Tourist in MSN

I don't.

A screen that big would only catch the big stuff. If you are drawing water from a fast flowing rapids, you might get water with particulates large enough to be captured by that screen. And any particulates that big are easily flushed out by a backflush.

Or in my case where I use a plastic "bucket" to scoop water, letting the water settle for 10 seconds would let the particulates settle to the bottom.

I have not used a coffee filter as a pre-screen, but a lot of people have. That makes more sense than a large screen.

The photo below was the water source for a campsite I planned to use on my recent backpacking trip, but when I saw the water source, I decided to keep hiking, instead I made camp at 7pm, well past when I usually have eaten supper.



The drought in Northern Minnesota turned this beaver pond into a mudhole.

staehpj1

One like in that picture, no. I have prefiltered at times depending on the water. I have used a tech tee shirt as a makeshift filter once in a pinch. I have let water settle in a container for a while. Most often I just try to capture it in a way that doesn't stir up particulates from the stream, lake, puddle bottom. I have been lucky enough to have not had much trouble with clogging other than an occasional back flush.

I do like the idea of using something like a coffee filter paper and a pour through arrangement for some places, but most places it is probably overkill.

BTW, I have used worse mud holes than the beaver pond in that picture, much worse. Not that I like to, but sometimes you can't be choosy.

fishboat

Women's nylons (one or more layers) works well as a prefilter, if needed. It weighs nothing, takes up zero space, dries fast....

balto charlie

I use and like the Sawyer filter. I never have had an issue, I always back wash, often store with alcohol in the filter, and flush before my trip.

I hate the fact fact that it can't handle freezing temps, if you forget to sleep with it on a cold adventure I wonder how much one damages the small tubes.

Tourist in MSN

Some plastics are degraded by some alcohols. You might want to verify that it is ok to do so with Sawyer. If your goal was to avoid any bacterial growth, a weak chlorine bleach mix with water might be less likely to damage the filter. I think you should ask Sawyer if that is a good idea, and if so what ratio of bleach to water. I simply leave chlorinated municipal water in my filter, I have not tried any precautions beyond that.

If freezing causes a crack, and if that crack becomes a preferred pathway for the water to go through it, the result is that the crack would likely allow pathogens to travel through it - you would essentially be drinking unfiltered water that you thought was filtered. I am assuming that the Sawyer would probably not show any evidence of freezing if it froze.

Rick

Has anybody used a prefilter and a SteriPen. Or both a Sawyer and a SteriPen.

djb

Ive used a steripen on a few trips, but never had to prefilter water luckily.
what do you want to know?

Tourist in MSN

I have a Steripen that I bought to use as a continency if I had to wild camp in Iceland, did not use it.

A Sawyer would likely take care of anything biological except viruses, the Steripen should take care of the viruses if you bought both.

You commented before that you wanted something that can cover viruses. Where are you going that you would need protection against viruses?

staehpj1

From what I read the filter isn't definitely unsafe after a freeze, but not to be trusted. So I'd be inclined to not worry too much about it if I had to use it for a bit until I could replace it. Maybe I am too cavalier.

The good news is they are cheap to replace at about $20 for the mini. if really worried you could carry a dry spare with only a small weight penalty at 2 ounces, not that I would.

djb

Tmsn, I hadn't watched the videos earlier, but it was interesting in the second one about the hot water soak and vinegar soak to loosen up stuff and with the vinegar, to dissolve scaly stuff. We've used vinegar to clean out scale from kitchen kettle or whatever and are surprised how effective it is (maybe scale isn't the right term)

cycco, I don't recall if you mentioned this time or in the past if you tried this post trip, including the long soaks they mention in the promo vid (but again, I completely get how after that experience, you'd be completely wary of these filters)

any way tourist, thanks again for the blurb and details
made for some interesting morning coffee reading material to go over again.

staehpj1

I am curious about the alcohol. Was that suggested by sawyer, something others do, or your own idea? What is the point? To inhibit bacterial growth? To keep from freezing?

I'd agree that a weak bleach solution would probably be the ticket for inhibiting bacterial growth and probably mildew as well. I on the other hand have been super careless in how I have used and stored mine other than to avoid freezing and to back flush and check that it was still working before each trip if it was stored for long and have I had no issues.

