gauvins

Yet, an interesting point. I am not familiar with testing theory, but would guess that a test is meant to learn something about failure. And that it may not be necessary to conduct a destructive test in order to learn enough in order to plan.

​​​​​​Totally agree. As I have been successful so far in avoiding this type of unpleasantness, I just want to make sure that I can manage several consecutive rainy days without being totally miserable, perhaps to the point of wishing to end a trip prematurely.

Riding 8 hrs in the rain and setting up camp at the end of the day, rain still unabated, is not the same as returning home or sleeping in a motel.

Not clear to me where to draw the line between unpleasant and life threatening. I doubt that rain in summer can be life threatening, but (severe) hypothermia is still a possibility (which is why we travel with a shelter and a decent amount of clothes, and why lost hikers are in danger).

So I guess that the plan is just to make sure that water infiltration is limited, such that it is not likely to induce hypothermia. If the shell performs superbly, to the point where midlayers remain reasonably dry, then I guess that riding in the rain forever is doable. Otherwise, one should perhaps wait for a sunny day, or a civilized stopover, before resuming travel.

There is probably good information out there discussing these scenarios (certainly has to do with the temperature - near freezing is different from tropical moonsoon). But a quick Google search yielded little more than "good rain gear, psych yourself, reward yourself with a treat at the end of the day" kind of advice. In addition to the more general "cotton kills"

staehpj1

I pretty much figure getting wet is inevitable, keeping layers dry is just not possible IME. They are either wet from sweat or from rain. I was a whitewater boater long before I toured so I learned to choose layers that performed even when wet and chose a shell that keeps the wind off. Those winter and early spring paddling trips were wet and cold so I learned to deal with wet and cold. That said, if I were to start to show early signs of hypothermia, I'd be looking for shelter and warmth, a room maybe or if not that just a dry place to get into the sleeping bag. On tour you generally ought to be able to avoid that but, things can happen.

My favorite middle layers for touring were actually designed for kayaking. Most of them are stuff left over from decades ago so I can't specify current models. They don't hold much moisture and work well even when wet as long as you keep the wind off..

All that said I generally try to choose trip times and locations where the weather will be nice. On a coast to coast trip obviously there will be some bad weather. Also since I try (mostly unsuccessfully ) to avoid hot weather I deal with a lot of cold nights and cool days. Still I have been pretty lucky in that I have not really had terribly many rainy spells and when I have they were generally not all that long. Don't get me wrong. I have had some deluges and some cold, windy, rainy days. I have been through some storms and even the occasional hail storm. But, I have never had to hole up for a long spell.

I tend to get restless pretty quickly so even when it is raining hard I usually break camp by mid morning and head out.

gauvins

Yes yes, absolutely. The reason why I am looking left and right is that finding dry shelter will not be an option for several days in a row. Not even obvious that I'll be able to wait until the weather forecast is good.

One question -- my understanding is that things are OK if I can set up camp, have a dry sleeping bag and dry change of clothes. Put my wet clothes away, cook a meal and I am all set. Thing is that I won't carry several changes of clothes. Which means that on day 2, it is either starting dry and ending the day in a motel or such; store the dry clothes in my dry bag, put the wet ones (and ask myself what's wrong with my life); or call is a zero day and catch up on my reading list...

In anticipation of the dreaded "starting a day in cold and wet clothes from yesterday", do you have experiences/advice to share?

(wrt kayaking mid layers -- I have a capilene 3D hoody, which should do its thing.)

staehpj1

I just try to get stuff as wrung out as best I can and put it on damp. If I can get clothes warm in my bivy so much the better. You really need to feel comfortable with what clothes you are using and the techniques you are using though. That comes with experience I pack pretty minimal, but I only came to trust the stuff I carry after gaining some experience with it. If in doubt taking some extra pieces of clothing may be prudent particularly if there will be no reasonable bail out and conditions are likely to be hostile. In the end it is a judgement call where you draw the line.

