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upright gravelish steel bike rec?

Old 05-23-22, 09:56 AM
  #26  
Craptacular8
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Steel Suggestio

Originally Posted by wbusby1
Looking for advice on purchasing a bike (not sure if there is a preferred format for this or if this is wrong location?)

Looking for:
-Upright gravel/all-road/adventure bike.
- I'm 5'11, 165 lbs, aiming for Stack 632, Reach 383, happy to buy a different stem to make this work.
-max stand-over ~850mm
-Steel frame
-Mostly riding paved but would like option to hit gravel.
-mostly commuting & running errands & adventuring want to go back to not having a car! 2-25miles daily. no racing. possibility for light-touring would be nice.
-Prefer not to have any electronic shifters or other overly techie parts.
-Prefer to keep under $3K but really I don't have an upper end budget but I don't want a bike that I overly worry about getting stolen or scratched up.
-Would like something I can find/purchase now or in next few months as my current bike is terrible for me and the weather is getting nice!

Background: I've been cycling exclusively on a fixed road bike (wabi special) for last 8 years. Last year I moved to PNW and now my knees are hurting cuz I have patellar tendonitis and there are hills here. I was all set on a Salsa Vaya 59.5cm but haven't found one in 2 months & LBSs say "possibly in June?" to "unlikely this year", now I'm despairing / open to other options/ideas. A trusted friend in the industry says Salsa Vaya is awesome, wait for it, Random people on the internet say Vaya is outdated and overrated now and there are better options these days...
Test road a salsa Fargo, felt too slow and overkill for mostly pavement. Test road a kona rove and it felt clunky/meh. Test road an all-city straight bar bike and hated the handlebars and it felt meh. I'm thinking of riding mostly 35mm ish tires but am not opposed to owning two wheelsets for different terrain types.
There's a 2016 Salsa Vaya x9 in 57cm 125miles away from me on craigslist for 1200. I could maybe make this work with a long, angled stem? Seems pricey for a compromise esp considering the 125miles to check it out.
ns

I'd suggest using Bike Insights to compare models to your desired Salsa Vaya. From personal experience, I would think the All-City Spacehorse, or Kona Sutra would be very similar. No idea on availability.
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Old 05-23-22, 10:07 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by csport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Modeling fit from just the bike geometry is tricky because most geometry specs don't give you all the information you need to show your contact points (butt, hands, and feet) with the bike.
Is it true that if you want the posture prescribed by the fitter, the position of the seat and the handlebars w.r.t. the bottom bracket are determined by that? Saddle position can be regulated by changing its height and setback. Assuming that we have the same handlebars and the stem, the position of the handlebars cat be adjusted by adding/removing spacers. Then stack and reach are all you need to model the fit.
Of course there are more subtle things like weight distribution, chainstay length, head tube angle, fork rake etc.

Huh? I'm not understanding what you wrote there.

However, from the perspective of when stack and reach are discussed, as in this thread, most of us will assume it's frame stack and frame reach. If it's any other kind of stack or reach then that needs to be specified.

Last edited by Iride01; 05-23-22 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 05-23-22, 11:45 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Huh? I'm not understanding what you wrote there.

However, from the perspective of when stack and reach are discussed, as in this thread, most of us will assume it's frame stack and frame reach. If it's any other kind of stack or reach then that needs to be specified.
I wrote that the fit is determined by the relative position of the butt, bottom bracket and hands.

The position of the saddle w.r.t. the bottom bracket can be adjusted by moving the seatpost in/out and moving the saddle forward/backward.

What is left is the position of the hands w.r.t. the bottom bracket, and that cat be modeled using frame stack and frame reach.
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Old 05-23-22, 02:25 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by csport
I wrote that the fit is determined by the relative position of the butt, bottom bracket and hands.
Yep, I pretty much said the same thing. So is this an argument about who said it first? <grin>

The position of the saddle w.r.t. the bottom bracket can be adjusted by moving the seatpost in/out and moving the saddle forward/backward.
Well on a road bike geometry, the proper saddle height only has a range of about 1 inch. So that amount of travel of the seat post in and out isn't going to change the butts position with respect to the riders reach to the bars much. Nor is moving the saddle fore and aft, which isn't really for adjusting reach to the bars. And if you have to buy a seat post with lager set back then that can get expensive if your bike has anything but a round seat post.
What is left is the position of the hands w.r.t. the bottom bracket, and that cat be modeled using frame stack and frame reach.
Sure but not if the bike manufacturer doesn't give you the information about the size stem as well as the bars so you can figure their reach and drop into the modeling. Drop bars have way different reach and drop to them. Currently I'm liking the short reach shallow drop bars on my new bike more than the more conventional drop and reach of my much older bike.

And your stem and handle bar height will also depend on how long that steerer tube is sticking up out of the head tube. I've never seen that given in bike specs or geometry. Though most new bikes seem to come with about 30 mm of spacers under the stem.

Still, I think I'm missing what ever it is you are trying to convey. Maybe some future time in another thread all will become clear! <grin>
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Old 05-23-22, 04:11 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by csport
The position of the handlebars is determined by the point where the stem clamps the steerer.
The position of the handlebar is determined by the height, angle, and length of the stem.