I always figured Cyccomute's issue was fairly rare based on the review sections in Amazon and REI. Both give a pretty high overall score and most of the low scores are related to the bags and some are general low flow complaints. Granted the REI reviews aren't a huge sampling, but they are from a community of generally like minded users. Amazon has a pretty large sampling, large enough to satisfy me as significant. For items like this I typically look at review those two places and make sure to read the negative reviews to see what they give as a reason. Sometimes the reviews are a caution on how to use an item or a note to use a different bag in the case of the filter. They might give you notice that you need to work out your technique for getting shallow water into the bag. In other cases i often I find I can take negative reviews with a grain of salt. I remember reading reviews that seemed to seriously complain for reasons such as a bird bath being defective because bees would drown in it.

Tourist in MSN

When I decided to buy a Sawyer two years ago, I looked at a few reviews, but the population of reviewers that I relied on was virtually EVERY backpacker I met on the Superior Hiking Trail that year.

My MSR pump was failing miserably, I think there is an internal leak or something. When I pushed the lever to push water through the filter, 90 percent of the water leaked back out through the inlet hose, there were enough bubbles in the stream you could see the reverse flow. This was my third ceramic filter, I know how to do the scouring pad thing to clean off the ceramic. My first ceramic is a Katadyn Combi. Great filter, but quite heavy. I used it many times in boundary waters, but much too heavy for backpacking. A Katadyn mini, it is very light weight but TOO small. The size of ceramic meant you needed to do a huge number of pumps to get a liter out of it, I only used that for a week long backpacking trip and decided it was too much work. The MSR is mid sized between those two Katadyn filters.

Because of my filter difficulties on that trip, I asked every backpacker what they were using, so it was pretty representative of the entire population of filter users on that trail two years ago.

This year when I backpacked up there I did not ask what others were using, but I did observe a few using a Platapus filter instead, thus my mention of it as another option to consider.

I take the opinions of those that I talked to much more highly than those that spend the time to comment on-line. Thus, although I can't cite anything in print from those brief "interviews", I trust them.

But, if a product ruins your trip, even if there might have been other factors, I can see where you may hold a strong bias for a very long time. I had and continue to have some strong biases against certain companies that sold something to me that did not function as claimed, but that is off topic.

staehpj1

Absolutely. I'd have probably given up on the product if I had the same experience. The thing is that I have too often seen guys who get burned and then make it their life's work to bad mouth a product. You know the ones I mean. They open an account just to bad mouth the product often a product that they misused. It is their first post when they join a forum. So I have made it a habit to ignore it when someone has a been burned and is on a crusade against a product if it doesn't seem like a wide spread issue to me, even if it is a guy like Cyccomute who I generally consider a reliable source of information and I have no doubt of the accuracy of his reporting of his experience. I just didn't find the problem to be common enough that I was worried about it other than I will now be more sure to test before heading out on a trip..

Tourist in MSN

I always test critical stuff first. Not testing the Sawyer however, it was recently used.

I am leaving soon for another trip. Decided to use a tent I have not used for five years, put it up a few days ago and giving it a hard look decided that the seams needed re-sealing. The tape on the taped seams on the fly were not quite falling off, but were close.

The liquid fuel stove passed the test, have not used that particular stove for several years.

cyccommute 

Nope because the filter didn’t make it home. I ditched it before my climb over the last pass on my trip. When I have brought this up in the past, other people have made the same suggestions but there was simply no reason for me to have to treat it with vinegar, The liter of water I filtered flowed over granite for the entirety of its half mile trip from the source so no carbonates were available to dissolve into the water. Vinegar will do nothing to the plastic of the hollow fiber.

It should be noted that all the things being said to do to Sawyer filters to improve flow weren’t mentioned when I first bought my filter (about 7 years ago). The Sawyer Squeeze was introduced in 2010. I bought mine around 2013. It failed me in 2014. A lot of the information about improving flow…even the issues with the flow…has come out since I ditched mine.

cyccommute 

If I were to use hollow fiber filters again…I won’t but let’s assume…I would test the crap out of it before I left. Lake Dillion (a major Denver water source) would see a significant drop in level due to my extensive testing.

I don’t test equipment before going on a trip. However, I don’t put anything away that isn’t in good working order. If something needs repair, I repair or replace it st the end of a trip before it goes into storage. In storage, nothing should happen to hard equipment that should cause it to need testing before use. Tents, sleeping bags, sleeping pads, stoves, water filters, etc. aren’t items that degrade just sitting around as long as they are reasonable protected. All of my camping equipment is stored in plastic bins in a cool, dry basement.

