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Cleaning a chain prior to first wax bath: OMS + Methyl Hydrate VS Citrus + water

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Cleaning a chain prior to first wax bath: OMS + Methyl Hydrate VS Citrus + water

Old 04-08-22, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
If you look at Zero Friction’s data, their comments about KMC don’t seem to have any evidence backing them up. They have some KMC chains that perform better than average, some within the average, and some below. Since they don’t report variance, we really can’t tell if the below average KMC performance is significant or not.
Yeah. It's frustrating to see them rule out all KMC chains, without presenting any data. And KMC makes a huge variety of chains from plain-jane to full-featured. Which ones did they have problem with? I run KMC chains on all my bikes so I have no way to compare for myself.
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Old 04-08-22, 01:43 PM
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I think nothing wears faster on the average bike than the chain, unless you run disc brakes, so that and so many options as to how to maintain generate all of this interest and lots of speculation. After skimming the 4 pages and admitting I have too many bikes to keep good records I have always liked KMC chains and appreciate cyccommute for his commitment to safety despite the push back, he will make a difference in the bikeforum community.
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Old 04-09-22, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
Why would MSW recommend such an elaborate cleaning method for their product if it doesn't have any benefit? Wouldn't they sell more product if they advised people to just buy a new chain and toss it in the wax?
I have voiced the same thing before but no one has ever answered this.
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Old 04-10-22, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
I have voiced the same thing before but no one has ever answered this.
Because they don’t know what will happen to their product if some other material is added to it. It’s about control of the performance of their product. I would bet that they have never really tested the need for their elaborate cleaning scheme with regard to what effect it has on chain durability or the efficacy of their lubricant.
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Old 04-10-22, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Because they don’t know what will happen to their product if some other material is added to it. It’s about control of the performance of their product. I would bet that they have never really tested the need for their elaborate cleaning scheme with regard to what effect it has on chain durability or the efficacy of their lubricant.
Sorry, cyccommute, the two underlined portions seem to be contradictory. How does one control the performance of one's product without some testing regarding the effect on the efficacy of the lubricant? I understand your point that perhaps 50% of the cleanliness gives you 90% of the performance, but it would behoove the wax maker to point this out so it can sell more wax.
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Old 04-10-22, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Yeah. It's frustrating to see them rule out all KMC chains, without presenting any data. And KMC makes a huge variety of chains from plain-jane to full-featured. Which ones did they have problem with? I run KMC chains on all my bikes so I have no way to compare for myself.
ZFC has a VERY bad habit of contaminating test data with speculation and assumptions, all of it extremely time consuming to sort out on account of the writers longwinded and convoluted writing style. Its not obvious what KMC chain he is referring to, but KMC have many different chains with various coatings or no coating at all. The cheapest X10s, that Ive been running for some time, looks completely uncoated and will rust in no time, if left wet and unlubed. They hot wax just fine.
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Old 04-10-22, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
Sorry, cyccommute, the two underlined portions seem to be contradictory. How does one control the performance of one's product without some testing regarding the effect on the efficacy of the lubricant? I understand your point that perhaps 50% of the cleanliness gives you 90% of the performance, but it would behoove the wax maker to point this out so it can sell more wax.
Not contradictory at all. The wax manufacturers want you to clean the chain before using their product so that you don’t introduce something into the wax that could change the characteristics they want. They don’t want you to “contaminate” their wax. That’s the reason they suggest extensive cleaning of a new chain.

Their cleaning protocol probably sprung fully formed from their minds without any testing of the needs of their steps. The most rudimentary tests would be to remove steps, test the chain after lubrication, remove (or replace) another step, test, etc. They just thought up a cleaning method and went with it. They really have no idea if it’s needed or not.
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Old 04-10-22, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
ZFC has a VERY bad habit of contaminating test data with speculation and assumptions, all of it extremely time consuming to sort out on account of the writers longwinded and convoluted writing style. Its not obvious what KMC chain he is referring to, but KMC have many different chains with various coatings or no coating at all. The cheapest X10s, that Ive been running for some time, looks completely uncoated and will rust in no time, if left wet and unlubed. They hot wax just fine.
Even as someone who suffers from long windedness, Zero Friction makes my posts seem like tweets. An editor would be of great benefit to him…and me
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Old 04-10-22, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
I did the same roughly 25 years ago. I, however, don’t use hot wax. I use solvent wax which is just as clean and much less fuss. Prior to that I was using Phil Wood Tenacious Oil which is second only to motor oil in messiness.

