with the fact that you are wilfully making it impossible for people to communicate with you.

If you're arguing that you wearing headphones imposes responsibility on people who aren't, it's a pretty small walk from that to "headphones should be banned." I don't support that because I think people who wear headphones can ride responsibly, but if you think it's other people's responsibility to protect you from the consequences of your choice to deafen yourself, I might need to reconsider that.
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Old 07-18-21, 06:05 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
...Though I do find a vague but evidence-unjustified unease when walking, because I keep habitually darting my eyes to a helmet mirror that isn't there.
Same. When I'm walking or jogging I find myself glancing at my non-existent mirror. I'm considering putting one of my Take-A-Look mirrors on my sunglasses for that purpose. There are a couple of places on my usual jogging route where I can't walk/jog facing traffic from the shoulder, and the shoulders are either deteriorated or covered in rocks from washouts, so I have to walk in the rightmost traffic lane for about 50 yards. It's a very lightly traveled access road, but I'd still feel a bit better having that rear view mirror to watch the distracted drivers mesmerized by their phones clobber me from behind.
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Old 07-18-21, 06:58 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by fredlord View Post
The bike paths that I'm about to give up on are teeming with oblivious nincompoops. They've been winkled out of their homes for "exercise" by Sydney's lockdown regulations that have recently become even more stringent. A large percentage of these people have obviously very little experience with being in the real world and many attempt to bring their safe little cyber world with them into the real world in the form of screens and earphones.
That sounds very similar to most of the posts about cyclists on motoring forums
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Old 07-18-21, 09:48 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
We were both passing, so no, it can demonstrate that headphones guy failed to assess whether it was safe for HIM to pass. Basic rule is you never enter a lane until you have verified it was clear. He knows he can't hear, that obligates him to look behind before he starts his pass. By your formulation, it's always the fault of anyone who passes a guy wearing headphones.

If you're going to listen to music with headphones, YOU have an additional responsibility to deal with the fact that you are wilfully making it impossible for people to communicate with you.

If you're arguing that you wearing headphones imposes responsibility on people who aren't, it's a pretty small walk from that to "headphones should be banned." I don't support that because I think people who wear headphones can ride responsibly, but if you think it's other people's responsibility to protect you from the consequences of your choice to deafen yourself, I might need to reconsider that.
Itís pretty simple. I feel itís the responsibility of the person passing to pass safely. You feel differently. Great. I feel I can ride safely with earbuds. You donít. Great. You arenít going to change my mind and Iím not going to change yours.

Iíll continue to use extra caution while passing and slower speed in general while riding on MUPS. I hope thatís okay.
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Old 07-19-21, 04:46 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by MattTheHat View Post
Itís pretty simple. I feel itís the responsibility of the person passing to pass safely. You feel differently. Great. I feel I can ride safely with earbuds. You donít. Great. You arenít going to change my mind and Iím not going to change yours.

Iíll continue to use extra caution while passing and slower speed in general while riding on MUPS. I hope thatís okay.
Of course it's a person's job to pass safely, but if someone else is making completely unpredictable and unannounced sudden swerves, then there's no safe way to do this.
Simple questions -- do you check behind you before you change lanes to pass? Do you announce your passes? If the answer to either of those is no, I don't agree you're exercising proper caution.
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Old 07-19-21, 05:16 AM
  #45  
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Yeah, pedestrians are low standard, but not as bad as the bicyclist I had to follow down the street yesterday who was weaving through moving heavy traffic and running the lights while talking on the phone, checking his messages, riding no-hands and consequently weaving all over the road. At least he was more or less on the right side of the road most of the time and wasn't going against the traffic at night wearing black, no lights, as I see too often.

Bicyclists are worse than pedestrians because they have more equipment to abuse, faster, and this is why I avoid bike paths and bikers as much as possible
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Old 07-19-21, 07:08 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
But in Toronto, with the surge in bicycle ridership, you'd think there'd be a proportional increase in bicycle related injuries and fatalities. Nope, the number of fatalities stayed the same as in any normal year at four but the injury rate declined by about 76%.
Is there any reference to the method and data used for calculating and comparing Toronto's "injury rate" for various time periods?
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Old 07-19-21, 09:52 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
MUP conversations usually break down because everyone just assumes they're the same everywhere, so people with crappy paths near them end up arguing with people who have good ones.
Here the same MUPs are markedly different depending upon location. In some places, they are packed with other users. Two miles further, you have them almost to yourself. Much like riding on the road, it helps to stay on high guard and to try to be respectful of other users.
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Old 07-19-21, 02:14 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Do Australians consider themselves as part of the West? Your East Coast is closer to the International Date Line than Japan.
It's a state of mind. Regrettably, the Australian psyche more closely resembles the American than the Japanese.
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Old 07-19-21, 05:29 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by fredlord View Post
It's a state of mind. Regrettably, the Australian psyche more closely resembles the American than the Japanese.
Take it from a Canadian. You've got a long way to go before you resemble the USA. And that's a compliment.
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Old 07-21-21, 01:38 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by 05 fuji View Post
You deserve what you get on the road.
I donít incessantly whine about what happens on the road
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