It is a good idea to think of you packing list as an evolving thing, Keep a spread sheet and go over it based on what works for you over time. Keep track of all choices and weigh the pros and cons. You won't get to your ideal list all in one go. Mine took me years and it is still evolving (and probably would not work well for someone else).

andrewclaus

I've found it's sometimes possible to dry my wet clothing by sleeping on them, under my CCF pad. You'll want good shelter ventilation for this.

I've often noticed after I pitch camp on wet ground, there's a dry patch under my torso when I strike camp. Enough body heat transfers to the earth. It works on clothing.

In some conditions, with low humidity and good ventilation, I'll wear small damp clothing items to sleep, but not more than hat, gloves, socks, or a light jersey. I use down sleeping bags and I'm anal about keeping them dry.

djb

really good advice from stae and andrew,
what I've found over the years from doing cross country skiing and bicycle commuting in all kinds of temperatures is that as stae said, you want to be comfortable and know how certain clothing pieces work from experience. I pretty much know that even if I am all damp, at least my base layers will keep me warm and will eventually dry out from my body heat.
I too have dried out some wool socks keeping them on my body inside my sleeping bag, better that than leaving them out in cold damp air outside or even in your tent.

basically gauvins, as you say, you are planning for the worst case scenario, which is good to at least be prepared for. I hope you dont have to set up in the rain after being in rain all day, but at least with some good base layers and fleece or wool, even when damp it will keep insulating you so you wont be too cold.
I have a pair of wool "knee warmers" , which go above my knee and down to above my ankles, and they work great for keeping my leg muscles warm in blah damp weather. They work a lot better than some of my polypro long underwear----but again, its best for you to figure out what work for you , for a given temperature, and what little things help you feel ok (like a toque or whatever)

I really do feel that my commuting really has taught me what clothes work for a given temp. and so its a lot easier for me to be sure of what will keep me in my comfort zone for diff temps. Kind of like what Stae said, I've got it down to a relatively small group of clothes and accessories like toques, neck fleece buff, etc that I know work in various combinations.

maybe because I'm an old skinny guy, but I also find that in cool, wet conditions, I need to eat more and having a dried soup packet or whatever feels really good if you've been damp for a long time, and our bodies burn more energy anyway in the cold (skiing always does this to me too).
So keep this in mind--have more than enough food, and figure out the little clothing details that keep you from feeling chilled.
and put more clothes on when you start to feel cold--listen to your body. As I've gotten older I'm a lot better (smarter?) listening to my body about stuff like that, eating, feeling cold etc.

mev

[QUOTE=gauvins;22027812
In anticipation of the dreaded "starting a day in cold and wet clothes from yesterday", do you have experiences/advice to share?
[/QUOTE]

More experience than advice...
First day leaving Prudhoe Bay it was just around freezing with a wet precipitation coming down. It wasn't snowing/raining particularly hard and I had following for the wet: shower cap, booties, mittens. There was a somewhat cold wind, but it was more of a tailwind than headwind. So pretty much it was a case of striking the balance to avoid over-heating (i.e. sweating) too much while also still staying somewhat dry.


Through the day, I stayed fairly warm, though there was snow stuck on outside of my panniers when I arrive at my camping location, outside the (locked) restroom. Staying warm now is doubly important because I was no longer generating as much heat as when I was moving.

I had a reasonable sleeping bag and also brought in some damp clothes into the sleeping back to also help dry them some. Fortunately, I also had some dry ones to put on otherwise.

The next morning, the storm largely passed, but it had left some snow behind.