Solvent wax, by the way, doesn’t need to be reapplied as often as many people think. I get around 700 miles between applications. Even when touring in the eastern US, I didn’t have to apply more often than 700 miles. I did a 1500 mile tour around Lake Erie and applied it at the beginning of the tour, in the middle (after a long rainy day) and at the end.
"Solvent wax"...

I hot wax my chains with a mixture (~50:50) of paraffin and paraffin oil and am very happy with the results. The YT'er that I got into the process as a result of his videos (Oz Cycle) has a tip for touch-up application by mixing in another part of Xylene which of course dissolves the mixture and then evaporates after application. I haven't yet done this but am considering it for the inevitable 1st time I'm long from home and need to apply "something".

Would that 3-part mixture be considered a "solvent wax"?
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Old 04-10-22, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker
"Solvent wax"...

I hot wax my chains with a mixture (~50:50) of paraffin and paraffin oil and am very happy with the results. The YT'er that I got into the process as a result of his videos (Oz Cycle) has a tip for touch-up application by mixing in another part of Xylene which of course dissolves the mixture and then evaporates after application. I haven't yet done this but am considering it for the inevitable 1st time I'm long from home and need to apply "something".

Would that 3-part mixture be considered a "solvent wax"?
Yes, the touch up solution would be “solvent wax”. But making your own really isn’t worth the effort. Just buy White Lightning, Rock ‘n’ Roll, etc. There are some water based waxes out there that are a bit different in that they wouldn’t be good for a chain that has been previously waxed. Different materials.
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Old 04-10-22, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Yes, the touch up solution would be “solvent wax”. But making your own really isn’t worth the effort. Just buy White Lightning, Rock ‘n’ Roll, etc. There are some water based waxes out there that are a bit different in that they wouldn’t be good for a chain that has been previously waxed. Different materials.
Have you had any experience with Squirt wax and if so, what were your impressions?

I have an inkling that you have previously answered this question and the answer was "No", which then prompts me to ask if you are not curious to test out one of the more well known and hyped waxes?
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Old 04-10-22, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ColonelSanders
Have you had any experience with Squirt wax and if so, what were your impressions?

I have an inkling that you have previously answered this question and the answer was "No", which then prompts me to ask if you are not curious to test out one of the more well known and hyped waxes?
No, I haven’t tried it. It’s comparative new and I have a huge stock of other wax lubes (Rock ‘n’ Roll Red, Gold, and White Lightning) to work through. It takes quite a while for me to get through a bottle of chain lube. I bought a box of 12 bottles of White Lightning at Veloswap soon after it was introduced in the late 90s. I think I may have a bottle (or two) still hanging around. About 4 years ago, I decided to try the Rock ‘n’ Roll line and I still have most of 2 bottle still left over. It takes me a while to use up a lubricant and, since I get results I can live with, I don’t generally try new stuff.

I may get around to trying Squirt but I’m not in a hurry.
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Old 04-13-22, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Yes, the touch up solution would be “solvent wax”. But making your own really isn’t worth the effort. Just buy White Lightning, Rock ‘n’ Roll, etc.
I have used Rock N Roll Blue sparingly (i.e., a drop per roller then wipe) before and found that an Ultegra chain thus lubricated still gets dirty within 30 minutes of riding. That is why I went to immersion wax. Would using Rock N Roll as a touch up result in the same mess?