I also have to say that the Sawyer Squeeze is about the only piece of outdoor equipment that has failed me. Even my bicycles haven’t had any serious problems while on tour.

Tourist in MSN

A few days ago when I found the taped seam on my tent fly was coming loose after five years in storage, that is not the first time that a taped seam came off of something I use. Over time in storage the adhesive went bad or something like that.

A few years ago, I had not used my 111B stove for several years, decided to bring it on a trip. And found in my pre-trip test that the gasket on the tank lid no longer held pressure. Good thing I tested it. I bought that stove in the early 70s, looks like those tank lid gaskets can't be relied on to last hallf a century.

Some things go bad with age, not much you can do about that.

Some hiking boots with injection molded foam cushioning above the sole are starting to fail after over a decade, the plastic is starting to degrade. I chucked a pair last winter, and added boots to my list of things to test before I go on a trip. Another thing that warrants testing before use.
https://blog.hanwag.de/en/hydrolyse-der-zwischensohle/

But, if no testing works for you, great.

djb

I have to say, the one thing that I've found very disappointing is the whole tent fly (waterproof outer section) getting all ultra "sticking to itself" and general sticky/grossness thing from just sitting rolled up in its own bag, sort of situation.
Haveseen it with a number of brands, MSR, North Face.

cyccommute 

In 40 years of using tents, I’ve never had a seam that was taped to begin with much less have a seam fail. I’ve had a number of tents and not all of them were of very high quality.

Well I don’t use antiques on tour but I also wouldn’t expect something that used a gasket on a part that is opened and closed constantly to last 40 years. That’s less a “it degraded in storage” problem than a case of needing replacement just because of use.

Yea, you can. It’s called maintenance. But, generally, if you put an item that is in good working order into short term storage (i.e. less than 5 years), you can expect it to work as well as when you put it away.

Just to wrap my head around this, are you saying that every item you take on tour you test before you go use it? How do you test all the different items you use before going on tour? All of my equipment is put away in good order and stored where degradation will be minimal (cool and dry while also protected from shelf wear in containers). I “tested” the equipment before storage so there really is no need to “test” it again.

And, to drag this back to the discussion above, the Sawyer filter was new. It had seen minimal use and had been stored according to their instructions and had been in storage for about a year. It shouldn’t have needed “testing” nor should I have (then) suspected that there would be a problem with the next use. Nothing else I’ve owned for camping and touring has required testing before using it. I’ve never had anything else fail to work for me even after longer storage.

Now I know better but, because of my experience and because of other experiences I’ve read since then (usually because of threads like this), I would test the crap out of one if I were stupid enough to buy another. But I’m not that dumb.

staehpj1

I have (rarely) had gear go bad while in storage. The waterproof coating in particular went bad on a few items. They were never put away wet, but the coating broke down. It flaked off and peeled in sheets, It had a terrible vomit smell. It was in a heated, but not air conditioned home. It happened with a Eureka Sentinal tent and some rain gear. Since then I tend to check any gear that has been stored for any length of time before heading out with it.

Tourist in MSN

I choose not to respond, I have better things to do.

staehpj1

Given that I am apparently in Cyccommute's words " stupid enough to buy another" and "that dumb" I wonder about the gravity setup as sold by Sawyer. It is maybe a little heavier than necessary (8.8 ounces) for UL touring and backpacking, but I figured I'd order one for our disaster "go bag" and see how it was. I may or may not ever use it for touring or backpacking.

The dirty water bag is always the issue. Weight vs ease of filling taking in to account getting water from shallow sources where you don't want to disturb the bottom can involve a tricky set of compromises. The large fill opening is nice, but you still need some kind of cup of scoop. Some places just about anything works, but there are those times where it is extremely shallow with a silty bottom that you don't want to stir up. I recall a few times where careful scooping in less than an inch of depth was necessary. It can be tedious, but when you need water you need water.

Anyone here use their gravity setup as sold?

cyccommute 

Perhaps a bad choice of words. They weren’t meant to apply to anyone other than myself. If I offended, I apologize.

That said, I was burned very badly by my experience with Sawyer. I don’t generally allow something that fails me a second chance. I’m also not being particularly vindictive towards Sawyer. I jump into these conversations about hollow fiber filters to caution people that this type of filter can have some issues. I would also agree, now, that you should test your filter before you go out. On the other hand, I have no equipment that I use regularly in camping or bike touring or bikepacking that I feel needs to be tested before I set off on a trip.

staehpj1

Glad the offense wasn't intended.