So what helped me most was probably several things:
1. Having some basics like a shower cap to keep worst wet from coming in
2. Ability to keep moving as part of keeping warm
3. Warm sleeping bag and dry clothes to change as I stopped moving and generating as much heat
4. Ability to at least make the wet clothes slightly less damp overnight
5. Sunshine the next morning, to help an otherwise white world.

gauvins

Good point. Cold rain certainly drains a lot of calories (as the body tries to keep it's core temperature). My regular diet is ramen-heavy. Agree that it makes for feel-good meals.

gauvins

Interesting. I gather, looking at the pictures, that mozzies weren't an item at the beginning, but (you've probably been through Whitehorse) certainly wanted to feast on your blood at some point. DEET was enough? (I've asked in another thread, where I've learned about Permethrin -- not allowed on humans in Canada, but I will nonetheless spray some clothes with the legal 0.25% instead of the usual 0.5%, hoping that it'll reduce the size of the crowd).

mev

For that trip, mosquitoes were not an issue in first few days. It was too cold. I did have places later in the Dalton and down the Alaska Highway where there were localized areas with a fair number of mosquitoes. I was mostly covered up, but occasional DEET was otherwise enough or just deciding to get into my tent after cooking dinner. I had a worse mosquito issue on the Dempster (same latitudes but ending in Inuvik NWT, at least when I cycled it) on a different trip.

Doug64

Even though it is still raining in the morning, having a dry set of clothes to put on is a great way to start the day. I usually carry 2 sets of bike gear, and some of my non-bike clothes could be used for riding. If nothing else having a dry pair of socks to put on the in morning really helps. I don't skimp on socks. For long tours there are usually 4 pairs of socks in my panniers. At least 2 of those pairs are wool.

On one 3-month tour we encountered rain on 35 of the days. We usually rode in the rain, but sometimes getting some shelter is a good alternative. For scattered, small cells we would find shelter, and just wait it out.

djb

Drinking my coffee, this thought did cross my mind---if it makes you feel any better, on nearly all my trips, I've been pretty lucky with rain.
Absolutely, the time of year and place are big factors, and I hope that you will have a bit of possibility to watch the weather trends and maybe be able to delay a few days if needed.

when we biked across France three summers ago, online in early June we had been following the very very wet and cold weather in north western France weeks before our trip, but were confident that after so many weeks of bad weather, that it would clear. In our case, we were arriving later in June, and it was an unusual early wet June for that time of year--we had booked tickets anyway so couldn't change things, but at least we were closely following the weather patterns.

also, the great thing with modern base layers and fleece, is that you only need a short time of sun and wind to dry out pretty well, and your rain gear will work well enough to keep things from being totally soaked.

Oh, as tourist showed in his photo of his mud covered rain booties, even when it's not raining, using booties is really nice to not have totally dirty shoes and socks. I often keep mine on until things dry up a bit too avoid having to clean more.

andrewclaus

And the colder and wetter it is, the harder that is to do, and it becomes even more important.

The body's reaction to any extreme condition depends not only on nutrition, but hydration, state of rest, general fitness, not to mention state of mind. That goes for cold, heat, overexertion, trauma--all stuff that happens on bike tours.

Pratt

Recycling?

gauvins

Actually, found some yesterday, in a municipal park.

[but since then I've pulled the trigger on thin neoprene socks, so I guess I'll not mess with the dog-poop supplies]

elcruxio

Like others have mentioned it really depends on the temperature but one may need to factor in changin conditions. Where I live just relying on the weather history worst case may not work out since sometimes interesting weather happens. I don't know how common this phenomenom is globally, but it pretty much happens every summer when a warm summer day can rapidly in under an hour turn into almost winter like. Something to do with a cold layer of air pushing down rain so you get both freezing heavy rainfall and cold air which can drop temperatures drastically. Also a warm summer rain is unheard of here. All rains are cold.