Originally Posted by Bearhawker
I hot wax my chains with a mixture (~50:50) of paraffin and paraffin oil and am very happy with the results.
I understand the concept of mixing paraffin oil into paraffin wax for immersion waxing to improve the pliability and longevity of the wax, but what is the minimum amount of paraffin oil to use to achieve this without losing the cleanliness advantage? Currently, I am using Gulf paraffin wax on its own, and may switch to Silca after I perfected my technique. An Ultegra chain with Gulf wax does get more chattery after two rides (50-70 miles) even though many state that a waxed chain should be good for at least 200 miles in dry weather.
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Old 04-13-22, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
I have used Rock N Roll Blue sparingly (i.e., a drop per roller then wipe) before and found that an Ultegra chain thus lubricated still gets dirty within 30 minutes of riding. That is why I went to immersion wax. Would using Rock N Roll as a touch up result in the same mess?
I can’t find an SDS for the Blue but I would suspect that it something like White Lightning Epic Ride. Epic Ride uses oil in addition to the wax which makes it a little stickier. Gold or Red would be better for a touch up to hot wax.


I understand the concept of mixing paraffin oil into paraffin wax for immersion waxing to improve the pliability and longevity of the wax, but what is the minimum amount of paraffin oil to use to achieve this without losing the cleanliness advantage? Currently, I am using Gulf paraffin wax on its own, and may switch to Silca after I perfected my technique. An Ultegra chain with Gulf wax does get more chattery after two rides (50-70 miles) even though many state that a waxed chain should be good for at least 200 miles in dry weather.
You will have to determine the amount of paraffin oil to soften the wax by experimentation. Start with 1 to 5% and see how soft the wax becomes as well as how sticky it gets.
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Old 04-14-22, 08:19 AM
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Paraffin oil is kerosene right?
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Old 04-14-22, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ColonelSanders
Have you had any experience with Squirt wax and if so, what were your impressions?
I have. It is a mixture of paraffin, slack wax (a paraffin precursor) and water. It results in a softer wax for the chain. I used it for awhile, but I did notice it tends to ball up and form globs that adhere to the drivetrain. If I were on tour or something like that, or I wasn't able to remove the chain easily, I would use it, but at home, just melting paraffin is cleaner and easier.
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Old 04-14-22, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kingston
Paraffin oil is kerosene right?
No.

I use a paraffin-based lamp oil. Here (Canada) lamp oil is generally one of two types; paraffin based or kerosene based.

My mixture is paraffin wax (like for canning, candles, etc) and paraffin-based lamp oil

From this site (https://www.dhr.nl/dhr-decorative/blogs/what-oil-use):

Lamp oil on the other hand has two types, one is a kerosene based, the other is a paraffin based lamp oil. The kerosene based lamp oil can be purified or not. The purified kerosene can be used in- and outdoors, the non purified kerosene is only suitable to use outdoors, for example in garden torches. Because of the toxic gasses it releases when burning the impurities in the kerosene. The paraffin based lamp oil is not advised by DHR. Paraffin, like kerosene, is an oil distillate. But paraffin isn’t very much liquid. To make it into an oil, solvents are added to make it more liquid.
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Old 04-14-22, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by kingston
Paraffin oil is kerosene right?
“England and America. Two nations separated by a common language.”

In the UK, “paraffin” is the common name for kerosene. To further muddy the waters, chemists sometimes refer to alkanes as “paraffins”. To even further muddy the waters, chemists (and others) also refer to alkanes with high molecular weight which are solid as paraffin, wax, and paraffin wax. And, if that wasn’t enough to make the waters almost solid mud, we refer to mineral oil (what is in baby oil) as paraffin oil. And there is an oil used for lamps that can be called “paraffin oil”. Jeeze, we are confusing.

In this context, however, “paraffin oil” most likely refers to either mineral oil or, perhaps, lamp oil. Both have higher molecular weights than kerosene. If I were doing this, I’d probably use mineral oil which is a little more viscous* than lamp oil. I might even use Vaseline which is a soft wax rather than a liquid.


*To confuse things even further, “mineral oil” is available in a very wide variety of viscosities from something similar to water (lamp oil) to something more like maple syrup (baby oil) to something resembling honey and even oils thicker than that.
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Old 04-15-22, 07:04 AM
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Hmmm - now I have to experiment with mineral oil and Vaseline...
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Old 04-15-22, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
You will have to determine the amount of paraffin oil to soften the wax by experimentation. Start with 1 to 5% and see how soft the wax becomes as well as how sticky it gets.
Is it safe to add paraffin oil to hot, fully melted paraffin wax in a hot Crock Pot?
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Old 04-15-22, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
“England and America. Two nations separated by a common language.”

