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Now that cycling is clean

Old 06-16-21, 06:57 PM
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Now that cycling is clean

With the "absence" of PEDs at the big races have times gotten slower?
gm
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Old 06-17-21, 12:59 PM
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Old 06-17-21, 01:26 PM
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For the grand tours, tours and one days that I watch, how would I or anyone know? They seldom ride the exact same route.

Still, it's who crosses the line first. Not how slow or fast they are.
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Old 06-17-21, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
For the grand tours, tours and one days that I watch, how would I or anyone know? They seldom ride the exact same route.

Still, it's who crosses the line first. Not how slow or fast they are.
And when they do, the conditions are often very different, as are the tactics employed on that particular day.

But, no one seriously thinks cycling is clean do they?
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Old 06-17-21, 01:49 PM
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Relax and enjoy the show. Professional sports are just a form of entertainment.
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Old 06-17-21, 08:35 PM
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It's not a constructive conversation, really, and if anybody has the energy to go down that rabbit hole again, will probably devolve into a debate about the meaning of "clean".

But the way to tell is to compare times on classic climbs. Though they aren't climbing Alpe d'Huez this year, a look at the best times through the years shows that modern racers do not match the times of Pantani or Armstrong during the heavy doping era

https://cycling-passion.com/top-200-...s-alpe-d-huez/
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Old 06-27-21, 01:54 PM
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Lol if you think cycling or any pro sport for that matter is “clean”.
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Old 06-27-21, 03:00 PM
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Sigh...just means they've found new ways to hide things. They all cheat.
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Old 06-29-21, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post


It's not a constructive conversation, really, and if anybody has the energy to go down that rabbit hole again, will probably devolve into a debate about the meaning of "clean".

But the way to tell is to compare times on classic climbs. Though they aren't climbing Alpe d'Huez this year, a look at the best times through the years shows that modern racers do not match the times of Pantani or Armstrong during the heavy doping era

https://cycling-passion.com/top-200-...s-alpe-d-huez/

Sheesh -- Big Mig scorched it in 1995 ! -- the man weighed 180 ! No, -- he wasnt on anything but vitamins and good vibes ! (although id like to think he was clean - seemingly such a humble and quiet guy )
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Old 06-29-21, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
Sheesh -- Big Mig scorched it in 1995 ! -- the man weighed 180 ! No, -- he wasnt on anything but vitamins and good vibes ! (although id like to think he was clean - seemingly such a humble and quiet guy )
Haha, yeah, Indurain, we all say with a wan, knowing smile. The 6’2” 180-pound rider who rode six Tours de France with no great distinction and then ripped off five consecutive wins, coinciding with the popularly perceived date when EPO took over the sport. The Indurain who worked with Dr. Francesco Conconi, though only for “tests,” like to see how many pushups he could do in a row. The Indurain who quietly slipped away from the sport in the hopes of never facing any questions about his career again.
https://www.podiumcafe.com/2018/6/22...maybe-its-time
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Old 06-29-21, 08:06 PM
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Everyone is watching everyone else's power meters. They have to keep that part realistic.
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Old 06-30-21, 03:25 AM
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I'd like to see some data indicating trends in crashes. I have a hunch that one reason why there seem to be more crashes now is that, lacking the best juice for fueling the mountain stages, riders are taking bigger risks to make up time elsewhere.

It'd be interesting to see whether the data indicates the peloton was generally safer during the peak era of doping because the leaders made their best times on climbs and took fewer chances on other stages.

I've watched way too many hours of race movies dating back decades, but it seems as though there were fewer serious crashes years ago. Hard to be sure because we didn't have the wall-to-wall coverage that captured every break, every sneeze, every bobble in the pack. In older movies of the grand tour an announcer might mention a crash but often those weren't recorded so we saw only the aftermath, not how it happened.

And maybe it's mostly due to the end of the patron era, the peloton bosses who dictated -- or at least strongly influenced -- the pace on segments and stages. It's pretty obvious from watching older movies of the grand tours that the pelotons often loafed a bit between intermediate sprints, primes, etc. (although their "loafing" would be my "lungs are exploding and blood is leaking from my ears" effort). And the sprint finishes and bunch sprints were nowhere near as frenetic decades ago as they've become the past 10-20 years.

TBH, I kinda miss the golden era of doping. Gotta admit, it made for some exciting races.
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Old 06-30-21, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I'd like to see some data indicating trends in crashes. I have a hunch that one reason why there seem to be more crashes now is that, lacking the best juice for fueling the mountain stages, riders are taking bigger risks to make up time elsewhere.

It'd be interesting to see whether the data indicates the peloton was generally safer during the peak era of doping because the leaders made their best times on climbs and took fewer chances on other stages.

I've watched way too many hours of race movies dating back decades, but it seems as though there were fewer serious crashes years ago. Hard to be sure because we didn't have the wall-to-wall coverage that captured every break, every sneeze, every bobble in the pack. In older movies of the grand tour an announcer might mention a crash but often those weren't recorded so we saw only the aftermath, not how it happened.

