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Are cheaper tires robbing your frame's ride quality?

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Are cheaper tires robbing your frame's ride quality?

Old 06-02-21, 12:15 PM
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uprightbent
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Are cheaper tires robbing your frame's ride quality?

After a lengthy rebuilding, polishing, and respoking of a particularly nice Rigida 700 wheelset from the early 80's, I've decided to keep them on the bike with such a nice finish and buttery smooth Suzue hubs. Since they're unhooked rims, I went the safe route of mounting wire beaded Paselas (28's), from a fear of tires blowing or rolling off an almost 40 year old bike, landing this almost 60 year old into an ER. The ride is "okay", but I suspect the best of this 531 frame would come out on more supple tires. I've thought of Compass-Rene Herse and others, but they all seem to be of the folding variety. I'm assuming, correct me please, that the wire bead on the Paselas might hold a tighter circle and be less inclined to blow or roll off. I'm only running them at 80 psi rear and 70 front anyways.

Can anyone suggest a wire beaded version of something better than the old Paselas in a 28-32 max width? Or have you just mounted folding beads on unhooked rims with no issues? It does seem like a waste to run these beer tires on champagne frames, or maybe it just doesn't matter.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 06-02-21, 12:26 PM
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I'm not sure about all that as I've never run hookless rims, so I'm here to learn a bit myself. I will say I would imagine some tubeless ready folding tires could work out. The sets I have were/are exceedingly tight to seat and stay that way. Unless you're pulling them on and off frequently and they stretch. And, I suppose it would be contingent on the rim since actual rim diameter fit can vary a tad
Anyway, I do recall in threads past mention of this very issue and, IIRC, wire beads are suggested. Grain of salt....
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Old 06-02-21, 01:11 PM
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I'll let those more knowledgeable answer your second question, but as for your first I can say they absolutely are!! My Surly Cross Check on Compass tires rides much better than the 531, Prestige, etc frames I've ridden with Paselas.
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Old 06-02-21, 01:18 PM
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I've always liked Continentals for good value and ride in a wired bead. They will never equal the quality of great tires on hooked rims but they are still fun. All bikes are fun.
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Old 06-02-21, 01:19 PM
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Wire bead is the safest bet on hookless rims, and as far as I know the Pasela is about as good as you'll find. At its price point it is a good tire. If you want to run higher end tires with folding beads and more supple casings, ditch the hookless rims.
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Old 06-02-21, 02:03 PM
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...my experience, and it includes many years off riding, rebuilding wheels with newer rims, and experimenting with various tyre brands on my own bicycles, which are many, leads to this advice: if you are interested in ride quality, toss those period correct hookless rims and rework your wheels using at least a Sun or better quality rim.


One of the reasons the olde guys here are so enamored of glue on tyres and rims is because of their inherent lightness. Another is the higher pressures you can run with tubular tyres, because they won't blow off the rim. You couldn't approach that with clincher tyres at 60-70 psi and alloy rims in the early days of hookless rims. You can get a lot closer nowadays. So you kind of need to choose which is more important to you. the top quality tyres today are all designed with hook bead rims in mind.
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Old 06-02-21, 04:49 PM
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What is the casing thread count...

...on the wire bead Paselaís? Just curious.

In an ideal world I would 2nd what others have said about re-lacing the wheels with modern rims (that still have the look you are after).

But to improve the ride of the 700c Rigida/Pasela combo you could experiment with latex inner tubes & also using thinner (tubeless type) rim tape. The tubeless rim tape will permit a bit more interior volume and the latex tubes can be very palpable with high thread count clinchers. With your wire bead tires it is possible that the casings are just too dead to let the latex tube increase road feel or cornering precision. I would do the front wheel with this treatment then road test it to see if you can feel a difference.
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Old 06-02-21, 05:05 PM
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Just curious, which pasela's have you tried? In my experience, the paselas with the ProTite protection layer tend to have a slightly stiffer feel than the regular non-PT (red label) paselas. Also, what pressure are you running on those 28s?
I've had the 27 x 1-1/4 non-PT wire-beaded paselas on a couple bikes and they ride reasonably well.
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Old 06-02-21, 05:13 PM
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And I thought I was styling on my paselas after upgrading from decades of Kendas. Oh well.
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Old 06-03-21, 10:41 AM
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Continental Ultra Sport II are available in wire and folding bead versions and both are very snug fits -- you'll want a bead jack to mount them.

Pretty good ride for inexpensive tires too, much better than other low priced tires I've tried such as the Vittoria Zaffiro. The Conti Ultra Sport is durable, reasonably puncture resistant considering it has no special puncture shield, and retains reasonably low rolling resistance at lower than maximum pressure. And there are a few choices in sidewall stripe colors.