Originally Posted by csport
The horizontal/vertical distance from the bottom bracket to this point is the (effective) reach/stack. If there are no spacers, it coincides with the stack/reach from the frame geometry chart.
Even without spacers, the height of the headset places that point higher than the frame stack (photo 1). And regardless of headset and spacers, the only way the handlebar height will equal the stack height is if you use a negative rise stem that places it at that height (photo 2).





Last edited by Rolla; 05-23-22 at 04:29 PM.
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Old 05-23-22, 08:18 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Yep, I pretty much said the same thing. So is this an argument about who said it first? <grin>
I apologize if I was arguing for no reason. Thanks for elaborating on the details! Then the takehome for the OP is to check that the saddle can be set according to the fit (especially for the high end bikes with non-round seatposts) and check for the effects of the differences between the stems, handlebars and levers. This needs to be done because the complete bike may come with components different from the bike the fit was done on.

Originally Posted by Rolla
The position of the handlebar is determined by the height, angle, and length of the stem.
You are quoting a part of the post, in the end it says that we assume the same stem:
Originally Posted by csport
Of course what matters is the distance from the bottom bracket to the contact points, and the frame with the prescribed stack and reach should be combined with the prescribed stem/handlebars/levers (or similar), otherwise the fit will be thrown off.
Originally Posted by Rolla
Even without spacers, the height of the headset places that point higher than the frame stack (photo 1).
Good point regarding the headset, I agree that I phrased it loosely. The main point still stands: adding L mm of spacers is equivalent to magically extending the head tube by L mm at the top. We can be purists and say that the stack/reach does not change, but the "effective" stack/reach (as Kapusta correctly calls it) changes. That was all I was trying to say: if the stack/reach is off, it may be corrected for by adding spacers (instead of changing the stem as the OP says).
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Old 05-23-22, 08:36 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by csport
The main point still stands: adding L mm of spacers is equivalent to magically extending the head tube by L mm at the top. We can be purists and say that the stack/reach does not change, but the "effective" stack/reach changes. That was all I was trying to say: if the stack/reach is off, it may be corrected for by adding spacers (instead of changing the stem as the OP says).
Agreed. But for the sake of clarity and accuracy, I think it's important to understand that words like stack and reach have very specific meanings. If the OP conflates handlebar height and stack, he might end up with a very oddly proportioned frame.

Also, while spacers indeed establish an "effective" stack of a frame, they don't have any effect on the top tube slope, like a higher "actual" stack often does. That might be a consideration when considering standover height.

Cheers.
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Old 05-25-22, 03:31 AM
  #33  
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The old 60cm Norco Cabot is 380mm reach. 634mm stack. Standover 836mm.

Canti frame that also has disc mounts. Max tyre looks to be around 35mm?

Has a 450mm chainstay, so you might not find the ride peppy enough.
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Old 05-28-22, 07:35 PM
  #34  
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OP, have you seen a PT to help with the tendonitis?
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Old 06-01-22, 06:50 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Korina
OP, have you seen a PT to help with the tendonitis?
Yeah, I am seeing a PT and things are improving. Meanwhile I'm thinking of getting a CoMotion but that'd take 5-9months. If I do, I may find something now at an LBS that will be rideable in the meantime unlike my fixed gear road bike. Maybe a A1 Renegade as rec'd above or a Marin nicasio/4corners / something that's cheaper and I'll hopefully be able to sell once I get the co-mo and only be out a few hundred which I'll think of as a rental??
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Old 06-03-22, 06:03 AM
  #36  
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Hi, have you considered an old, touring bike? Reynolds 351 tubing, 27 x 1 1/4 tyres, drop bars, costs you next to nothing while you wait for the ‘perfect’ bike. Raleigh, Peugeot, Dawes will all fit the bill.
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Old 06-05-22, 01:35 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by wbusby1
Yeah, I am seeing a PT and things are improving. Meanwhile I'm thinking of getting a CoMotion but that'd take 5-9months. If I do, I may find something now at an LBS that will be rideable in the meantime unlike my fixed gear road bike. Maybe a A1 Renegade as rec'd above or a Marin nicasio/4corners / something that's cheaper and I'll hopefully be able to sell once I get the co-mo and only be out a few hundred which I'll think of as a rental??
Have you looked into a Hybrid Bicycle? Some of them meet your criteria as an all around bike, good for road, gravel, commuting, grocery getter. I have a 2022 Large Frame Trek Verve 2 Disk that is marketed towards people with bad knees. It’s a very comfortable bike, and can be set up for light touring/bikepacking.

I am not sure where you are in the PNW, but my Verve is up for sale for $600.00 without Rack And Panniers, $700 with rack and panniers.
https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/b...colorCode=grey


Bontrager MIK Disk Rear Rack with large Commuter Paniers and MIL Rear Trunk


Bontrager DuoTrap S+ sensor and computer included


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Old 06-06-22, 03:10 PM
  #38  
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Thanks for the responses everyone. I purchased a cheapish gravel bike (KHS grit 55) at an LBS that will work with my desired fit. I will be riding it for next 7-9 months while I wait for my co-motion klatch.
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