And maybe it's mostly due to the end of the patron era, the peloton bosses who dictated -- or at least strongly influenced -- the pace on segments and stages. It's pretty obvious from watching older movies of the grand tours that the pelotons often loafed a bit between intermediate sprints, primes, etc. (although their "loafing" would be my "lungs are exploding and blood is leaking from my ears" effort). And the sprint finishes and bunch sprints were nowhere near as frenetic decades ago as they've become the past 10-20 years.

TBH, I kinda miss the golden era of doping. Gotta admit, it made for some exciting races.
I don't see any evidence that GC guys are presently tryng to gain significant time during flat stages. All they are doing is trying to keep from getting gapped. What has been hard in the first few stages this year is that the narrow roads have made it so the GC guys are trying to stay near the front to avoid crashes, but of course, so are those hunting stages. Not everybody can be on the front.
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Old 06-30-21, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Not everybody can be on the front.
This foils my plans in every race.
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Old 07-03-21, 09:47 AM
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Stage 8 GC recap

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Old 07-03-21, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post
In the big chain ring up the Col de la Colombiere, average grade of 8.5% with max grades of 11%. Going at 19-20kph.

The last time a cyclist was this dominant up a difficult climb like the Colombiere was L. Armstrong, M. Pantani and M. Indurain.

Very curious to know what doping program Pogacar is on.
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Old 07-04-21, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Jose R View Post
In the big chain ring up the Col de la Colombiere, average grade of 8.5% with max grades of 11%. Going at 19-20kph.

The last time a cyclist was this dominant up a difficult climb like the Colombiere was L. Armstrong, M. Pantani and M. Indurain.

Very curious to know what doping program Pogacar is on.
Do you base your allegation on the time difference between Pogacar and the rest of the field or the total time on the climb compared to the other riders you cite?
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Old 07-04-21, 03:15 PM
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I think Pogacar just broke the record for that mountain climb (or very close like seconds close) in a major rain storm compared to people like the Schleck's or Contador in their prime years ago.
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Old 07-05-21, 05:22 AM
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https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/de-...our-de-france/


De Gendt said that during stage 8 – which saw Tadej Pogačar blow the Tour's GC race apart after putting 3:20 into his rivals with a 32-kilometre solo attack – he had put out the kind of watts he'd normally see in a breakaway move. However, rather than battling with the protagonists of the break, including stage winner Dylan Teuns, he was way off the back of the race, finishing 28 minutes down on his compatriot. A 'changing of the guard' comes to every generation of sportsperson, but the 34-year-old said that he didn't expect one to come about so suddenly, and not while he is still putting out career-high power numbers, either.
"I have to draw my conclusions, finish my contract, and then it's time for something else," he said. "If they are better, then so be it. I'm 34 now and will be 36 at the end of my contract. I won't suddenly improve another five per cent unless I engage in 'wrong things', but I won't do that.
DeGendt is very publicly claiming there is doping in the peloton. It's hard to ignore the surprise breakout performances of a certain team this year.
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Old 07-05-21, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I'd like to see some data indicating trends in crashes.

I've watched way too many hours of race movies dating back decades, but it seems as though there were fewer serious crashes years ago.

I blame a lack of "race legs" and too much time spent on Zwift...
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Old 07-05-21, 11:45 PM
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I'd like to believe Pogacar is racing clean. But after reading that extensive interview Floyd Landis gave about 10 years ago, in which he explains how the pressure to dope is so overwhelming -- backed up by knowing and seeing almost everyone else is doing it and even joking about it -- that it was either dope or quit racing... it's easy to see how most pros could justify it to themselves and to the public. From their perspective it would seem utterly futile to race clean. Which is precisely what Jacques Anquetil said decades ago.
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Old 07-06-21, 12:04 AM
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if you don't believe every professional athlete in every professional sport isn't looking for an edge for that minuscule improvement that puts them over the top,
you're kidding yourself. i'll give you one guess where that improvement is coming from. hints...it's not better coaching, improved nutrition, devoted resting
or targeted training...

and yah...pogacar is making it look like basso did in the "extraterrestrial" 2006 giro. we all know how that ended...

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Old 07-06-21, 08:55 PM
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"A Guide to Doping's Grey Area"

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see thyroid medication on this list. I literally cannot get out of bed without it, after thyroid cancer kayoed my metabolism a few years ago. Back in 2018 a nurse practitioner with my *former* health care system told me to stop taking it. Like a fool I listened. Within a month I was in the ER, practically unable to walk. A friend had to pour me into the ER chair because my legs were like jello. ER doc was baffled why the NP told me discontinue the med and put me back on it immediately. But by then I'd lost any confidence in that health care system and switched (to the VA, which has generally been very good, and offers the option of seeing doctors outside the VA system).

Thyroid meds take awhile to build up enough to feel any effect. Some docs say up to 2-4 weeks. Usually I can feel some difference in a week. Because I also have osteopenia (Protip: Don't get old. It sucks.) my endocrinologists have been very cautious in my dosages. Too little and I'm a zombie. Too much and there's a risk of bone density loss, and symptoms often associated with bipolar disorder -- too much energy, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, etc.