Continental hasn't offer much specific info about the newer Ultra Sport 3 but it appears to be the same tire with a slightly different tread pattern.
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Old 06-03-21, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Continental Ultra Sport II are available in wire and folding bead versions and both are very snug fits -- you'll want a bead jack to mount them.

Pretty good ride for inexpensive tires too, much better than other low priced tires I've tried such as the Vittoria Zaffiro. The Conti Ultra Sport is durable, reasonably puncture resistant considering it has no special puncture shield, and retains reasonably low rolling resistance at lower than maximum pressure. And there are a few choices in sidewall stripe colors..
+1 I have had great luck with Ultra Sport II 700x32s, including lots of miles on crushed stone trails.

Otto
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Old 06-03-21, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by panzerwagon View Post
Just curious, which pasela's have you tried? In my experience, the paselas with the ProTite protection layer tend to have a slightly stiffer feel than the regular non-PT (red label) paselas. Also, what pressure are you running on those 28s?
I've had the 27 x 1-1/4 non-PT wire-beaded paselas on a couple bikes and they ride reasonably well.
These are the paselas I put on a 73 Super Sport and was very pleased. I am not too cultured I guess as the paselas in folding style in various sizes are very nice on several other bikes I have. Here in the flatlands, one has to be a bit discerning to appreciate subtle changes with tires. Iím not sure that I would be able to appreciate a $50 tire, but the old Schwinn did like the upgrade.
As an aside, on my limited perspective of weinmann rims on the old Schwinn, I NEVER had problems with the non beaded rims with Schwinn approved cheapies and Kendas. In my youth I even put 85 lbs in them like the sidewall said so that I could feel fast. I never had trouble. I was about 170lbs then just like now. I even loaded the old Super Sport down for a circle Ohio ride in 1980 with 25-30 lbs of gear on the back on a plescher rack with no problems. Perhaps those old Weinmanns were a good match.
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Old 06-03-21, 02:09 PM
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I blame this thread for the Rene Herse Bon Jon Pass tires being sold out when I finally got around to buying them this morning XP
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Old 06-03-21, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...my experience, and it includes many years off riding, rebuilding wheels with newer rims, and experimenting with various tyre brands on my own bicycles, which are many, leads to this advice: if you are interested in ride quality, toss those period correct hookless rims and rework your wheels using at least a Sun or better quality rim.
+1

Supple tires on modern rims would transform your ride experience. If you can fit 32s, go right to the king of tarmac (and light gravel, in my experience): Conti gp5000s: more durable casings (3/330), less $$ and rolling resistance than RH offerings: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...000-comparison
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Old 06-03-21, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgregorj View Post
I blame this thread for the Rene Herse Bon Jon Pass tires being sold out when I finally got around to buying them this morning XP
Itís amusing to imagine a horde of C&Víers descending upon their website, triggered by the slightest whiff of discontent on the forums with alternatives. Yet another reason why we need a volatility index for C&V parts.
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Old 06-03-21, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ctak View Post
+1

Conti gp5000s: more durable casings (3/330), less $$ and rolling resistance than RH offerings: https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...000-comparison
Your link does not support your statement because: 1) there is no comparison to RH tires on that website; 2) their rolling resistance measurements are on a diamond-plate roller, which is of questionable utility for real-world measurements.
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Old 06-03-21, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by davester View Post
Your link does not support your statement because: 1) there is no comparison to RH tires on that website; 2) their rolling resistance measurements are on a diamond-plate roller, which is of questionable utility for real-world measurements.
I shared the link merely to point to the rolling resistance data for GP5000s. My comparative opinion vs RH tires is based on personal experience over many miles. I was initially skeptical of BRR's lab methodology, but have found their drum and durability results map over well to real life.
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Old 06-03-21, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by uprightbent View Post
After a lengthy rebuilding, polishing, and respoking of a particularly nice Rigida 700 wheelset from the early 80's, I've decided to keep them on the bike with such a nice finish and buttery smooth Suzue hubs. Since they're unhooked rims, I went the safe route of mounting wire beaded Paselas (28's), from a fear of tires blowing or rolling off an almost 40 year old bike, landing this almost 60 year old into an ER. The ride is "okay", but I suspect the best of this 531 frame would come out on more supple tires. I've thought of Compass-Rene Herse and others, but they all seem to be of the folding variety. I'm assuming, correct me please, that the wire bead on the Paselas might hold a tighter circle and be less inclined to blow or roll off. I'm only running them at 80 psi rear and 70 front anyways.

Can anyone suggest a wire beaded version of something better than the old Paselas in a 28-32 max width? Or have you just mounted folding beads on unhooked rims with no issues? It does seem like a waste to run these beer tires on champagne frames, or maybe it just doesn't matter.