Hence when on tour I use sandals and carry a full goretex rainkit with waterproof socks and waterproof gloves. Not a particulary heavy investment in overall weight but will keep me warm even in the worst torrential rain.
There is always the adage that with rain gear one gets wet anyways either from sweat or from the rain. But there is a key difference. With raingear you may sweat quite a bit, but you'll be warm because you only need to warm up the sweat once (this is a gross oversimplification). With rain you need to keep warming up the constantly accumulating rain. And that is where the overall conditions come into play. Cold rain and warm weather may allow one to stay warm enough but cold rain and cold weather leads to bad outcomes.
Also modern goretex or other good quality shells aren't even that sweaty. They are expensive though. But my Gore-tex active jacket is now 6 years old and going strong. It's been used in cycling, hiking, tree climbing and still as waterproof as it was new.

I try to go overkill with my foot warmth since when cycling the foot doesn't really do anything and thus gets cold quickly. It's not necessarily even a circulation thing since I've done long walks (10+ km) in -30C with booths that have no insulation and a 3mm sole thickness and I was completely fine since the feet were working all the time. But in cycling I just lost feeling in my toes when wearing my Ragnaröks in 3 degrees celsius. Ok, it was snowing and there was a 16m/s headwind but still, my feet get cold easily when cycling. And that seems to be fairly common what I've discussed it with other arctic cyclists. My hands are fine though. Even in -20C I can cycle with a thin 5-finger shell glove and super thin merino liner gloves. I have a pair of lobster gloves I tried to use in -36C once but they were just too hot.

djb

certainly I have had lots of situations where summer rainstorms can turn rather cold suddenly, and this is why I put the importance of having with me the helmet cover, fleece neck buff, some polypro gloves+dishwashing gloves and base layers top and bottom that will work well when damp for keeping me from getting chilled.

gauvins, I always remember on one of the Velo Quebec "Grand Tours" that my wife and I did, beginning of August (so nice and hot) and on the first day a big thunderstorm came and the temperatures dropped from sunny and hot down to pouring rain, wind and below 20c, and so many people had not brought rain gear, mostly the roadies, and there were loads and loads of really miserable frozen riders standing around under any shelter they could find, waiting for the support vans with trailers for bikes to pick them up (camions d"abandon).

it was a classic weird august rain storm, warm at first, but then getting colder and colder. I started first with the usual rain jacket, pants and rain booties, but ended up stopping and putting on helmet cover and then finally with frozen hands, putting on the polypro gloves inside the dishwashing gloves.
It was also unusually long lasting, and the rain continued on all afternoon and evening, which is not normally the case with our "summer storms".
Usually in our summer around here, you'll get a big storm, then it will clear and the sun will come out again, and you can warm up and even dry out stuff hanging it in the sun when you take a snack break.

Trevtassie

Waterproof socks have a real technical fault, the big hole in the top where your foot goes in. Unless you wear rainpants that come down over the top of 'em they will inevitably fill up with water. And really you can only wear rain paints when it's really cold, otherwise even the most breathable will see sweat filling your socks up instead of rain. Where they are useful is if your shoes are wet in camp, but then if it's cold you can't fit enough warm sock under them to keep your feet warm. Better off with a couple of quality plastic bags. takes up way less room in your panniers and your shoes and does the same job. My partner and I discussed making sock shaped plastic bags for bike tourers but figured that most would be too tight to cough up any bux for what are effectively reasonable shopping bags.
As for hands: Gore Windstopper or the equivalent Chinese knock offs from ebay, and then thin merino thermal gloves under if it's really cold. Neither waterproof, but the Windstopper really helps and the knock offs are only a few dollars on ebay.

djb

re sweating with raingear on-- I suspect that because I am slight, I have a much easier time than others. I'm not a big sweater generally (and deal with hot riding well) and I can wear my rain gear fairly comfortably up to probably more warmer temperatures than others--but it probably helps that my rain pants breathe reasonably well, and my rain jacket has good venting.

but of course, at a certain point its just easier and more comfortable to take the rain gear off, or just have the jacket on unzipped, or whatever--entirely depending on the situation , and the moment in fact, as there are sometimes "on/off, on/off " rain gear days, but c'est la vie, and you go with what is most comfortable for you, there is no clear answer here.