My docs started me at 25 mcg years ago, barely enough to have any effect with a non-functional thyroid, but potentially enough to give an edge to a healthy person with normal thyroid function. And their lab work would still be within the high normal limit. The docs very gradually increased my dosage to, currently, 125 mcg. At 112.5 mcg (yeah, they really do come in increments that fine) I could still exercise, but I was sluggish and exhausted immediately after a workout, and slept 12 hours a day. My average speed on my usual cycling route declined from 17 mph to 14 mph. My jogging was already slow, but slowed even more from around 10 min/mile to 14', and my distances were declining from 5-7 miles to 2-3 miles. Within a week of being on the slightly higher dosage my average speed was close to normal again and I'm able to resume jogging 5-7 miles at modest speed.

If it'll have that effect on a 60something y/o, it's likely to offer a significant edge to a young and healthy athlete. Especially if their thyroid level is nearer to the low normal than high normal limit.

Although I didn't know that was part of the Floyd Landis cocktail. I have heard about it with some track runners, especially women over age 30 since they often have valid need for it.

And because levothyroxine dosages are measured in micrograms, with the pills all pretty much the same size from 25 mcg on up, there's plenty of room for "Oops, I didn't realize I was taking so much" excuses. Generic levothyroxine comes in tiny pills that are all vaguely different shades of grey. A color blind person, or someone who takes it early in the morning as directed, and leaves the lights off in the kitchen or bathroom, could easily overlook the slight differences between pinkish-grey, orangey-grey, blue-grey and grey-grey. I still have most of my old prescriptions, from 25 mcg up to 125 mcg, and if I forget to stash the old bottles in a separate place I can easily pop the wrong dosage when I'm bleary eyed in the early morning.
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Old 07-06-21, 09:02 PM
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don't forget the e bikes now being used. it does not always have to be your body cheating
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Old 07-06-21, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
"A Guide to Doping's Grey Area"

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see thyroid medication on this list. I literally cannot get out of bed without it, after thyroid cancer kayoed my metabolism a few years ago. Back in 2018 a nurse practitioner with my *former* health care system told me to stop taking it. Like a fool I listened. Within a month I was in the ER, practically unable to walk. A friend had to pour me into the ER chair because my legs were like jello. ER doc was baffled why the NP told me discontinue the med and put me back on it immediately. But by then I'd lost any confidence in that health care system and switched (to the VA, which has generally been very good, and offers the option of seeing doctors outside the VA system).

Thyroid meds take awhile to build up enough to feel any effect. Some docs say up to 2-4 weeks. Usually I can feel some difference in a week. Because I also have osteopenia (Protip: Don't get old. It sucks.) my endocrinologists have been very cautious in my dosages. Too little and I'm a zombie. Too much and there's a risk of bone density loss, and symptoms often associated with bipolar disorder -- too much energy, anxiety, irritability, insomnia, etc.

My docs started me at 25 mcg years ago, barely enough to have any effect with a non-functional thyroid, but potentially enough to give an edge to a healthy person with normal thyroid function. And their lab work would still be within the high normal limit. The docs very gradually increased my dosage to, currently, 125 mcg. At 112.5 mcg (yeah, they really do come in increments that fine) I could still exercise, but I was sluggish and exhausted immediately after a workout, and slept 12 hours a day. My average speed on my usual cycling route declined from 17 mph to 14 mph. My jogging was already slow, but slowed even more from around 10 min/mile to 14', and my distances were declining from 5-7 miles to 2-3 miles. Within a week of being on the slightly higher dosage my average speed was close to normal again and I'm able to resume jogging 5-7 miles at modest speed.

If it'll have that effect on a 60something y/o, it's likely to offer a significant edge to a young and healthy athlete. Especially if their thyroid level is nearer to the low normal than high normal limit.

Although I didn't know that was part of the Floyd Landis cocktail. I have heard about it with some track runners, especially women over age 30 since they often have valid need for it.

And because levothyroxine dosages are measured in micrograms, with the pills all pretty much the same size from 25 mcg on up, there's plenty of room for "Oops, I didn't realize I was taking so much" excuses. Generic levothyroxine comes in tiny pills that are all vaguely different shades of grey. A color blind person, or someone who takes it early in the morning as directed, and leaves the lights off in the kitchen or bathroom, could easily overlook the slight differences between pinkish-grey, orangey-grey, blue-grey and grey-grey. I still have most of my old prescriptions, from 25 mcg up to 125 mcg, and if I forget to stash the old bottles in a separate place I can easily pop the wrong dosage when I'm bleary eyed in the early morning.
Interesting back story, but I don't see any evidence that it applies to the peloton at present. If current cyclists are taking thyroid meds, they surely have to have TUEs. And no "oops" is going to help them if excesses are detected. "Oops" certainly didn't work for Contador. Unless there's an argument that they can be taking thyroid meds or other PEDs in ways that aren't detected by the blood tests and the biological passports, then this is a non-story.
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