In the UK, “paraffin” is the common name for kerosene. To further muddy the waters, chemists sometimes refer to alkanes as “paraffins”. To even further muddy the waters, chemists (and others) also refer to alkanes with high molecular weight which are solid as paraffin, wax, and paraffin wax. And, if that wasn’t enough to make the waters almost solid mud, we refer to mineral oil (what is in baby oil) as paraffin oil. And there is an oil used for lamps that can be called “paraffin oil”. Jeeze, we are confusing.

In this context, however, “paraffin oil” most likely refers to either mineral oil or, perhaps, lamp oil. Both have higher molecular weights than kerosene. If I were doing this, I’d probably use mineral oil which is a little more viscous* than lamp oil. I might even use Vaseline which is a soft wax rather than a liquid.


*To confuse things even further, “mineral oil” is available in a very wide variety of viscosities from something similar to water (lamp oil) to something more like maple syrup (baby oil) to something resembling honey and even oils thicker than that.
This is super confusing. But it seems that the indoor safe paraffin oil is what we are after and the outdoor only kerosene type is not.
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Old 04-15-22, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
This is super confusing. But it seems that the indoor safe paraffin oil is what we are after and the outdoor only kerosene type is not.
It's so confusing I'm going to ignore it and not add any kind of lamp oil or kerosene or whatever to the wax in my crock pot. It's not intuitive to me that adding liquid to melted liquid wax will make it more liquid, so it seems to solve a problem that I don't have.
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Old 04-15-22, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kingston
It's so confusing I'm going to ignore it and not add any kind of lamp oil or kerosene or whatever to the wax in my crock pot. It's not intuitive to me that adding liquid to melted liquid wax will make it more liquid, so it seems to solve a problem that I don't have.
The point of adding paraffin oil is not to make the paraffin wax more liquid when it is already melted in a Crock Pot. The reason to do so is to make the paraffin wax slightly softer and more pliable after it cools and solidifies, to reduce flaking off the chain as you are riding along.

I don't think you need to add anything if you are already using a bike chain wax, e.g., Silca or Molten Speed Wax.
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Old 04-15-22, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir
This is super confusing. But it seems that the indoor safe paraffin oil is what we are after and the outdoor only kerosene type is not.
At the temperature of melted wax, kerosene is too volatile and would form a vapor cloud over the wax. It has a flash point of about 100°F. If you are heating wax to 200°F, as propose above, that is significantly above the flash point of kerosene. Paraffin lamp oil has a flash point of 200°F. That’s still a bit low for a 200°F wax melt but better than kerosene. Mineral oil has a flash point of 440°F. Much safer. Vaseline has a similar flash point to mineral oil.

Originally Posted by kingston
It's so confusing I'm going to ignore it and not add any kind of lamp oil or kerosene or whatever to the wax in my crock pot. It's not intuitive to me that adding liquid to melted liquid wax will make it more liquid, so it seems to solve a problem that I don't have.
Almost all of us are familiar with liquid solutions. Sugar in water is a liquid solution. A cocktail is a liquid solution. Whether we know it or not, we are also very familiar with gas solutions. We breath it everyday, all day long. But we are far less familiar with solid solutions and how those change things like viscosity and other physical properties. Jelly (not jam) is a solid solution. Sugar, water, pectin and flavorings are mixed together under the right conditions and can be made into a homogeneous solid (or semisolid) mixture. Water have a low viscosity but add sugar to it and the viscosity goes up slightly. Add in some pectin and the whole mixture can be made to be almost solid.

Adding something to the melted wax won’t make the melted wax more liquid. It will make the hardened wax more liquid. Or, more specifically, it makes the wax less hard.
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Old 04-26-22, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
At the temperature of melted wax, kerosene is too volatile and would form a vapor cloud over the wax. It has a flash point of about 100°F. If you are heating wax to 200°F, as propose above, that is significantly above the flash point of kerosene. Paraffin lamp oil has a flash point of 200°F. That’s still a bit low for a 200°F wax melt but better than kerosene. Mineral oil has a flash point of 440°F. Much safer. Vaseline has a similar flash point to mineral oil.
Add a little bit of this (Mineral Oil - 16oz - Up & Up™ : Target) to melted Gulf wax?
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