Thanks in advance!
@uprightbent I just built up a set of Rigid red-labels 700c. I thought they had at least a bump (maybe not a full hook) on the inner wall and they weren't flat like an older 27" wheel. It's been 3 weeks or so and I've been focusing on dismantling and building wheels so I'm not sure I'm remembering the inner wall correctly. I do know I put on GP5000's 25's that I generally run at 90 -100 psi. I have had no issues with them at all with at least a couple hundred miles on them.

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Old 06-03-21, 08:22 PM
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Most of the time, ride quality of the tires is proportional to the price you paid for them.
I did not really feel this that much till I experienced the difference between the Vittoria Rally and Vittoria Graphene G tubs I bought in the last few years. The Rallies made my bikes feel kinda numb and dead (still better than most clinchers I had ridden, but not that great), compared to their Graphene G version which made my bike feel much faster and livelier on the road.
I have not ridden clinchers for a while, but IIRC, the difference between tires of different prices wasn't as easy to feel with most clinchers.

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Old 06-04-21, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sd5782 View Post
And I thought I was styling on my paselas after upgrading from decades of Kendas. Oh well.
There's that- and then going from Paselas to Compass/ReneHerse.
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Old 06-04-21, 07:30 AM
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Even in the Pasela line, I can feel the difference between the standard model and the one with the ProTite casing. I have two pairs of these, both in 700x38, and can feel the difference even when ridden on the same frame.

I certainly think more expensive (supple) tires would ride even nicer.
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Old 06-04-21, 08:14 AM
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I've been kinda tempted to try wired Zaffiros, sine I found 32s for $17 at Cambria.
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Old 06-04-21, 01:29 PM
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Better tires are well worth it!

Originally Posted by Dylansbob View Post
I've been kinda tempted to try wired Zaffiros, sine I found 32s for $17 at Cambria.
I have used wire-bead Zaffiros on my Fuji (27x1-1/8) for a number of years. I needed wire-beads for the hookless rims...

Then I got my Miyata 710 (700c)...
When I bought it, it had a 22mm wire bead Zaffiro on the front, and something - I can't remember what - that was flat on the rear. I wanted a new 28mm for the rear, and all the LBS had was a Vittoria Randonneur II in that size. The ride was sluggish - I thought Miyatas were better bikes... hmmm...
Fast-forward a year, and I'm heading back out to AZ to ride the Miyata, and I was bringing along some 'upgrade' parts to fit my personal preferences (SunTour friction barcons, new cables, bar tape, dual pivot brakes...) as well as a matched set (actually TWO sets) of Vittoria kevlar-bead Rubino Pro Tech III. One set in 28, and another in 25. I opted for the 28s for a softer ride. Lucky thing I didn't try to go larger because a 28mm fit the rear just fine, but the front left only 1mm clearance between the tire crown and fork bridge! Oh, and I probably cut a pound and a half off the rotating weight. The former front Zaffiro had a thick 'thorn-proof' tube in it that was also filled with Slime. The Zaffiro and tube combo weighed MORE than BOTH sets of 'standard' tubes and the supple 150tpi Rubino Pro Tech III that include the puncture-resistant layer for the AZ thorns and also the steel-belted-wire from people that run the tires down to the cords in rainless AZ... The difference in ride feel was dramatic! Much more responsive and smooth-rolling than the stiff sidewalls of the Zaffiro/heavy tube or the heavy Randonneur tire.
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Old 06-04-21, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dylansbob View Post
I've been kinda tempted to try wired Zaffiros, sine I found 32s for $17 at Cambria.
I just got a set of the 27" Zaffiros from Cambria today.



Off the bike, they feel pretty similar to a Pasela -- a bit thick (though less so on the sides), not terribly supple, but softer material than many other cheap tires.

I've read that wire beads themselves can contribute to a tire have a poor ride feel. That's tough to say because there just really aren't many (if any) high thread count tires with wire beads. Generally the tires with wire beads are pretty stiff to begin with. I guess maybe someone could compare folding bead Paselas to the wire bead version. Like everything with the feel of a bike, it's a huge pile of marginal gains. Good fit, good geometry, good build, good frame material, good rims, good tires, good tubes...they all make the ride better. Any one of them has to be pretty bad to make the ride bad.
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Old 06-04-21, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Most of the time, ride quality of the tires is proportional to the price you paid for them.
I did not really feel this that much till I experienced the difference between the Vittoria Rally and Vittoria Graphite G tubs I bought in the last few years. The Rallies made my bikes feel kinda numb and dead (still better than most clinchers I had ridden, but not that great), compared to their Graphene G version which made my bike feel much faster and livelier on the road.
I have not ridden clinchers for a while, but IIRC, the difference between tires of different prices wasn't as easy to feel with most clinchers.
My experience was a bit different .the first "nice" tires i put on a bike (Michelin Pro 4 course IIRC) were an amazing upgrade from my previous tires. more recently the difference between some 25 mm bontragers (with super heavy duty tubes) and Gravel King 28mm with conti racelite tubes was night an day
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