FWIW, I think a caution is in order, but personally think you overstate the issue. The product generally gets good reviews even when you look on venues where the number of reviews is high enough to be significant. As far as testing. I did that before I heard of this problem. For all gear items I generally at least unpack each item and inspect and repack it. Items like stoves or filters get a quick test run if it has been long at all since last use. Other items may just get a visual inspection.

BTW, on the comments about "antique" gear and maintenance... I consider some of the old stuff to still be more reliable than new gear. I trust the old SVEA more than my new Whisperlite when it comes down to it. I expect that there is a good chance my great great great grand children could dig the SVEA out of storage and it would work fine, possibly after replacing the gasket in the cap, but maybe without any repair. I'd be surprised if the same were true for the whisperlite.

Tourist in MSN

I just got home from a canoe trip, will post an update on filter later. But since I am the OP on this thread, am now responding to recent comments.

No, but I have read that Sawyer bladders have failed. That is why I bought Evernew bladders when I assembled various parts to build my gravity system.

I did hear from someone that he had an Evernew bladder fail, I will elaborate later.

I see you have a new photo.


I understand someone having a bias against something that failed. But knowing why something failed is a worthwhile endeavor. Just saying it is bad and chucking it, then badmouthing it for years later does not really explain the problem. Or if there was user error, perhaps there was no problem.

In general, if something does not work for me, unless someone with expertise sees the flaw that caused the problem, I do not bad mouth it. I have on this forum on several occasions badmouthed several products, my Surly LHT that Surly refused to warranty, I put that frame into the metal recycling bin as I did not want to sell it to anyone else or donate it to a charity to suffer the problems of that bike. But after a frame builder explained to me how the welder had their heat settings all wrong for the welding on the bottom bracket shell weakened the entire frame, I see nothing wrong with bad mouthing a product that the manufacturer should have warrantied. In this case, a frame builder with welding expertise understood why the frame was problematic. That problem cost me over $400 USD and a lot of hours of frustration.

My "antique" Optimus 111B, I bought that new in the early 1970s. It worked great on my recent canoe trip. It is a bit heavy for bike touring and way too heavy for backpacking. But canoeing, I try to avoid hills for obvious reasons, then the weight is not a reason to leave it home. It was so beat up that I repainted it a couple years ago, now looks almost like new, although it is missing the factory decal.

Six of us went snowshoeing in Northern Minnesota on a winter camping trip in the late 1970s. We brought three stoves, the 111B, a Svea, and a new fangled contraption made by some company called MSR. In the late 1970s, weather forecasting was a lot more of a roll of the dice than today. Thus, we did not expect that the weather would turn sour and it getting down to minus 36 (according to the thermometer we had along) was a real surprise. My "antique" stove worked great, once we could light the puddle of gas to warm the burner head. The temperature was colder than the Coleman fuel flashpoint, so we had to use paper matches as a wick in the fuel to get the match flame to warm up the puddle of gas to light. The Svea would only work if the fuel tank was kept warm, which was difficult enough that we pretty much gave up on it. But that was not a flaw of the Svea, it was never envisioned as a cold weather stove since it lacked a pump. And the MSR that was supposed to be the newest expedition stove put out no more than a candle flame, we gave up on that to. Thus, the "antique" 111B was our only functioning stove for the trip for six people.

But, back in those days, if you wanted to stay alive in a bad snap of cold weather, you used the 111B, the 111 which was the kerosene version, the Pheobus 625, or one of the Primus kerosene stoves.

I could badmouth the MSR stove that failed miserably, but I choose not to since I can't really say why it failed. The owner of that stove worked in a camp shop and often repaired stoves, he could not make it work either. After that experience I have only bought Primus and Optimus liquid fuel stoves, have never bought a MSR liquid fuel stove, And the owner of that MSR stove that failed, the next stove he bought was an Optimus 22B, a two burner version of the 111B. Maybe that is why when you look on Ebay, those "antique" 111B stoves sell for hundreds. I let my bias drive my own preferences, but I do not badmouth MSR because of that experience. I did have a problem with an Optimus Nova, Optimus replaced some parts and now it works well.

I could have used a butane mix type stove when I backpacked the Grand Canyon seven years ago, but brought my Svea instead. It is a reliable stove as long as you use it where it was intended to be used. And it was not that much heavier to carry than a butane mix stove would have been. I used a Svea a lot in the 70s when backpacking in Colorado, Montana and Wyoming, great stove.