staehpj1

Yes, everyone is different. Also, lots of factors come into play, body type, weight, tendency to sweat or not, choice of fabric, design of garments (vents etc.), status of zippers, how much you are exerting when you ride and so on. I find that I am usually wet with sweat when riding regardless of what I wear. I am not thin, but I recall that being true decades ago when I was even though I tended to not wear much for the conditions. I tend to work fairly hard when riding. If I want to take it easy I do that by taking more and longer breaks to hang out in towns, chatting up people, or seeing the sights rather than by slowing down.

In my very lean racing days I'd have to immediately get to some warm clothing for cool down on cold days because I'd be sweating like crazy but immediately be chilled when stopped or cooling down. These days I am fat enough that isn't much of an issue. If I had toured or even raced in the western mountains in my thinnest days I'd have frozen on the long multi mile descents (I sometimes tend to even now). I guess I did some long MTB race descents back then where zipping and unzipping a shell sufficed without getting super chilled.

gauvins

Thanks elcruxio , djb and Trevtassie for chipping in. It consolidates my understanding (that wet isn't the problem, but it is rather "cold" that is the issue). As you may have read above, I've settled on 0.5mm neoprene socks (by design, insulating rather than waterproof) and DCF mitt shells (waterproof) over capilene liners. I also have an OR Helium outer shell (jacket+pants) and a couple of mid and base layers.

I'd probably have purchased DCF booties had they been available, because their packed size would have been much smaller than neoprene, but Trevtassie might be spot on when he suggests that they'd likely fill with water over time. I'd be tempted to test a DCF design with an elastic band at calf height and draining hole under the heel, which would help reduce water ingress and act as a wind barrier.

djb

honesty gauvins, from years wearing my rain booties in the rain commuting and touring, if your rain pants are long enough to go over the top of your rain booties, rain just doesnt go into the top of the rain booties and down your leg.
Its not a problem.

Also, my rain booties are open more or less at the bottom, so wet can run out even if some gets in, which generally it doesnt because my rain pants go over the top of the booties.

I also put one of those yellow velcro pant velcro things on my right ankle to keep my rain pants from getting into the chain, not too tight, and it all works.

Tourist in MSN

After your trip, let us know how those neoprene socks work out. I bought a pair for my Iceland trip in case I needed to ford a stream, the plan was to wear with sandals. Then put regular socks and bike shoes on again afterwards. But the streams I forded had enough dry rocks to step on, never wore them. But mine are 3mm thick, made from the same material that scuba divers use. I do not think i have heard of any that were only 0.5mm thick.


Often in summer riding near home, I might bring a rain jacket if the chance of rain is a concern, but otherwise skip everything else. That said, in rain I always wear the rain jacket while it is raining, even if it is warm. When the rain stops and the cold air starts to evaporate the water in my clothing, evaporative cooling can be quite chilling. The rain jacket can slow that evaporative cooling. In other words, on a warm day I do not use the rain jacket so much to stay dry but instead to control how fast I would get chilled after the rain stops.

***

This thread on rain gear is reminding me of some of the rainy trips that I have taken. Photo is eight years old, a friend that I have often toured with has always tried to pack as light as he can. But, this trip was the last tour he did with no fenders, he used fenders on every trip after that.

Tourist in MSN

Yeah, and since rain pants often are quite roomy on the bottom, you need a good strap, preferably one that is pretty wide. Repeated my photo from post 13 here:



When not wearing my rain pants, I roll them up and use the strap to keep that roll all rolled up.

Doug64

I bought a new bike off Craig's List, and wanted to try it out before I decided if I would to keep it, so I did not put fenders on it. My wife and I went on an over night ride, and we hit heavy rain on the way home.

My wife's bike has fenders and a good mud flap. This was from about 6 hours of riding on pavement. Our legs side-by-side.